Caledonian Sleeper

[MrEd]

The split-out of the Caledonian Sleeper was necessary for any meaningful level of investment in the service to happen. Serco have (had?) a 15-year franchise agreement, which is one of the longest post-privatisation franchise agreements ever agreed upfront. This would provide enough time for the new rolling stock and experience to be delivered and kinks hammered out for the service to mature and become more self-sustainable.

You can criticise the government for trying to turn the sleeper into a cruise ship on rails but that's the only possible future for the service given the ever-decreasing daytime LDHS journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Once HS2 gets Scotland-London times to around 3 hours it's game over for the sleeper as well as air, as you could get a 6am train down and be in London at 9am. The recent renaissance of night trains on the continent isn't the same, since these are typically on routes which will remain uncompetitive by daytime high speed rail services. What you want is to get to 2030 or so in a state where demand for places north of Glasgow and Edinburgh is high enough that you can change the lowland/highland split (e.g. serving Glasgow only by a permanently lengthened WHL sleeper) without the economics getting worse.

I agree with this, but these arguments in my view only apply to the Lowlander (which in my view is unlikely to survive beyond the end of this franchise, and which has limited ‘cruise train’ potential as it is with its near-midnight departures and 7am arrivals). Even with HS2, a journey from London to Inverness or Fort William could still take well over six, if not over seven hours (depending on how well connections work at Waverley/in Glasgow), which means that the best part of a day is wasted travelling (which businesspeople and leisure travellers alike would wish to avoid, simply because it’s wasted time). Clearly, as I see it, there will still be a market for an Inverness and a Fort William sleeper as a functional service as well as a tourist attraction- especially as Fort William does not have, and probably will never have, an airport. (Aberdeen is a different story, I think).

 

[flitwickbeds]

Luton will be quicker when the transit opens (hopefully soon!). 30 mins from St Pancras to Security. Security to plane can’t be more than 5 minutes or so.

30 minutes is probably stretching it. Maybe from departing St Pancras to arriving at the terminal (not security).

But even that is only possible once an hour during most of the day.

 

[Norther Monkey]

In my old job I did 3-4 return trips a month from Aberdeen to work in London. As I've never been on either big bucks or expenses for travel Serco's pricing pushed me out of the cabins and a combination of desperately uncomfortable seats and bitterly cold aircon meant the seats became a very last resort (despite being very reasonably priced).

I may use it again for a leisure trip as a treat but for commuting, sadly, the airlines will be my first choice in the future (assuming the price differential remains the same post COVID).

 

[Kite159]

Its a franchise requirement to have 31 seats available on each individual service. That won't change.

And when does that franchise (written up before Covid hit) expire, if it hasn't already been replaced with a new agreement with Transport Scotland in the current world?

 

[Bald Rick]

30 minutes is probably stretching it. Maybe from departing St Pancras to arriving at the terminal (not security).

But even that is only possible once an hour during most of the day.

It will be twice an hour from May (fingers crossed). And Luton are advertising it as 30 mins. I posted elsewhere how it could be done - 19 mins train, 2 mins up the stairs to the shuttle, 2 minute average wait, 3 minute trip, that gives you 4 minutes to get to security. Easy!

 

[TimboM]

And when does that franchise (written up before Covid hit) expire, if it hasn't already been replaced with a new agreement with Transport Scotland in the current world?

2030.

 

[Carntyne]

Was the sleeper not full (at substantially higher prices) before COVID hit, apart from the Aberdeen portion?

 

[JModulo]

Was the sleeper not full (at substantially higher prices) before COVID hit, apart from the Aberdeen portion?

Yes, and not just 1 or 2 occasions either. It depends on how you class full though as its also at a time where the full train couldn't be booked due to faulty rooms.

 

[Bald Rick]

Was the sleeper not full (at substantially higher prices) before COVID hit, apart from the Aberdeen portion?

Yes, frequently. I got a full northbound Glasgow on a Wednesday in late September.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Think I have only paid for 4 out of 13 trips I've had on the MK5s. The rest ended up being refunded due to faults.

Your appealing to the gambler in me !.

Given CS's extortionate prices it does make you wonder how they (First) were able to make any money off of the Bargain Berths?... or was it so much cheaper operating as part of the ScotRail franchise?

Probably has lost the economy of being part of a larger whole. Investment in Mk5s will have cost but I am not sure anyone loves them. The crunch would have come when the Mk3s needed replacing but how long before they really were beyond nursing along ?. That is going to be so much more the case with the Mk5s as there is a lot more technology to go out of date with them !.

 

[Bald Rick]

The crunch would have come when the Mk3s needed replacing but how long before they really were beyond nursing along ?

They needed replacing !

 

[Peter Sarf]

They needed replacing !

I just wonder how badly. Or put another way how much it would have cost to re-furbish them mechanically and cosmetically ?.

Do the Mk5 sleepers offer a benefit over re-furbishing Mk3 sleepers ?.

 

[Bald Rick]

I just wonder how badly. Or put another way how much it would have cost to re-furbish them mechanically and cosmetically ?.

Do the Mk5 sleepers offer a benefit over re-furbishing Mk3 sleepers ?.

I think it’s safe to say it was cheaper in the long run to buy new.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think it’s safe to say it was cheaper in the long run to buy new.

Thanks.

 

[Iskra]

I think it’s safe to say it was cheaper in the long run to buy new.

Really? When you add in the the need for new locomotives, including the disruption caused by the new fleet and all the re-training? GWR obviously felt otherwise...

*I've not been able to travel on Mk5's yet to observe whether I think they were worth it, but the Night Riviera refurb is excellent.

 

[Mordac]

Really? When you add in the the need for new locomotives, including the disruption caused by the new fleet and all the re-training? GWR obviously felt otherwise...

*I've not been able to travel on Mk5's yet to observe whether I think they were worth it, but the Night Riviera refurb is excellent.

GWR didn't have any Mk2 seated and club coaches though.

 

[Iskra]

GWR didn't have any Mk2 seated and club coaches though.

True, but there have been plenty of Mk3's and Mk4's released which could have potentially solved that, if they'd have been that way inclined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, but there have been plenty of Mk3's and Mk4's released which could have potentially solved that, if they'd have been that way inclined.

Apart from the issue that the train is of maximum length, which is why those vehicles aren't already Mk3s.

The Mk5s are 22m vehicles, precisely to avoid this issue.

 

[Iskra]

Apart from the issue that the train is of maximum length, which is why those vehicles aren't already Mk3s.

The Mk5s are 22m vehicles, precisely to avoid this issue.

Fair enough

 

[Gonzoiku]

I think it’s safe to say it was cheaper in the long run to buy new.

Methinks in the long run we will discover just how cheap. Remind me, what does CAF stand for?

GZ

 

[MrEd]

Really? When you add in the the need for new locomotives, including the disruption caused by the new fleet and all the re-training? GWR obviously felt otherwise...

*I've not been able to travel on Mk5's yet to observe whether I think they were worth it, but the Night Riviera refurb is excellent.

There’s only so long you could have kept patching up the old stock, and that’s before you took into account the issue of PRM compliance. Transport Scotland insisted (perhaps quite rightly) that the sleeper stock should meet the stringent standards after 1/1/20, including power-operated doors, information screens, audible announcements etc. At the end of the day, the sleeper is seen as a flagship service and it doesn’t leave a very good impression if the rolling stock seems antiquated or sub-standard in any way (even if it’s clean and reliable). GWR relies on derogations which will only last for so long. The Mk2s were almost past the point of no return, and the Mk3s were in poor condition. There was also the issue that Transport Scotland needed the franchise to last until 2030- what would have happened when the Mk3s were life expired?

I‘m not sure what GWR’s plans are for when the Mk3s really need to be retired, as they won’t last forever. The cynic in me suggests that they might want to do away with it in the middle of this decade. I hope I’m proved wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I‘m not sure what GWR’s plans are for when the Mk3s really need to be retired, as they won’t last forever. The cynic in me suggests that they might want to do away with it in the middle of this decade. I hope I’m proved wrong.

Going a bit OT, but I can't see the Lowlander surviving HS2, so those sets could move south.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I‘m not sure what GWR’s plans are for when the Mk3s really need to be retired, as they won’t last forever. The cynic in me suggests that they might want to do away with it in the middle of this decade. I hope I’m proved wrong.

There are no GWR plans as it will be up to the DfT to decide what happens in the future. Until then it’s the Mk 3s.

 

[PG]

The crunch would have come when the Mk3s needed replacing but how long before they really were beyond nursing along ?. That is going to be so much more the case with the Mk5s as there is a lot more technology to go out of date with them !.

Are the Mk5s going to become like an old phone - unable to get the latest updates as the manufacturer has ceased support because they want everyone to upgrade to a newer model?
Surely this isn't the case for an item of railway rolling stock which should, with the right maintenance, be able to run for 30+ years.

EDIT : I suppose spares could be an issue if parts go out of production, but thats different to saying that increased use of technology is what will make it difficult to keep them running in the future.

 

[MrEd]

Going a bit OT, but I can't see the Lowlander surviving HS2, so those sets could move south.

I can’t either. You’re probably right. I suspect that we’ll need pairs of 73/9s to work them, unless there is another class that can be converted with Dellners and the required ETS? Perhaps the 57s can be converted?

 

[Speed43125]

I can’t either. You’re probably right. I suspect that we’ll need pairs of 73/9s to work them, unless there is another class that can be converted with Dellners and the required ETS? Perhaps the 57s can be converted?

Perhaps they will be able to make do with some Electric traction by then....

 

[47271]

Are the Mk5s going to become like an old phone - unable to get the latest updates as the manufacturer has ceased support because they want everyone to upgrade to a newer model?
Surely this isn't the case for an item of railway rolling stock which should, with the right maintenance, be able to run for 30+ years.

EDIT : I suppose spares could be an issue if parts go out of production, but thats different to saying that increased use of technology is what will make it difficult to keep them running in the future.

The dodgy tech is one thing, but before that becomes obsolete the mk5s are more likely to fall apart because they're so badly designed and built. Between the shocking ride and the interiors that were already crumbling within six months of introduction, I fear that they'll either need complete rebuilding or scrapping at the end of the current franchise.

Maybe they've transformed them during Covid, I'll be ready to eat my words if they have...

 

[Clansman]

Maybe they've transformed them during Covid, I'll be ready to eat my words if they have...

I made a trip last month. Trust me, they've not.

Hope you never had your hopes up too high - it is Serco and CAF after all!!

 

[Andrew1395]

The split-out of the Caledonian Sleeper was necessary for any meaningful level of investment in the service to happen. Serco have (had?) a 15-year franchise agreement, which is one of the longest post-privatisation franchise agreements ever agreed upfront. This would provide enough time for the new rolling stock and experience to be delivered and kinks hammered out for the service to mature and become more self-sustainable.

You can criticise the government for trying to turn the sleeper into a cruise ship on rails but that's the only possible future for the service given the ever-decreasing daytime LDHS journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh. Once HS2 gets Scotland-London times to around 3 hours it's game over for the sleeper as well as air, as you could get a 6am train down and be in London at 9am. The recent renaissance of night trains on the continent isn't the same, since these are typically on routes which will remain uncompetitive by daytime high speed rail services. What you want is to get to 2030 or so in a state where demand for places north of Glasgow and Edinburgh is high enough that you can change the lowland/highland split (e.g. serving Glasgow only by a permanently lengthened WHL sleeper) without the economics getting worse.

Would it have been better to put the sleepers into the West Coast franchise. Recreating the synergy that existed in pre 1996 Inter City?

HS2 may change many things on Anglo-Scot flows, but it will be operating in a very different world to the one that existed when conceived. By the time it opens the UK many not exist anymore.

 

[47271]

I made a trip last month. Trust me, they've not.

Hope you never had your hopes up too high - it is Serco and CAF after all!!

Oh well. I had a fond idea that they'd have made the effort to come up with a solution to the knocking bogies...