Caledonian Sleeper

[chuff chuff]

They do.

https://www.sleeper.scot/faq/?search=firearms

Yes the sleeper does but scotrail stopped allowing firearms on their trains a year or three back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes the sleeper does but scotrail stopped allowing firearms on their trains a year or three back.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/our-rules-travel/carriage-firearms

That does seem to be abusing the "permission" line a little and thus is not in the spirit of the NRCoT entry. Perhaps the NRCoT needs "which will not be unreasonably withheld" adding.

"Some people didn't ask so we are not going to allow those who do ask. Those who don't ask (and hide them in something else) will obviously get away with it".

It'd make more sense to call the BTP on anyone who doesn't ask and has one visible...

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The marketing of the hotel on wheels has been a fiasco ...

It certainly fell flat ...

 

[Iskra]

The marketing was good. It's the rolling stock that can't live up to it that is the problem.

 

[MrEd]

Also as said previously WCRC had 3 locos at Fort William, I would hope they had at least been approached to see if they could offer any assistance. As a loco 30 minutes away is a heck of a lot handier than one in polmadie.

I’m sure that in the situation, WCRC were contacted, as they’ve used the WCRC 37s (which are the standby for the Jacobite steam workings) several times to rescue ailing 67s on the Sleeper in 2015. The problem is: were there any drivers (with driving hours left) who signed 37s (or whatever classes of loco WCRC had) at Fort William on a Friday night? If there weren’t, then there’s nothing that could have been done. The GBRf driver from the Sleeper could potentially have been ferried back to Fort William to pick one up, but then there’s the issue of protection of the failed train and whether the GBRf driver signed any of the WCRC classes at Fort William. Finding rescue locos is an extremely complex operation with lots of factors to be considered. I myself suspect that WCRC were contacted but that their locos could not be used as no competent crew were available. Some of the current GBRf drivers at Fort William probably did drive 37s regularly many moons ago but their traction knowledge has probably long lapsed.

 

[alangla]

Had Friday night’s failure occurred in Scotrail days, I personally very much doubt that Scotrail could have done anything different. Spare locos and drivers (who sign those locos) at Fort William would hardly have been guaranteed, and there’s also no guarantee that an RETB fitted 67 (or whatever- bearing in mind it would need both RETB fitted and to be cleared to work the WHL) and a driver who signed both it and the WHL would have been instantly available in the Glasgow area.

I reckon that in the ScotRail era this would have been sorted quicker, BUT that would probably be more down to circumstance than any planning- bear in mind that under ScotRail, traction was supplied by EWS. Also, EWS has the Fort William fuel contract and, I believe, the Alumina contract. Longannet was also still open & they had most of the contracts for that. The upshot is that there’s probably a much greater chance that an RETB 66 would be floating about at either Fort William or Mossend and a much better chance of there being a driver nearby. Fast forward to today & you’ve probably got a better chance of the stars aligning for GBRf than DB, albeit DB might still be marginally better off for drivers at Mossend. Thoughts?

Personally I hope this whole affair was just an aberration & won’t happen again. The 73/9s do seem to have settled down to a pretty good level of reliability overall

 

[6Z09]

The marketing was good. It's the rolling stock that can't live up to it that is the problem.

Do you really think that!
Kissing Dellners, gies peace, a lot of undeliverable nonsense.

 

[Mathew S]

Do you really think that!
Kissing Dellners, gies peace, a lot of undeliverable nonsense.

Where in the marketing material put out by CS were Dellners mentioned?

It's a shame that the service hasn't been able to deliver on what the marketing materials promised, but the marketing campaign itself was very well done indeed. In some ways, the fact that the marketing was as good as it was is part of the problem they're having at the moment; people are expecting perfection and getting, well, not that.

In an ideal world, they would have soft launched the new trains, and run them in for a few weeks or months prior to starting the serious marketing. Of course, time was against them and they took a gamble in going ahead with summer marketing hoping the new service would deliver. With the benefit of hindsight, we now know that was a mistake - as I'm sure do CS. However, with the stock already heavily delayed, and what seems like enormous pressure being applied by Transport for Scotland, they may not have had any other option.

 

[Chrism20]

I’d say the marketing has been good since the day they took over myself.

I’d go as far as to say that whoever it is that’s doing the marketing at the moment is probably the most competent behind the scenes person within the operation. They have clearly come up with the goods, sadly the operations side haven’t been able to match them.

 

[6Z09]

BBC news 11APR19, dellner couplers kissing ,no more bumps in the night , it's all there.
Marketing must be based on reality not a dream journey that's In someone's imagination.

 

[Highlandspring]

The marketing for CS is done by an external agency (my friend’s sister is involved in it).

 

[158756]

BBC news 11APR19, dellner couplers kissing ,no more bumps in the night , it's all there.
Marketing must be based on reality not a dream journey that's In someone's imagination.

Exactly. At what point does the advertising become misleading enough for the ASA to take a look at? Even assuming it is possible to live up to all the promises, it doesn't sound like they can reasonably expect to be delivering a top notch service any time soon.

 

[matacaster]

Perhaps the marketing could be amended to relate to the service provided so far?

Historically I would have thought the most applicable marketing campaign might have been the 'mystery tours' which I seem to remember from way back in the 1970's?

These would have featured surprise
*destinations - possibly not Dalmuir in middle of night though?
*traction - often a multiplicity of bash haulage favourites
*timings - often anybody's guess when one would arrive
*stock - which was only just fit for service (ie better than MK5's)

 

[Mathew S]

At what point does the advertising become misleading enough for the ASA to take a look at?

If you complain, they'll investigate it.
However, I should say that a news article/item/broadcast (like the one you mention on BBC news) isn't advertising.

 

[Chrism20]

One of the questions (just for fun apparently) on the Transport Focus questionnaire asks what category of hotel do you think the sleeper is.

 

[Far north 37]

I reckon that in the ScotRail era this would have been sorted quicker, BUT that would probably be more down to circumstance than any planning- bear in mind that under ScotRail, traction was supplied by EWS. Also, EWS has the Fort William fuel contract and, I believe, the Alumina contract. Longannet was also still open & they had most of the contracts for that. The upshot is that there’s probably a much greater chance that an RETB 66 would be floating about at either Fort William or Mossend and a much better chance of there being a driver nearby. Fast forward to today & you’ve probably got a better chance of the stars aligning for GBRf than DB, albeit DB might still be marginally better off for drivers at Mossend. Thoughts?

Personally I hope this whole affair was just an aberration & won’t happen again. The 73/9s do seem to have settled down to a pretty good level of reliability overall

The fort william fuel used to run once a week and the alcans just the same as it is now under gbrf so under dbc there would of been just unlikely a chance of a db 66 being there as a gbrf loco also the longannet coal traffic hasn’t run for a couple of years now so there wouldn’t be a loco available to take of it wether ews/scotrail had the contract or not.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

My use of the term “flat” was more in connection with the wheels than the hotel experience but I didn’t make that clear.

If anything the marketing was too good and the reality doesn’t match the promise at the moment, and would it have been quite tricky even without all the hitches. Leaving aside the effects of the motion, it is more of a posh residential caravan experience than a luxury hotel due to the space constraints.

 

[trebor79]

Indeed, it's very reminiscent of an EasyHotel. Some of their rooms are comically small, some don't even have windows.
But they are between £20 and £60 a night, the toilet works and the shower is hot.

Someone somewhere messed up badly trying to make it into a luxury hotel experience. The fact that the Royal Scotsman or whatever it's called gave up on that model and now put the rich tourists up in a hotel each might during their tour says that even with almost unlimited resources, it just isn't possible to match the expectations conjoured up by such marketing.

I enjoyed my trip in early May, despite the relatively minor teething problems I encountered. But I'm a train buff and also cynical enough not to expect the reality to match the marketing (plus it was mean to be Mk3 when I booked, the Mk5 was a surprise).

Problem is they are now left with new trains with less capacity than the old, so need to charge higher fares just to stand still on revenue. And I don't think there's anything fundamentally better about the new stock to justify that price increase.
The double bed thing is clearly just a gimmick to try and use the extra space needed by an accessible berth. The en suites would be nice, but cold showers seem to be a recurring complaint. Other than that it's a bunk in a small room, same as the old stock but a bit more modern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The marketing was good. It's the rolling stock that can't live up to it that is the problem.

The marketing is the nub of the problem - you could quite happily get away with the present debacle if you were marketing it as a cheap couchette service for Interrailers and budget tourists and charging maybe £100 a room at most. And I genuinely don't think, for the seats, there's a massive issue with putting a decent road coach on instead, as that's pretty equivalent, really, and the prices are not far off those charged by the coach operators.

But for the beds...what they're doing is charging for the JW Marriott and barely giving you a Travelodge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, it's very reminiscent of an EasyHotel. Some of their rooms are comically small, some don't even have windows.
But they are between £20 and £60 a night, the toilet works and the shower is hot.

Bingo.

I think people accept that on a train they are hardly going to get the grand suite in terms of the amount of space. Just like you won't if you're in First Class on a transatlantic flight. (I'm conscious the prices aren't *quite* in that league, but equally nor is the cost model).

However, when marketed as a premium service, what you do expect is:
- Everything to work
- Everything to be of a high standard and be clean
- The booked room to exist and in this case to go to the advertised destination at the advertised time (both in terms of boarding and alighting, given that the product on sale is essentially a night's sleep as well as being moved from A to B, unlike every other train service where the product on sale is fundamentally being where you want to be rather than where you don't).

You also expect that if for any reason any of the above is not delivered, you as a customer and your wishes and preferences are at the centre of what is done as an alternative. So you don't get told to go to a hotel and come back in 3 hours or get lost and take a refund or get on a bus. You get asked what you would like. That might be to go back home again plus a refund. It might be a decent 8 hours' kip in a decent quality hotel then a day train or flight (again at your option). It might even be the bus with a partial or full refund. But at premium hotels, the guest is at the centre of everything on an individual basis. With CS, this is very evidently not how things are being done.

As I said, if they adopted the rather lower key marketing approach of the Riviera, of Thello, or even of OeBB Nightjet or similar, they'd be about right with their response to events. But they didn't. They made their bed in the JW Marriott, now they need to lie in it, not quietly naff off to the nearest Travelodge.

And if that means Serco lose a few million quid, well bully for them. They chose to take on the franchise, they chose their marketing approach, and they chose to contract CAF to deliver the stock and negotiated whatever penalty clauses may exist for the failures that have occurred. None of that is anyone else's problem but theirs.

 

[Mainliner]

However, when marketed as a premium service, what you do expect is:
- Everything to work
- Everything to be of a high standard and be clean
- The booked room to exist...

As far as the accommodation is concerned, this is the fundamental issue.

Someone obviously has to (or should) check each berth before the train leaves the depot, to make sure beds are made, toiletries and night packs are in place, etc.

Why can’t that person just press the sink tap to make sure the water supply works - and if it doesn’t, report it so that it can be replenished, or if it can’t be fixed, mark the berth as out of service and change the boarding list so that the passenger can be allocated a working berth on boarding, instead of having to wait up to an hour or two for a steward to knock on the door when they’re already in bed, as has been reported. This would of course also considerably assist the hard-pressed on-board staff.

Of course, if water supplies ARE being checked at the depot, and failing after arriving at the departure station, that’s a problem on an entirely different level.

But a report today of a customer finding a dirty en-suite toilet on boarding does make me wonder whether all the most basic checks are being made.

 

[Highland37]

In an era where low costs models are normal and OuiGo etc are expanding, I do wonder how sensible it is to abandon a large section of the population and go posh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In an era where low costs models are normal and OuiGo etc are expanding, I do wonder how sensible it is to abandon a large section of the population and go posh.

To be fair, there is a low-cost offering - the seats - and at the very low prices those are offered I think the alternatives on offer (a refund with the option of a free bus journey) are totally acceptable.

The issue is those paying a substantial sum of money for a good night's sleep as well as transport from A to B.

 

[Highland37]

I mean they could have fitted in a lot more beds in at least one coach, similar to the way the Megabus Sleeper was. I am sure there would be a market for it but it won't happen. There might not be much of a market soon. Check out the Tripadvisor reports.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a report today of a customer finding a dirty en-suite toilet on boarding does make me wonder whether all the most basic checks are being made.

Which is why I think they are floundering.

Crikey, Premier Inn offer a full refund (of one night, I guess they'd also allow early checkout if it was not resolvable) if anything at all prevents you getting a good night's kip - even something minor like noisy aircon, as I claimed it for once. That would concentrate minds on not putting stock out with mucky toilets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mean they could have fitted in a lot more beds in at least one coach, similar to the way the Megabus Sleeper was. I am sure there would be a market for it but it won't happen. There might not be much of a market soon. Check out the Tripadvisor reports.

I think it's going to need a relaunch under a different name - the name is now completely tarnished.

 

[w1bbl3]

Bingo.
I think people accept that on a train they are hardly going to get the grand suite in terms of the amount of space. Just like you won't if you're in First Class on a transatlantic flight. (I'm conscious the prices aren't *quite* in that league, but equally nor is the cost model).

You also expect that if for any reason any of the above is not delivered, you as a customer and your wishes and preferences are at the centre of what is done as an alternative. So you don't get told to go to a hotel and come back in 3 hours or get lost and take a refund or get on a bus. You get asked what you would like. That might be to go back home again plus a refund. It might be a decent 8 hours' kip in a decent quality hotel then a day train or flight (again at your option). It might even be the bus with a partial or full refund. But at premium hotels, the guest is at the centre of everything on an individual basis. With CS, this is very evidently not how things are being done.

One of things the premium airlines have long since cottoned on to is how to treat "premium" e.g. first and business class customers in the event of disruption. Hotels, transfers, alternate carriers all offered as matter of course, doing just the statutory minimum not. But it's train I hear the cries go out and conditions of carriage state what has to be provided provided, yes that's true but not what is being marketed service wise.

The experience on offer currently is not at the level that will build customer loyalty which is what the service needs to see premium passengers particularly on the lowlander not desert CS for the alternative of a plane and hotel room, customer loyalty is hard won but easily lost and worth far more in the long term than trying to contain costs during periods of disruption.

As a previous CS customer would I use the service currently for business travel, honestly no. My last London > Edinburgh trip for a 9am meeting only a couple of weeks ago was flight (from London city, BA) and hotel near Edinburgh airport (Novotel), why? I didn't have the confidence that CS would get me there well rested. The whole thing cost about £20 less than a CS club room.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The Caledonian Sleeper name is getting slated big time at the moment. Will they fully recover from that?

Of course they will. People have short memories.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Oh dear, was anything actually wrong (apart from issues on PRM compliance) with the MkIIIs that meant new trains HAD to be provided? The service has normally worked so well, so let's hope Serco can recover it again quickly without too much further damage to its (once) regular market.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Oh dear, was anything actually wrong (apart from issues on PRM compliance) with the MkIIIs that meant new trains HAD to be provided? The service has normally worked so well, so let's hope Serco can recover it again quickly without too much further damage to its (once) regular market.

From my experience traveling in them, they were extremely tired and reaching the end of their life. I imagine all the usual corrosion issues, plus a deteorating ride quality (which I can attest to).