Can you be fined for not having a ticket before boarding a train

[ianBR]

If most stations aren't compulsory ticket areas are you breaking any byelaws by either jumping over barriers or following someone through if you haven't actually boarded any train

Eg. My friend is getting on the same train as me from Gatwick. I have bought a ticket for his journey from Gatwick to London and I'm already on the train, but we have both forgotten about the barriers at Gatwick.

If he has a valid ticket by the time he travels on an actual train can railway staff stop him getting through the barrier anyway he wants?


Or.. someone decides to go meet their friend on the platform and doesn't want to queue up at a ticket office for a platform ticket that may not even be sold. Is any byelaw broken from standing on a platform if not intending to travel (and if so would railways staff have to prove an intention to travel)

 

[causton]

If most stations aren't compulsory ticket areas are you breaking any byelaws by either jumping over barriers or following someone through if you haven't actually boarded any train

Not really, no.

If you are on a train or have just left one and are on your way out of the station, then you can be charged.
However there is reference in the bylaws to not using ticket gates in the correct manner, or following directions from station staff if they tell you that you cannot go through the barriers.

In your first example your friend may have trouble getting onto the platform as staff may not believe that 'my friend has my ticket'.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If most stations aren't compulsory ticket areas are you breaking any byelaws by either jumping over barriers or following someone through if you haven't actually boarded any train

Eg. My friend is getting on the same train as me from Gatwick. I have bought a ticket for his journey from Gatwick to London and I'm already on the train, but we have both forgotten about the barriers at Gatwick.

If he has a valid ticket by the time he travels on an actual train can railway staff stop him getting through the barrier anyway he wants?


Or.. someone decides to go meet their friend on the platform and doesn't want to queue up at a ticket office for a platform ticket that may not even be sold. Is any byelaw broken from standing on a platform if not intending to travel (and if so would railways staff have to prove an intention to travel)

No offence is committed in merely being present on a station if you aren't actually travelling, regardless of whether you have a ticket or not. If it were a Compulsory Ticket Area under a Regulations-compliant Penalty Fares scheme, then you could be civilly liable to a Penalty Fare if you couldn't show a ticket. However, it is not an offence to fail to pay a Penalty Fare - it is only something you can be sued for.

All that being being said, you would be committing a Byelaw 9(4) offence if you entered the station otherwise than through the intended entrance (e.g. if ticket barriers are in operation, jumping over them or pushing them open, or jumping over a fence). And if you remained on the railway when instructed to leave you could be considered to be loitering on the railway, which is an offence under Byelaw 13(2), or you could be considered to be trespassing on the railway, which is, again, an offence under Byelaw 13(1).

In practice, Byelaw prosecutions for anything other than Byelaw 18 (boarding a train without a ticket, or being unable to present one upon demand) are exceedingly rare. The penalty for breaching the other Byelaws is likely to simply be removal by reasonable force (as is authorised by Byelaw 24(2)), or arrest by the police if you prat around for long enough or there happens to be a BTP officer around.

I have reservations regarding the enforceability, upon challenge, of some of the Byelaws - and in particular Byelaw 18 - but I don't think any challenge can really be made against the Byelaws I've mentioned above. The railway is private property - and private property which is subject to stringent Byelaws at that - so you have to abide by the rules when you're there.

 

[tiptoptaff]

As a member of rail staff, in this climate of heightened security, I would be extremely suspicious of someone doubling through or jumping the barriers, especially if they have no intention of travelling. Raises some security red-flags

 

[Clip]

As a member of rail staff, in this climate of heightened security, I would be extremely suspicious of someone doubling through or jumping the barriers, especially if they have no intention of travelling. Raises some security red-flags

It shouldnt do really as most who would do such a thing are just wanting to bunk the train

 

[PeterC]

Not really, no.

.....................

In your first example your friend may have trouble getting onto the platform as staff may not believe that 'my friend has my ticket'.

I don't know how often it happens on the railway but working in the entertainment business it seems a regular things for people to arrange to meet the person with the tickets inside the venue and then wonder why they can't get in.

 

[Haywain]

It shouldnt do really as most who would do such a thing are just wanting to bunk the train

Well, that's alright then.

 

[LowLevel]

There was a particularly entertaining incident at one of our stations the other month when a hard-core fare evader decided to exit via the fence rather than use a gateline (I know it's the opposite way round to this example but it's still worth telling).

He was found by a train dispatcher yelling blue murder having caught his leg in the fence in question as he went over, snapped his ankle in two and was found trapped between the fence and a bike shelter.

BTP paid him a visit in a hospital after he was removed by ambulance to add to his woes

 

[Clip]

Well, that's alright then.

Oh sorry did i say it was alright? No and its never alright to ever do that but all who do this are there to bunk the train and not to blow up people or anything else - the stats pretty much bear this out unless of course you can show me the instances of terror where they have purposely gone through the barriers with out paying(which in a lot of cases they would've been stopped before they got down to the trains where there are more people to do more damage to)

 

[ainsworth74]

If it were a Compulsory Ticket Area under a Regulations-compliant Penalty Fares scheme, then you could be civilly liable to a Penalty Fare if you couldn't show a ticket. However, it is not an offence to fail to pay a Penalty Fare - it is only something you can be sued for.

Surely Byelaw 17(1) would apply in a Compulsory Ticket Area?

 

[Bantamzen]

As a member of rail staff, in this climate of heightened security, I would be extremely suspicious of someone doubling through or jumping the barriers, especially if they have no intention of travelling. Raises some security red-flags

It shouldnt do really as most who would do such a thing are just wanting to bunk the train

I'm afraid depending on where the barrier jump took place, and of course the current state of emergency doing so could well attract the attention of the BTP very quickly, and if they are acting on unpublicised intelligence there may well even be armed officers present at larger stations. So any putting bylaws aside for a moment, anyone even legitimately (if it could ever be termed as such) trying to bypass barriers or ticket checks might want to think twice!

 

[221129]

I'm afraid depending on where the barrier jump took place, and of course the current state of emergency doing so could well attract the attention of the BTP very quickly, and if they are acting on unpublicised intelligence there may well even be armed officers present at larger stations. So any putting bylaws aside for a moment, anyone even legitimately (if it could ever be termed as such) trying to bypass barriers or ticket checks might want to think twice!

You seem to overestimate the effectiveness of the BTP.

 

[Bantamzen]

You seem to overestimate the effectiveness of the BTP.

I've seen them in action at Leeds, and all I'll say is I wouldn't want to mess with them if they acted!!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Surely Byelaw 17(1) would apply in a Compulsory Ticket Area?

Well yes - technically you would be committing an offence. However, as per Byelaw 24(1), no punishment exists for breaching Byelaw 17 - it is merely that you can be removed from the railway by reasonable force. So it follows that it is not an offence that can be prosecuted.

 

[ainsworth74]

Well yes - technically you would be committing an offence. However, as per Byelaw 24(1), no punishment exists for breaching Byelaw 17 - it is merely that you can be removed from the railway by reasonable force. So it follows that it is not an offence that can be prosecuted.

Oh yes! I had missed that little part of 24(1)! It specifically excludes 17 from being a fineable offence. How odd.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Oh yes! I had missed that little part of 24(1)! It specifically excludes 17 from being a fineable offence. How odd.

It's not that odd when you put it in the historical context. Byelaw 18 (or its older equivalent) used to be in the same category - i.e. you could be removed from the railway and it was an offence but you could not be punished for it. But when the new Railway Byelaws 2005 were introduced the ", and 18" was quietly removed from the old equivalent of Byelaw 24(1), and thus Byelaw 18 became a moneyspinner for the TOCs!

Personally, I have no doubt that Byelaw 18 is, in any case, entirely unlawful in existing (or at the very least in not being excluded from punishment by Byelaw 24(1)). The reason why, from the early days of BR up until 2005, boarding a train without a ticket was not an offence per se was that no secondary legislation could make this an offence. RoRA S5(3) already makes doing so with intent to avoid payment an offence.

Secondary legislation cannot modify primary legislation, and yet Byelaw 18 attempts to do just this, by removing the requirement for intent to be proved in the RoRA offence.

I would love to see the outcome if someone raised this as a defence to a Byelaw 18 prosecution. The result might even be that all TOCs have to repay all costs and fares awarded in historical Byelaw 18 prosecutions, and that all out of Court settlements have to be repaid. Just imagine the change in TOCs' anti-passenger attitudes!

 

[ainsworth74]

Fascinating, thank you

 

[175mph]

There was a particularly entertaining incident at one of our stations the other month when a hard-core fare evader decided to exit via the fence rather than use a gateline (I know it's the opposite way round to this example but it's still worth telling).

He was found by a train dispatcher yelling blue murder having caught his leg in the fence in question as he went over, snapped his ankle in two and was found trapped between the fence and a bike shelter.

BTP paid him a visit in a hospital after he was removed by ambulance to add to his woes

Was he arrested and later made an appearance in court, or did they just grill him severely for it?

 

[robbeech]

I don't know how often it happens on the railway but working in the entertainment business it seems a regular things for people to arrange to meet the person with the tickets inside the venue and then wonder why they can't get in.

The difference here is that at many events you are not likely to be required to show your ticket again where as you are likely to have the ticket checked again on some trains and possibly at another ticket barrier on the way out.

 

[Stigy]

most stations aren't compulsory ticket areas are you breaking any byelaws by either jumping over barriers or following someone through if you haven't actually boarded any train

Eg. My friend is getting on the same train as me from Gatwick. I have bought a ticket for his journey from Gatwick to London and I'm already on the train, but we have both forgotten about the barriers at Gatwick.

There’s an offence of intending to travel without a valid ticket, with the intention to avoid paying, under a.5(3)a of the Regulation of railways Act. Therefore technically, if it’s believed a passenger intended to travel and avoid their fare, they could be found guilty of this offence. Admittedly there would need to be quite strong evidence, and just being present on a platform won’t do. If for example somebody jumped the barriers to get a train, then stepped foot on the train, they’d have some questions to answer at the very least. This way too, they’d be guilty of a byelaw 18 offence if fare evasion couldn’t be proved as they actually boarded a train for the purpose of travelling, without a valid ticket. And then there’s the barrier offence under byelaw 9(2) of course.

 

[londonbridge]

On a related note all London Tramlink platforms are compulsory ticket areas, are they not? In many cases the platform is part of the normal pavement. So for example if you were walking along Croydon George Street and just happened to walk along the platform rather than behind it, in theory you could be stopped and prosecuted for not having a ticket when all you were doing was walking along the street with no intention of boarding a tram or travelling? Certainly, depending on the volume of pedestrians, I have walked along the platform at George Street on more than one occasion.

 

[najaB]

On a related note all London Tramlink platforms are compulsory ticket areas, are they not?

Are they? I thought that, in order to be enforceable, CTAs had to be clearly signed and deliniated so that there was little chance that a reasonable person could enter one without knowing.

 

[yorkie]

On a related note all London Tramlink platforms are compulsory ticket areas, are they not? In many cases the platform is part of the normal pavement. So for example if you were walking along Croydon George Street and just happened to walk along the platform rather than behind it, in theory you could be stopped and prosecuted for not having a ticket when all you were doing was walking along the street with no intention of boarding a tram or travelling? Certainly, depending on the volume of pedestrians, I have walked along the platform at George Street on more than one occasion.

In this case there is a clause stating that you are not guilty if you did not alight from a tram. But it's still a ridiculous concept really.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tramlink-byelaws.pdf

No person at a tramstop or a station compulsory ticket area shall be in breach of this Byelaw 19 unless he came there by alighting from a tram.

 

[superalbs]

In this case there is a clause stating that you are not guilty if you did not alight from a tram. But it's still a ridiculous concept really.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tramlink-byelaws.pdf

But surely you'd have a valid ticket if you had just alighted from a tram? So it's an utterly pointless rule? I suppose unless you have an invalid ticket and have just got off a tram?

 

[island]

But surely you'd have a valid ticket if you had just alighted from a tram? So it's an utterly pointless rule? I suppose unless you have an invalid ticket and have just got off a tram?

The purpose of the byelaw is to allow for ticket inspections on the platform as passengers alight from a tram, to save them having to prove you boarded the tram somewhere.

 

[boxy321]

I'd love to see this enforced outside New St (Stephenson St). The tram stops block over half the pavement.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'd love to see this enforced outside New St (Stephenson St). The tram stops block over half the pavement.

I don't know whether such Byelaws apply to the Midland Metro (the Byelaws cited apply only to the London tram network).

 

[tsr]

I'd love to see this enforced outside New St (Stephenson St). The tram stops block over half the pavement.

At Reeves Corner in Croydon, it takes up the whole pavement! There’s also one adjacent building for which the main pedestrian access is technically by walking through the tram stop.

I believe this is one of the reasons for the clause about having to hold a ticket only if alighting from a tram.

For what it’s worth, if you are checked in such circumstances whilst using Oyster/contactless, the Revenue Inspection Devices can be set to a mode which specifically caters for checks on a station/stop which is outside/without a gateline area.

 

[Clip]

Same at Lebanon Road too and Elmers End would be a tricky one to cover without the get out clause

 

[jimbo99]

For what it’s worth, if you are checked in such circumstances whilst using Oyster/contactless, the Revenue Inspection Devices can be set to a mode which specifically caters for checks on a station/stop which is outside/without a gateline area.

In what way is this mode different from the normal mode of checking? I thought they just scanned your card: Oyster - check you have tapped in or have a pass etc., contactless - you are not a black list.

Oh and I've often wondered about my annual bus pass. How do they know it's "mine" and I'm not simply borrowing someone else's? Years ago you had to have a photocard. I do have a photocard which supports my goldcard season, which is loaded onto the Oyster. Can they see that the gold card and ask to see the photo? I always carry the photo/gold season just in case, but I'd rather not have to carry it as I rarely use trains.