Caledonian Sleeper

[Samsanbor]

Well, I thought that the staff behaved in a very rude way.

What happened - the toilet in the ensuite cabin stopped working.
I overheard the passenger in the adjacent cabin complaining about the same thing.


Next to our sleeping car was the dining car. So I went there. Unfortunately, I was not able to find a toilet in that car. So I walked further - into the seating car - well I tried at least.
The staff yelled at me - that it was policy that sleeping car passenger are not allowed to use the toilets in the seating car. I was appalled, esp. by the rudeness of the staff.


Well yes, as I was not a seating car passenger that policy should not apply.


Where is the toilet in the dining car ?


... because I couldn't find a toilet in the dining car.


And that policy I would like to check with the "owners" (franchisee /franchiser or whomever you want to call them).



The fact that the passengers in the adjacent cabin were complaining about that as well, leads me to believe that there are indeed bigger problems.


... being yelled at by the train staff.

Did you speak to the train manager at the time of this "incident"?

 

[WAB]

Again I say we have only one side of the incident

I'm feeling generous enough to presume @doc7austin is telling the truth, as is often necessary on fora. If we take it that he was shouted at despite not doing anything particularly terrible, them nothing I've said is negated, and he has a very valid complaint.

 

[doc7austin]

At this point this is turning into an exceptionally tedious tit for tat argument.

The fact is they are perfectly entitled to have a rule barring sleeper passengers from the seated coach.

We can close that argument - once I am getting a reply from Scottish Rail Holdings about the existence of this rule.
So I have serious doubts that this rule even exists. The problems with toilets (esp. at the end of a 12 hour journey) were documented by other trip reports, as well.

Did you speak to the train manager at the time of this "incident"?

I was talking to the train manager after the incident - not before. He explained to me that rule. I had the profound feeling that he made up the rule in order to protect the staff, who had yelled at me.

btw: another staff member, who was really nice, told me afterwards that the cold weather in the highlands often leads to broken toilets and showers.

 

[BRX]

So... the complete opposite way around from CS's own seat maps? That'd mean everyone buying seated tickets would end up facing the wrong way, which seems a bit silly.

Well, the seats will face different ways not only northbound and southbound but within each journey due to the reversal at Edinburgh.
My understanding is that this is the "correct" arrangement but I might be wrong, and I've definitely seen the sleeper sometimes running with things in the "wrong" order on occasion.

 

[doc7austin]

View attachment 158537

That was the configuration of the train (except the left/right side was 180 different in the sleeping car and seating car).
Top: Car 4
Middle: Car 3
Bottom: Car 2

The yelling started when I was walking just between Car 3 and Car 4. I even saw the green light of the Car 4 toilet. And there is a glass door between the toilet and seating zone.

 

[WF4HA5HE]

We can close that argument - once I am getting a reply from Scottish Rail Holdings about the existence of this rule.
So I have serious doubts that this rule even exists. The problems with toilets (esp. at the end of a 12 hour journey) were documented by other trip reports, as well.

Out of interest what outcome are you actually looking for from CS? Because surley all you'll get at best is, sorry this rule doesn't exist and our staff where wrong and we will pass your staff complaint onto the relevant crew manager....

 

[Samsanbor]

We can close that argument - once I am getting a reply from Scottish Rail Holdings about the existence of this rule.
So I have serious doubts that this rule even exists. The problems with toilets (esp. at the end of a 12 hour journey) were documented by other trip reports, as well.



I was talking to the train manager after the incident - not before. He explained to me that rule. I had the profound feeling that he made up the rule in order to protect the staff, who had yelled at me.

btw: another staff member, who was really nice, told me afterwards that the cold weather in the highlands often leads to broken toilets and showers.

I am genuinely very sorry this has happened to you.
I'm sure the situation wasn't managed properly by the staff.
Regardless the rule, let's put that a part now, you clearly haven't been directed to the closest suitable toilet to help you out.
I'm aware my comment here won't help to fix your experience, all of that was manageable simply offering you a bit of extra informations.

 

[BRX]

That was the configuration of the train (except the left/right side was 180 different in the sleeping car and seating car).
Top: Car 4
Middle: Car 3
Bottom: Car 2

The yelling started when I was walking just between Car 3 and Car 4. I even saw the green light of the Car 4 toilet. And there is a glass door between the toilet and seating zone.

Then you can see that if you had come out of your cabin in Car 2, you would have walked past one of the large accessible toilets just before entering the dining car. But maybe that was out of order too?

In any case, I'd say that all that is really relevant is whether they were rude to you. It's not unreasonable that they try and protect the seated car toilet for the inhabitants of the seated coach, because they don't have any others to use.

 

[Class15]

I think that @doc7austin is completely in the right here. How are they expected to know where the nearest coach with a toilet is? You have a 50/50 chance of walking the right way. How the staff were shouting at them I do not know and it puzzles me frankly.

 

[cb a1]

Must be about 6 years ago the travel agent my employer uses made a mistake with my booking on the CS and I ended up with a very expensive 1st class ticket but in the seats.
After a pretty poor night's sleep I went to use the seating car toilets and both were in use. Being a regular CS user, I headed to use another toilet. I was promptly physically blocked by a member of CS staff in the dining car and instructed in no uncertain terms that I could only use the toilets in the seating car.
I assumed that they didn't want the 'plebs' in the seats to use toilets in the rest of the train, but it sounds like the policy works both ways.

 

[al78]

I think I can see what happened and it reads like doc7austin was in the same car as I was last Friday/Saturday.

I'm guessing what happened is he came out of his cabin to use a toilet. The toilets in his car were out of order so he continued walking into the next car which happened to be the dining car. He couldn't find a toilet in there so walked through the dining car into the next one which is the seated accommodation and luggage/bikes (this sounds right as I remember hanging my bike then walking two cars down to get to my cabin). Apparently when he entered the seated accommodation car, there was a toilet right there, just beyond that toilet was a glass door separating the toilet from the seated passengers. He thought it was reasonable under the circumstances to use that toilet as it would be most unlikely to disturb anyone, at which point a member of staff told him very bluntly that he was not allowed to use that toilet. He didn't appreciate the member of staff's manner and thought it was illogical he shouldn't use that toilet given the faults on the toilets in the car he was residing and what he perceived as having no negative impact on the seated passengers. The sleeper train rule, however, is that passengers in cabins are forbidden from using the toilet in the seated car and the staff was correctly enforcing that rule if in a questionable manner.

The responses are pointing out the member of staff was correct so he cannot complain the rule was enforced unfairly or anything like that, only that the member of staff displayed unreasonable conduct, and upon finding the dining car contained no toilets, he should have turned around and headed for the car connected to the other end of his car and used a toilet in there. I can have sympathy for both sides. I accept that given the rules, one should really not have entered the seated car and should have looked for a functional toilet elsewhere. On the other hand, if the toilet in the seated accommodation was as described and segregated from the seated passengers and he was standing right next to it, would it have really been a problem to just let him use it instead of walking down more than two cars to find a valid toilet, given the aisles in the sleeper cars are very narrow and if people are half out their door getting themselves sorted, someone walking down cannot easily pass? In an ideal world the best thing to do is to minimise the amount of walking up and down you need to do.

 

[Blindtraveler]

On the one hand, this toilet hierarchy seems more than a little bit petty, but on the other hand seated passengers do now only have access to one toilet. And given that I've undertaken entire journeys where this facility has been out of use and a lengthy walk or crossed legs has been the alternative I can see perhaps why they're doing it

 

[Siemens Trains]

On many Sunday (and sometimes other) nights in the first half of the year, at least for the past few years, the CS is scheduled to use the East Coast Main Line instead of the West, in both directions.

It is impossible to run into Euston from the ECML, so the train has to reverse at Wembley and this is planned, some of us deliberately take the Sleeper when it goes this way. However it typically isn't delayed by such a lengthy time.

It must be infuriating for passengers eagerly anticipating arrival at their London terminus to be within touching distance of Euston only to have their hopes dashed by a 90 minute detour around Wembley. Especially if their journey also involved a toilet detour via another carriage!

 

[JamieL]

On the one hand, I would say there is no place for rude staff. On the other, some of the batty, unreasonable and entitled people they see must inevitably cause friction.

 

[Caleb2010]

Well, last Friday night I was on the highlander bound for Inverness and in the coach next to the club car (coach J)

As already mentioned, the car next to the club car is the accessible carriage and as such has an accessible toilet at each end.
they were both working perfectly well for the whole journey. We had a lovely Inverness crew who were pleasant throughout.

Could the problem be the op attitude? If I have ever had a problem, I have always found an attendant/host and made them aware and asked for advice. 90% of the time they will bend over backwards to help.

I’m not saying the staff were correct in their handling of the situation at all, but to suddenly come across a passenger from another part of the train must raise all kinds of red flags.

i didn’t see any dialog mentioned in the posts above so could be wrong but wouldn’t an “excuse me, I wonder if you could help…….” be better than thinking “I’m automatically entitled to…….” Especially when you are perfectly aware you would be passing through the club car where the hosts are.

 

[PG]

Never given this much thought before: I'm aware that the attendants/hosts work the full length of the journey. Does the same apply to the train manager/guard?

 

[WF4HA5HE]

Never given this much thought before: I'm aware that the attendants/hosts work the full length of the journey. Does the same apply to the train manager/guard?

Altho I don't know the answer to whether TMs work the entire journey i'm pretty sure out of all of CS train manager depots, Euston, Edinburgh North, Edinburgh South and Dalmuir, i think its only Euston TMs who sign from the highlands all the way to london?

 

[Butts]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I was at Leuchars on Friday and noticed an addition on the Platform namely a little mini CS Lounge that has sprouted since my last visit - probably pre-pandemic.

How long has it been there ?

 

[doc7austin]

Could the problem be the op attitude? If I have ever had a problem, I have always found an attendant/host and made them aware and asked for advice. 90% of the time they will bend over backwards to help.

Well, I am noticed that the toilet was not working in my Car 2. I talked to the fellow passengers from the adjacent cabin, which have complaint about the very same issue.

And no ! I didn't see any staff at that time. I only heard staff yelling at me, when I was walking between Car 3 and 4.

I’m not saying the staff were correct in their handling of the situation at all, but to suddenly come across a passenger from another part of the train must raise all kinds of red flags.

The train was only 4 cars long.
If the mere fact - that passengers from Car 1 and Car 2 (the 2 Sleeping Cars) are walking through the Dining Car (Car 3) during breakfast time - is causing red flags with the staff -> I am sorry, but that kind hyper-sensitivity is just sick in my eyes.

Then you can see that if you had come out of your cabin in Car 2, you would have walked past one of the large accessible toilets just before entering the dining car. But maybe that was out of order too?

That toilet was broken - at least it had a red light indicator on for the whole morning.

Altho I don't know the answer to whether TMs work the entire journey i'm pretty sure out of all of CS train manager depots, Euston, Edinburgh North, Edinburgh South and Dalmuir, i think its only Euston TMs who sign from the highlands all the way to london?

A big No on that.
I remember the nice chap, serving us meals the evening before in the dining car.
The party at my table was using the toilets that evening - both toilets in both directions.
That staff was not onboard this evening. It appears the staff in the Morning have joined us in Edinburgh.

 

[alistairlees]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I was at Leuchars on Friday and noticed an addition on the Platform namely a little mini CS Lounge that has sprouted since my last visit - probably pre-pandemic.

How long has it been there ?

Nearly six years! See https://www.serco.com/uk/media-and-...-opens-three-new-lounges-at-scottish-stations

 

[Butts]

Nearly six years! See https://www.serco.com/uk/media-and-...-opens-three-new-lounges-at-scottish-stations

Blimey I didn't realise it was that long since my last visit !!

How come Falkirk Grahamston didn't get one - fewer passengers ?

 

[doc7austin]

Sorry, but I think I know now what I was doing wrong.
The way I feel treated here reminds me of how I was treated aboard the train.

I had to explain the same incidence 3 times here.
And my lesson is - ..

This kind of hyper-sensitivity by rail staff is simply questionable in my eyes. This is my opinion. A sleeping car passenger dared to walk through the dining car during breakfast time.


In the UK it is apparently common sense that a passenger from a more premium cabin - standing between Car 3 and Car 4 right in front of a free toilet and a closed glass door - is being yelled away - and instead should have deduced himself to walk instead to Car 1 to the toilets.

Yes, train attendants in the US or Russia can behave in a very rough way. But with a 90% probability they would have allowed me to use the free toilet.
Not so on Caledonian Sleeper - no, the are insisting on policy, regardless of the fact that the toilets in the own Car 2 have not been working.

Why am I complaining to Scottish Rail Holdings ? Well, I want this policy changed.

 

[alistairlees]

Blimey I didn't realise it was that long since my last visit !!

How come Falkirk Grahamston didn't get one - fewer passengers ?

Almost none arriving, and very few departing at Falkirk Grahamston, so no call for a lounge.

Dundee is very quiet in the morning (I am usually the only person in it), but I don't know about the evening.

Fort William is pretty busy.

Stirling closed due to low usage.

 

[HST43257]

I used Perth and Dundee last summer and there were 1-2 other parties in the lounge on each occasion

 

[Butts]

Almost none arriving, and very few departing at Falkirk Grahamston, so no call for a lounge.

Dundee is very quiet in the morning (I am usually the only person in it), but I don't know about the evening.

Fort William is pretty busy.

Stirling closed due to low usage.

How long did it last and what was the building repurposed as ?

 

[Davester50]

Well, I want this policy changed.

If I were in the seats and was woken up by passengers from other classes traipsing through to use the loo, I'd be writing to SRH complaining that they should be staying in the class they paid for, and not mine.

 

[jagardner1984]

How it was handled sounds pretty poor - no one should ever be barked at - that does seem worthy of a complaint.

On the point of principle - in the sleeping cars there are two toilets for normally 10 people, several of whom have an en suite.

In the seated car, there is one toilet for 30 odd people, none of whom have an en suite.

Whilst there is a connecting door between seated and lounge, from the launch of the Mk5 - CS have effectively tried to describe that as a wall, more to emphasise Seated passengers cannot use the lounge, and by extension vice versa. There are additional sensitivities to people trying to sleep, and I suspect for example if the staff were to see “messing about” in the corridors of the sleeping cars, they might be similarly direct.

Therefore I can follow the logic of suggesting someone uses the toilet closest to their berth / seat, even though the tone is obviously indefensible.

Personally having seen the complaints process in a big corporate once or twice, I doubt this would go very much further than someone in a call centre on minimum wage sending you a copy and paste sorry you were poorly treated, we will look into this, maybe here’s a voucher.

In my experience specific complaints requesting specific responses almost never got that desired response, let alone a change in policy. Unfortunately that is the kind of generic customer service handling we have come to expect. “Sorry and Dismiss”. And actually that is a shame. Many of the complaints I read actually made valid points and could have made positive impact on the business, had anyone had the time or capacity or seniority to implement them.

I don’t doubt the level of frustration you feel about this, and you should obviously pursue the complaint as you see fit, but given the scale of the challenges facing CS / ScotRail / Scottish Rail Holdings / Transport Scotland / Scottish Government - with huge projects in the pipeline, service still not fully restored post Covid and ongoing staffing difficulties, doubts over the continued suitability of their main intercity fleet, the balance of electrification in the context of capital funding cuts, and mass fleet renewal, I suspect a complaint about toilet access policy on a Caledonian Sleeper service will be very much put in the category of “bigger fish to fry”, regardless of whether they see the merit of your complaint.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

My supposedly adult son has managed to persuade me to go all the way to London with him to listen to some games music at a concert (Sonic the Hedgehog Sonic Symphony ). At least it’s an excuse to try out the Mk5 Caledonian Sleeper which I haven’t yet been on.

I am wondering what the chances of getting in to the lounge – sorry Club – car are these days on a Friday night with a mere Classic Room ticket. Maybe we were lucky, but we always managed to get in to the lounge on the old Sleeper.

Sorry if this has been discussed recently but I haven’t managed to read through all the posts made since I last contributed to this thread.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well, last Friday night I was on the highlander bound for Inverness and in the coach next to the club car (coach J)

As already mentioned, the car next to the club car is the accessible carriage and as such has an accessible toilet at each end.
they were both working perfectly well for the whole journey. We had a lovely Inverness crew who were pleasant throughout.

Could the problem be the op attitude? If I have ever had a problem, I have always found an attendant/host and made them aware and asked for advice. 90% of the time they will bend over backwards to help.

I’m not saying the staff were correct in their handling of the situation at all, but to suddenly come across a passenger from another part of the train must raise all kinds of red flags.

i didn’t see any dialog mentioned in the posts above so could be wrong but wouldn’t an “excuse me, I wonder if you could help…….” be better than thinking “I’m automatically entitled to…….” Especially when you are perfectly aware you would be passing through the club car where the hosts are.

I can imagine that at the end of a long work day/night staff will be a bit near the end of patience. My assumption is either the staff member had started the night before from Euston or will have started in the far North and be in the later stages of returning there.

If the OP was way past the staff member then the staff member is going to have to shout loud enough to attract the attention of the OP as they walk further away with the back turned - so no visual clues to attract attention possible. I can imagine a sense of urgency.

As for the OP going the wrong way - like any train it is a 50:50 decision which way to start looking *. If I am starting at one end I know 100% which way I am going of course. If I judge I am no where near the centre of the train I am going to head away from the nearest end. If the first carriage I enter has no toilet (working or existing) I am not going to turn around and go back through my original coach unless I have reached the end of the train.

* = a danger here is to conclude that the simplest solution is to use the sink.... Won't get shouted at that way. CS ought to bear that risk in mind.

Sorry, but I think I know now what I was doing wrong.
The way I feel treated here reminds me of how I was treated aboard the train.

I had to explain the same incidence 3 times here.
And my lesson is - ..

This kind of hyper-sensitivity by rail staff is simply questionable in my eyes. This is my opinion. A sleeping car passenger dared to walk through the dining car during breakfast time.


In the UK it is apparently common sense that a passenger from a more premium cabin - standing between Car 3 and Car 4 right in front of a free toilet and a closed glass door - is being yelled away - and instead should have deduced himself to walk instead to Car 1 to the toilets.

Yes, train attendants in the US or Russia can behave in a very rough way. But with a 90% probability they would have allowed me to use the free toilet.
Not so on Caledonian Sleeper - no, the are insisting on policy, regardless of the fact that the toilets in the own Car 2 have not been working.

Why am I complaining to Scottish Rail Holdings ? Well, I want this policy changed.

Danger of being sensitive I am afraid.

Chances are you got hit with a Glaswegian accent - maybe ?.

Seems likely the seated coach toilet is kept exclusively for seated passengers for the reasons stated up thread - they are allowed no other choice and it follows that the toilet in their coach should not be overused by others. For both sets of passengers there is a need to avoid people moving round the train overnight disturbing each other.

How the above is handled is always going to be down to the people on the front line. The people higher up in the ivory tower need to understand that the reliability of toilets is perhaps not good enough. Good luck getting a message across to those higher up but that is what needs to happen.

I will mention the level of information elsewhere in this reply.

How it was handled sounds pretty poor - no one should ever be barked at - that does seem worthy of a complaint.

On the point of principle - in the sleeping cars there are two toilets for normally 10 people, several of whom have an en suite.

In the seated car, there is one toilet for 30 odd people, none of whom have an en suite.

Whilst there is a connecting door between seated and lounge, from the launch of the Mk5 - CS have effectively tried to describe that as a wall, more to emphasise Seated passengers cannot use the lounge, and by extension vice versa. There are additional sensitivities to people trying to sleep, and I suspect for example if the staff were to see “messing about” in the corridors of the sleeping cars, they might be similarly direct.

Therefore I can follow the logic of suggesting someone uses the toilet closest to their berth / seat, even though the tone is obviously indefensible.

Personally having seen the complaints process in a big corporate once or twice, I doubt this would go very much further than someone in a call centre on minimum wage sending you a copy and paste sorry you were poorly treated, we will look into this, maybe here’s a voucher.

In my experience specific complaints requesting specific responses almost never got that desired response, let alone a change in policy. Unfortunately that is the kind of generic customer service handling we have come to expect. “Sorry and Dismiss”. And actually that is a shame. Many of the complaints I read actually made valid points and could have made positive impact on the business, had anyone had the time or capacity or seniority to implement them.

I don’t doubt the level of frustration you feel about this, and you should obviously pursue the complaint as you see fit, but given the scale of the challenges facing CS / ScotRail / Scottish Rail Holdings / Transport Scotland / Scottish Government - with huge projects in the pipeline, service still not fully restored post Covid and ongoing staffing difficulties, doubts over the continued suitability of their main intercity fleet, the balance of electrification in the context of capital funding cuts, and mass fleet renewal, I suspect a complaint about toilet access policy on a Caledonian Sleeper service will be very much put in the category of “bigger fish to fry”, regardless of whether they see the merit of your complaint.

This post really sums it up.
Modern companies have plenty of complaints procedures but they only serve as box ticking processes. Fobbed em off, case closed.
In this case it really is a minor problem in the grand scheme of things. I agree with this.

BUT anyway :-

Could it be that the real problem is that the toilets are unreliable.....

Why do formations get disrupted - is this unavoidable and therefore a design/specification defect ?.

Perhaps the number of toilets it not good enough.
Also it seems that people from both sides of the divide can see information about toilets they cannot use - if so then that is bad design.

How about a clear sign or two.
"Sleeper passengers must not pass this point" - at/on the doorway to the seated coach.
"Seating passengers must stay in this coach" - dotted about in the seating coach.

How about making sure the door between the dining coach and the seated coach does not open except for staff ?.

 

[AberdeenBill]

I used Perth and Dundee last summer and there were 1-2 other parties in the lounge on each occasion

I remeber a trip to Aberdeen in July 2021 whe nfor some reason, the train didnt split at Edinburgh for the Aberdeen leg and we remained on the Inverness route for a change at Perth around 6am to catch the Scotrail to Aberdeen. Due to the sleeper running slightly late, we just missed the connection, but a lovely lady from CS, not in the spring of youth, cheerfully, directed us all to the Perth lounge, kept us going on teas and coffees and then walked us across to the platform about an hour later for next Aberdeen connection. It was customer service at it best, worth missing the connection for and added to the experience of the journey. I doubt i will ever see the Perth lounge again but glad i did.