Caledonian Sleeper

[doc7austin]

No. Good diagrams for each type of coach are on seat61 by the way: https://www.seat61.com/sleeper-to-scotland.htm

ok, and where do passengers in the dining car go to toilet ?

 

[jfowkes]

ok, and where do passengers in the dining car go to toilet ?

Presumably the toilet in the sleeper coach next to it, or the one next to that if it's out of service.

 

[doc7austin]

It's a perfectly sensible policy. The seated coach is already hard to get a decent sleep in, without the additional disturbance of passengers coming in to use the loo.

Exactly that, people are trying to sleep in the seated car. .that's why the staff won't let you in

So here is a photo of an empty Seating Car.



You can see these green lights, indicating that the toilet is free.
Between the seating zone and the toilet is a glass door.

So the sleeping car or dining car passenger, trying to use that toilet -> who is this passenger going to disturb, if there is a glass door in between ?

 

[doc7austin]

Then use a different sleeping car toilet and stay out of the seated coach.

It's not rocket science. And not the "moral high ground" - rather plain old fashioned common sense. Something which is sadly lacking now.

Excuse me?

Example:

Car 1 -> Sleeping Car (with presumably working toilets)
Car 2 -> Sleeping Car (with faulty toilets)
Car 3 -> Dining Car
Car 4 -> Seating Car

Sleeping Car passengers in Car 2 is looking for a toilet.
By luck the passenger is walking towards the next car (Car 3).
The passenger does not find a toilet in Car 3.
So the passenger walks further.

The passenger is right in the transition zone between Car 3 and 4.
The passenger can see the green-light indicator in Car 4 and wants to go there.
There is glass door between the transition zone and the seating compartment.

You are telling me that it is "plain old fashioned common sense" that the passenger now has to go from Car 4 to Car 1 to find a working toilet ?

Unless you care to explain why you *had* to use that specific toilet, the request of staff seems perfectly reasonable and you only really made yourself seem fairly obtuse?

It should be 100% common sense in my world that any passenger would want to use the toilet in Car 4, when being located right in between Car 3 and 4 - and not in Car 1.

 

[jfowkes]

So the sleeping car or dining car passenger, trying to use that toilet -> who is this passenger going to disturb, if there is a glass door in between ?

Possibly the noise of someone entering/using/exiting that toilet would disturb someone sat right at that end. Maybe not likely but I wouldn't like to be that passenger.

You are telling me that it is "plain old fashioned common sense" that the passenger now has to go from Car 4 to Car 1 to find a working toilet ?

You would have been walking back to car 2 anyway so it's not exactly a big ask.

 

[Deafdoggie]

A prime example of everything that is wrong with the world.

Well done CS for telling you to p*ss off

And that's exactly what's wrong with railway customer service. Why do people pay to put up with an attitude like that?

Staff being rude isn't very good, though, is it? Surely it should be "I'm afraid that toilet is only for seated car passengers, Sir, can you use this toilet here please? By the way I'm really sorry yours isn't working, what is your room number? OK, I'll make sure a full refund is on the way to your card, nothing else for you to do, you'll receive it in a few days."

These are premium passengers who have paid a fortune and should be treated in the deferential and polite manner they would be in a premium hotel, not a motorway service station Travelodge.

That's exactly what should have happened, but sounds like it didn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless there's signage saying otherwise, the natural thing to do is to use the nearest toilet.

When there are counterintuitive rules, the best thing to do is make them clear with signage to avoid embarrassment.

 

[doc7austin]

You would have been walking back to car 2 anyway so it's not exactly a big ask.

No, because it was breakfast time. I stayed in Car 2.

Moreover, if all toilets are broken in Car 2, I'd expect a line in Car 1 for the public toilets.

Unless there's signage saying otherwise, the natural thing to do is to use the nearest toilet.

When there are counterintuitive rules, the best thing to do is make them clear with signage to avoid embarrassment.

Well yes, so I'll be contacting Scottish Rail Holdings now. If I would believe Google they are the Franchisor.

Caledonian Sleeper Franchise Update June 2023 | Caledonian Sleeper

Caledonian Sleeper trains offer luxury train travel whether you’re travelling for business or pleasure. Discover Scotland on the new Caledonian Sleeper trains.

www.sleeper.scot

From 25th June 2023, Caledonian Sleeper services will be provided by an arm’s length company, Scottish Rail Holdings (SRH) which is wholly owned and controlled by the Scottish Government.

 

[jfowkes]

No, because it was breakfast time. I stayed in Car 2.

The person in your example started in car 2: "Sleeping Car passengers in Car 2 is looking for a toilet."

If you start in the dining car, you're right next to the seated car so you haven't exactly walked for miles to find you need to go somewhere else.

 

[MrJeeves]

So the sleeping car or dining car passenger, trying to use that toilet -> who is this passenger going to disturb, if there is a glass door in between ?

The toilet is at the opposite end of the seated coach to the restaurant.

You have to walk from the restaurant, past the luggage and bikes area, past all of the seats, through the glass door, then to the toilet.

 

[doc7austin]

The toilet is at the opposite end of the seated coach to the restaurant.

You have to walk from the restaurant, past the luggage and bikes area, past all of the seats, through the glass door, then to the toilet.

Sorry, @MrJeeves - your statement is completely wrong.

Let's recall:
Car 1 -> Sleeping Car (with presumably working toilets)
Car 2 -> Sleeping Car (with faulty toilets)
Car 3 -> Dining Car
Car 4 -> Seating Car

What you see in this photos:

Left: Car 4 (seating car)
Right: Car 3 (dining car)

The luggage and bike area is on the far left of this photo.

That means it is possible to access the toilet in the seating car (on the left) directly from the dining car (on the right), without having to open the glass door.

 

[norbitonflyer]

ok, and where do passengers in the dining car go to toilet ?

In the adjacent sleeping car, or one of the others if that isn't working.

 

[doc7austin]

The person in your example started in car 2: "Sleeping Car passengers in Car 2 is looking for a toilet."

If you start in the dining car, you're right next to the seated car so you haven't exactly walked for miles to find you need to go somewhere else.

?

The toilets in Car 2 are broken.
It is 100% common sense then for the passenger to go the next car.
And the next car is the dining car (Car 3). And the passenger didn't know that this entire car doesn't feature any toilet.
And then when having walked through Car 3 the passenger spots a toilet - at the beginning of Car 4.

In the adjacent sleeping car, or one of the others if that isn't working.

?
Passenger is in the dining car (Car 3). Passenger spots a free toilet in Car 4.
Why do you think it is Common Sense to expect from the passenger to walk all the way to Car 1 ?

 

[jfowkes]

?

The toilets in Car 2 are broken.
It is 100% common sense then for the passenger to go the next car.
And the next car is the dining car (Car 3). And the passenger didn't know that this entire car doesn't feature any toilet.
And then when having walked through Car 3 the passenger spots a toilet - at the beginning of Car 4.

Oh, I think I see now. You mentioned "it was breakfast time" which made me think you actually started in the dining car.

But you want to do car 2 (cabin)->car 2 (toilet)->car 3 (breakfast)->car 2 (cabin), but with a broken toilet and going the wrong way that means car 2 (cabin)->car 4 (no entry)->car 1 (toilet)->car 3 (breakfast)->car 2 (cabin). Is that right? If so I can see that it's a bit of a pain.

 

[doc7austin]

But you want to do car 2 (cabin)->car 2 (toilet)->car 3 (breakfast)->car 2 (cabin), but with a broken toilet and going the wrong way that means car 2 (cabin)->car 4 (no entry)->car 1 (toilet)->car 3 (breakfast)->car 2 (cabin). Is that right? If so I can see that it's a bit of a pain.

Sorry, I am lost.

Let's recall:
Car 1 -> Sleeping Car (with presumably working toilets)
Car 2 -> Sleeping Car (with faulty toilets)
Car 3 -> Dining Car
Car 4 -> Seating Car

That was my movement:

car 2 (no working toilet) -> car 3 (no toilet at all) -> car 4 (free toilet in sight - without having to move through the entire seating car)
-> at that point I was yelled at.
car 3 (i stayed there because it was breakfast time); sorry, I have said car 2 previously.

 

[BRX]

If you're sitting in the dining car, it's fairly clear that for the toilet you go through the door that leads to the adjacent sleeper coach (there's a toilet occupied indicator next to the door). This might not be immediately obvious if you've just walked into the dining car from the sleeping cars, although, to do so, you'd need to have walked past the big accessible toilet at the end of the sleeper coach.

If that accessible toilet was marked out of order it's understandable you might walk into the dining car and carry on down the train until finding the toilet in the sleeping coach.

If it was one of the occasions when the coaches were not in the right order (which happens sometimes) and the accessible coach was not positioned next to the dining car, then it would be possible to walk from a cabin to the dining car without passing a toilet.

Anyway, it all seems a bit moot, as the only real issue is whether the staff were rude to the passenger in telling them that they should not use that toilet, because it's fairly reasonable to ask sleeper passengers not to use the only one available to the seated passengers.

I've seen dining car staff (kind of) yell at seated passengers who walk through the dining car towards the sleeper section - I think because the passenger has already got some way down the carriage and the staff member is in the middle of trying to serve food or something.

 

[03_179]

If you were in car 2 why did you not just go to car 1?
Pretty simple really

 

[MrJeeves]

Sorry, @MrJeeves - your statement is completely wrong.

Let's recall:
Car 1 -> Sleeping Car (with presumably working toilets)
Car 2 -> Sleeping Car (with faulty toilets)
Car 3 -> Dining Car
Car 4 -> Seating Car

What you see in this photos:

Left: Car 4 (seating car)
Right: Car 3 (dining car)

The luggage and bike area is on the far left of this photo.

Here's a photo from the seated car I took last summer. This is the opposite end to the wheelchair accessible area (including toilet).

You can see the gangway into the next carriage (dining car) here, meaning that the toilet is only accessible by walking through the seated carriage.

This also matches the CS website's seat maps displaying the wheelchair section as the "end of the train", including for coach S on a Fort William service.

 

[jfowkes]

Sorry, I am lost.

Let's recall:
Car 1 -> Sleeping Car (with presumably working toilets)
Car 2 -> Sleeping Car (with faulty toilets)
Car 3 -> Dining Car
Car 4 -> Seating Car

That was my movement:

car 2 (no working toilet) -> car 3 (no toilet at all) -> car 4 (free toilet in sight - without having to move through the entire seating car)
-> at that point I was yelled at.
car 2 (i stayed there because it was breakfast time)

I'm a bit lost as well.

You went to the seated car and found you weren't allowed to use the toilet. At that stage, you already have to walk back as far as car 2, whether you use the seated car toilet or not. So asking you to use the toilet in car 1 is not really asking a lot. Go back to your coach, where you were going anyway, and then a bit further.

 

[MrJeeves]

If you're sitting in the dining car, it's fairly clear that for the toilet you go through the door that leads to the adjacent sleeper coach (there's a toilet occupied indicator next to the door). This might not be immediately obvious if you've just walked into the dining car from the sleeping cars, although, to do so, you'd need to have walked past the big accessible toilet at the end of the sleeper coach.

I think the point is that there isn't always a "adjacent sleeper coach" at that end?

There is a toilet indicator at this end of the club car which has the gangway doors in the middle (i.e., not the end with the food prep or staff areas):

Matching that with the seat map suggests that goes straight to the seated carriage where the only toilet would appear to be the other end of the seated car?

 

[doc7austin]

If you were in car 2 why did you not just go to car 1?
Pretty simple really

... because hindsight is always 20/20.

I didn't know beforehand that Car 3 (dining car) lacked a toilet.

Here's a photo from the seated car I took last summer. This is the opposite end to the wheelchair accessible area (including toilet).
You can see the gangway into the next carriage (dining car) here, meaning that the toilet is only accessible by walking through the seated carriage.
This also matches the CS website's seat maps displaying the wheelchair section as the "end of the train", including for coach S on a Fort William service.

Well, we are here in a rail forum.
Hence, it is no surprise that the cars from to time (mainly maintenance) are detached from each other. One turn there, another turn there - and you have a car 180 degree around than shown in the Caledonian Sleeper website.

And my photos proves that at the time of the incidence, the toilet of the seating car was right next to the dining car.

 

[BRX]

I think the point is that there isn't always a "adjacent sleeper coach" at that end?

I believe that sometimes the club car can end up the "wrong way around" but generally, yes you always use that end to reach the sleeper cars - that's the way it's designed.

And generally the "toilet" end of the seats matches with the "staff" end of the club car.

 

[doc7austin]

I'm a bit lost as well.

You went to the seated car and found you weren't allowed to use the toilet. At that stage, you already have to walk back as far as car 2, whether you use the seated car toilet or not. So asking you to use the toilet in car 1 is not really asking a lot. Go back to your coach, where you were going anyway, and then a bit further.

A. Yes, I got one number wrong 15 minutes ago.

car 2 (no working toilet) -> car 3 (no toilet at all) -> car 4 (free toilet in sight - without having to move through the entire seating car)
-> at that point I was yelled at.
car 3 (i stayed there because it was breakfast time); sorry, I have said car 2 previously.

So asking you to use the toilet in car 1 is not really asking a lot. Go back to your coach, where you were going anyway, and then a bit further.

That never happened. The staff didn't say, please go to car 1.

In the written correspondence with the customer service of Caledonian Sleeper, it was implied by CS that the staff, that had yelled at me, was not aware of the broken toilets.
The issue here is that the train manager (who is running around all the time and who I saw previously in the sleeping cars) then came to the area between Car 3 and Car 4. And he iterated that there was a policy in place that sleeping car pax were not allowed to use the toilets in the seating car.

 

[03_179]

... because hindsight is always 20/20.

I didn't know beforehand that Car 3 (dining car) lacked a toilet.

It's common sense not hindsight.

 

[MrJeeves]

I believe that sometimes the club car can end up the "wrong way around" but generally, yes you always use that end to reach the sleeper cars - that's the way it's designed.

And generally the "toilet" end of the seats matches with the "staff" end of the club car.

So... the complete opposite way around from CS's own seat maps? That'd mean everyone buying seated tickets would end up facing the wrong way, which seems a bit silly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's common sense not hindsight.

What's common sense about the dining car lacking a toilet? I'd have expected there to be a toilet in the dining car, that being where alcohol is served, and alcohol tends to create (a) drunk, noisy people and (b) people who need the toilet a lot.

I'm absolutely astonished there isn't one there to be honest.

None of this excuses staff shouting at premium passengers.

 

[03_179]

I mean that common sense would be to try the other sleeping vehicle (car 1) before venturing up the entire train length.

No it not an excuse for shouting at passengers.
But we only have one side of the incident.

 

[doc7austin]

It's common sense not hindsight.

Could you please explain it to me.
The passenger is located right in the middle of Car 2.
How is it common sense for the passenger to go to Car 1 instead of Car 3 ? Esp. when it was breakfast time and breakfast is served in Car 3.

I mean that common sense would be to try the other sleeping vehicle (car 1) before venturing up the entire train length

Sorry, that makes no sense at all.
Imagine an ordinary traveller, who is not aware what kind of cars are located left or right of his car 2.
The probability is 50% that he will walk to car 1 looking for a working toilet.
The probability is 50% that he will walk to car 3 looking for a working toilet.

 

[Flying Snail]

At this point this is turning into an exceptionally tedious tit for tat argument.

The fact is they are perfectly entitled to have a rule barring sleeper passengers from the seated coach and as seated passengers are no longer allowed even order food from the lounge car the opposite clearly also applies.

Your only legitimate complaint is the rudeness of the staff member in telling you you weren't allowed in the seated coach.

Rude CS staff is a long running issue, they also have plenty of excellent staff and some middling ones but I have had more than enough encounters with outright rude and lazy staff over the years for it to be more than just the exceptional rogue.

 

[WAB]

I mean that common sense would be to try the other sleeping vehicle (car 1) before venturing up the entire train length.

The next carriage along is hardly the whole train length... It is regrettable that many posters here are struggling to see this from the perspective of an ordinary passenger without a detailed knowledge of the layout of the carriages. It was perfectly reasonable for the poster to try the dining car. It's fair enough for there to be a rule against using the seated coach toilets but that needs to be communicated in a polite manner, not shouted.