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Cardiff Central Possibilities

Smwrff

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Is not it functional currently?

Where are the saftey issues? Wherever they are, I would proabably accept that they need to be addressed - but there may be ways to do this while retaining the museum element of it. If not, as I've said above, more effort needs to be put into preserving as much as possible either on-site or elsewhere - rather than just the token guesture of retaining part of the facade.
The station is not functional in that it does not meet modern safety standards. It is currently handling 13 million pax pa and forecast to reach 20 million in the near future (it might already have reached that if not for Covid), and reaching 30 million in the medium term. The current layout is probably ok for 10 million pax at most, so a significant upgrade is required now and this must be future proofed.

The main constraint is the underplatform tunnels and their stairways to the platforms which are already danerously overcrowded at peak times. There are two complete solutions - a new underground concourse or a new over platform concourse - and a partial solution which is a new underground tunnel to platforms 1 & 2 only. I understand that the new underground concourse (linking platforms 0-8) has been ruled out (whether on technical or financial grounds I dont know).

Two other factors need to be considered -

1. The need to extend Platform 0 (which will have a major impact on existing station building)
2. The increased use of South entrance - which will become the main (only?) access for vehicles, taxis, coaches and future tram - with North entrance being for pedestrian access only including bus station. (This will help reduce impact to the existing station building).

Other subjective considerations include aspirations to improve passenger comfort with better weather proofing, and improving the first impression of arrivals at Wales's main gateway.

It is not possible to meet all of these requirements while retaining all of the 'museum features' - something has to give.

Personally I have no love for the existing platform buildings or the canopy skirt on the main station building. But i would prefer to retain the clocktower and the ticket hall ceiling in some form or other. The existing tunnels could be retained for north-south pedestrian access only with no platform access.

The architects will have to earn their fees on this project.
 
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Ted2

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I wonder if a full rebuild of Cardiff Central (Reading-style) would ever be on the cards. The devolved government seems to be pro-rail. For a capital city, the offering of Cardiff Central is fairly poor. I would expect more retail, better platforms and a much more capacious subway and concourse.

Your idea for splitting the platforms is good, in my opinion, and should be utilised where possible at other stations (see my thread on Exeter Central). I wonder if we shall ever see travelators to get people to the correct part of their platform...
The station definitely needs more eastbound platforms to accommodate increased passenger numbers.
In
I wonder if a full rebuild of Cardiff Central (Reading-style) would ever be on the cards. The devolved government seems to be pro-rail. For a capital city, the offering of Cardiff Central is fairly poor. I would expect more retail, better platforms and a much more capacious subway and concourse.

Your idea for splitting the platforms is good, in my opinion, and should be utilised where possible at other stations (see my thread on Exeter Central). I wonder if we shall ever see travelators to get people to the correct part of their platform...
Agree. A full rebuild is needed with more eastbound platforms that can accommodate 10 plus carriages. Facilities are woeful, there’s no restaurants, bars, retail and it doesn’t showcase Cardiff or Wales. Some sections are listed so these will need to be carefully moved to St Fagans for rebuild and this will increase cost of the project. A lot of new offices and apartment blocks have been built close to the station and these may restrict expansion. Passenger numbers continue to rise in keeping with the wider environmental pressures and commuters and visitors choosing to travel by train but the station doesn’t have the walkways, turnstiles to accommodate. There was a plan to erect a carbuncle/hanger to the front of the station but this is tinkering and a full demolish and rebuild is required. Network Rail and TFW funding for such a project will be interesting.
 

Rhydgaled

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The station is not functional in that it does not meet modern safety standards. It is currently handling 13 million pax pa and forecast to reach 20 million in the near future (it might already have reached that if not for Covid), and reaching 30 million in the medium term. The current layout is probably ok for 10 million pax at most, so a significant upgrade is required now and this must be future proofed.
Ok, understood. However, I would suggest that 'over-capacity' is a better term to describe such a suituation rather than 'non-functional' - have any of the ecocidal advocates of the proposed second M4 around Newport ever used the latter to describe the current M4 through south-east Wales?

The station definitely needs more eastbound platforms to accommodate increased passenger numbers.
Aren't the current platforms all now bi-directional? Indeed, I think platforms 4, 6, 7 and 8 are now signalled as part of the Cardiff Metro / ValleyLines in which case only 1 of the traditionally 'westbound' platforms (ie. platform 3) is still controlled by Cardiff Mainline.

The main constraint is the underplatform tunnels and their stairways to the platforms which are already danerously overcrowded at peak times. There are two complete solutions - a new underground concourse or a new over platform concourse - and a partial solution which is a new underground tunnel to platforms 1 & 2 only. I understand that the new underground concourse (linking platforms 0-8) has been ruled out (whether on technical or financial grounds I dont know).
Would new footbridges (not concourses, just normal footbridges) suplementing the existing tunnels not also be at least a partial solution?

2. The increased use of South entrance - which will become the main (only?) access for vehicles, taxis, coaches and future tram - with North entrance being for pedestrian access only including bus station. (This will help reduce impact to the existing station building).

Other subjective considerations include aspirations to improve passenger comfort with better weather proofing, and improving the first impression of arrivals at Wales's main gateway.
A full rebuild is needed with more eastbound platforms that can accommodate 10 plus carriages. Facilities are woeful, there’s no restaurants, bars, retail and it doesn’t showcase Cardiff or Wales.
The answer to this would appear to be a large new concourse on the south side with greatly enhanced catering and toilet facilities, replacing those on the platforms. However the potential future need for additional platforms south of platform 8 should be considered and allowed for. Additional indoor passenger space (for post-event queues) on the north side could be provided by moving the M&S to a new structure built on the car park above it and installing glass panels from the canopy 'skirt' around the front to the ground, effectively making the area under that canopy part of the northern concourse.

1. The need to extend Platform 0 (which will have a major impact on existing station building)
Is this really a 'need'? Looking at the bigger picture of traffic across the whole of the South Wales Main Line, rather than just at Cardiff Central in isolation, I remain unconvinced that platform 0 becoming the main platform for InterCity services towards Paddington is the best way forward. Indeed, the most logical routing for services from Swanline and Maesteg to Ebbw Vale (and possible future Metro extensions to Abertillery and Hereford) seems to be through platform 0. If I recall correctly, the consultation on the proposed new 'Burns review' stations between Cardiff Central and Severn Tunnel Junction stated that they would have 170m platforms - I'm pretty sure platform 0 at Cardiff Central could be extended to that length without impacting on the existing station building. A 260m platform 0 for 10-car class 800s/802s on the other hand would indeed probably require removal of a signficant part of the existing building, although even then it might be possible to extend it further westwards to avoid impacting the main building if the work was done in conjunction with a major remodelling of the western approaches (likely including part of Canton depot) which is likely be needed at some point anyway if the massive increase in service frequency that Network Rail envisaged before COVID has only been put back a few years.

It is not possible to meet all of these requirements while retaining all of the 'museum features' - something has to give.
There would need to be modern extensions alongside some of the heritiage aspects, which would impact the setting of them, but I still don't see that any demolition is necessary; except perhaps if platform 0 needs to be longer than the new 'Burns review' stations - in which case I can only say that either the listing has failed or that a huge amount of money will need to be found to move the entire thing (except platforms 0 and 8) to a museum like St. Fagans. In theory, all the 'museum features' could be retained in that way, but it will not be cheap and I'm not sure where the best place to move them to would be.

Some sections are listed so these will need to be carefully moved to St Fagans for rebuild and this will increase cost of the project.
Pretty much all of it is listed. Only the relatively modern parts (platforms 0 and 8) are not. Unfortunately there does not appear to be a legal requirement to actually protect listed buildings, so I fear nobody will pay for the massive cost of moving it to St. Fagans and the most-complete big-4 major city station will be lost.
 

Signal_Box

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Ideally Cardiff Central would be moved west roughly to where the west junction and canton depots are now.

Proper Reading style dive over/under to allow better separation of traffic and interchange. Even closing Ninian Park and combine it with the Cardiff Grand Central station now on the site of Canton depots.

But it’ll never happen so we have to work smarter with pathing and platform allocations, more stabling which is quicker to clear trains to at the west would help. Extending platform zero by only 1 car to allow 5 car IETs to stop would help separate out certain flows combined with Up side termination and addtional west end stabling.
 

anthony263

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Ideally Cardiff Central would be moved west roughly to where the west junction and canton depots are now.

Proper Reading style dive over/under to allow better separation of traffic and interchange. Even closing Ninian Park and combine it with the Cardiff Grand Central station now on the site of Canton depots.

But it’ll never happen so we have to work smarter with pathing and platform allocations, more stabling which is quicker to clear trains to at the west would help. Extending platform zero by only 1 car to allow 5 car IETs to stop would help separate out certain flows combined with Up side termination and addtional west end stabling.
Tfw wanted a dive under for the cityline to ease congestion at Cardiff West Junction.

A bridge deck like Reading is definitely needed to replace the subways. Platform 0 need extending plus maybe Platform 5 reinstated
 

Signal_Box

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Tfw wanted a dive under for the cityline to ease congestion at Cardiff West Junction.

A bridge deck like Reading is definitely needed to replace the subways. Platform 0 need extending plus maybe Platform 5 reinstated

Without a serious amount of remodelling you’ll not get any kind of bridge on the west.

Remove Canton from the situation and you’ve a huge amount of land to decongest the station. Another missed opportunity when Taff Well was built, and three new train fleets ordered.

I can’t think of anywhere local to Cardiff that a new maintenance facility could be built without undue increases in ecs movements. Pullmans site could be easily relocated as it’s not location defined as in it needs to be there, but unfortunately due to the nature of the train service TfW Canton does. Even without bay work canton is totally unfit for propose even by today’s standards.
 

anthony263

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Without a serious amount of remodelling you’ll not get any kind of bridge on the west.

Remove Canton from the situation and you’ve a huge amount of land to decongest the station. Another missed opportunity when Taff Well was built, and three new train fleets ordered.

I can’t think of anywhere local to Cardiff that a new maintenance facility could be built without undue increases in ecs movements. Pullmans site could be easily relocated as it’s not location defined as in it needs to be there, but unfortunately due to the nature of the train service TfW Canton does. Even without bay work canton is totally unfit for propose even by today’s standards.
Pity tfw couldn't get more work done at Barry and Landore depots.
New maintenance depot build elsewhere if required
 

Caaardiff

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Moving Cardiff Central West would defeat the object of the main station being right in the city centre, right next to the new bus station.
There should be a new platform created the East end of the main concourse, in a similar setup to how Platform 0 is. Looking at googlemaps it doesn't look like it would be blocked by the Sleeperz Hotel. The taxi rank would need to be remodelled.
If enough space is there then maybe even another track and a bay platform. Otherwise just another Platform 0 on the other side.

It would mean arrivals from the east could go straight back east without needing to shunt and clog up the west points.
Services arriving from the West could either continue through when the new platform isn't occupied or head back West.


Screenshot 2024-03-27 194354.jpg
 

Signal_Box

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Pity tfw couldn't get more work done at Barry and Landore depots.
New maintenance depot build elsewhere if required

Barry “depot” is hugely underused, the majority of the site is used to store 756 units. I don’t think they use the actual depot building either.

A remodel to allow easier direct access with, upgrading of the former wagon shops building could form a very useful sub shed of Canton.

Moving Cardiff Central West would defeat the object of the main station being right in the city centre, right next to the new bus station.
There should be a new platform created the East end of the main concourse, in a similar setup to how Platform 0 is. Looking at googlemaps it doesn't look like it would be blocked by the Sleeperz Hotel. The taxi rank would need to be remodelled.
If enough space is there then maybe even another track and a bay platform. Otherwise just another Platform 0 on the other side.

It would mean arrivals from the east could go straight back east without needing to shunt and clog up the west points.
Services arriving from the West could either continue through when the new platform isn't occupied or head back West.


View attachment 155223

The east end throat is way to constrained to add any platforms bay other full.

Best hope is for a two car extension to east end of Zero with a new access into the actual original station building to allow the platform to butt up fully.
 

30907

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Best hope is for a two car extension to east end of Zero with a new access into the actual original station building to allow the platform to butt up fully.
I also wondered about a short platform "0 East" on the same track as 0, but it would be too short and too difficult to access from the "crowd control" area.
Would it be better to split P1 with a crossover halfway along, allowing access to its West end while the East end is occupied? Cardiff has enough half-length trains for this to work!
 

Signal_Box

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I also wondered about a short platform "0 East" on the same track as 0, but it would be too short and too difficult to access from the "crowd control" area.
Would it be better to split P1 with a crossover halfway along, allowing access to its West end while the East end is occupied? Cardiff has enough half-length trains for this to work!

Mid platform crossovers would close to useless as you’d need to allow the overlaps of four protecting signals to time out before you used another route into or out of the platform.

A cheap option is better and more efficient timetabling, down trains booked to use up side platforms when there is a down side platform free for example.

*Downside 3/4
*Upside 0/1/2
 

Parallel

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Cardiff Central is definitely in need of something doing to it. The services west of also need a rethink. I was in the area recently and a late running Maesteg - Gloucester service managed to delay 4 trains behind it in the Cardiff area.

It would be good if Carmarthen platforms are extended to take 10 coaches, then GWR won’t have to leave a set at Swansea, which might increase capacity there.

Of the regional services, I’m not sure what you’d extend on from Cardiff to be honest. The Holyhead and Penzance services are already long distance for regional services, and the Portsmouths are notorious for delays so I’m not sure you’d want to extend those out more. Possibly XC’s Nottingham - Cardiff could be extended to Swansea? They’re cancelled so often they’d probably rarely cause issues west of Cardiff!

I think in an ideal world, you’d have something like a Swansea Swanline - Cheltenham service, a Maesteg - Abergavenny service (Ebbw Vale wouldn’t be good here as short turnarounds both ends and single line sections) and maybe a Bridgend to Ebbw Vale service if track works could be permit mainline services to use Platform 1A at Bridgend.

The Manchester to West Wales services would all be joined up again too.
 

Signal_Box

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Cardiff Central is definitely in need of something doing to it. The services west of also need a rethink. I was in the area recently and a late running Maesteg - Gloucester service managed to delay 4 trains behind it in the Cardiff area.

It would be good if Carmarthen platforms are extended to take 10 coaches, then GWR won’t have to leave a set at Swansea, which might increase capacity there.

Of the regional services, I’m not sure what you’d extend on from Cardiff to be honest. The Holyhead and Penzance services are already long distance for regional services, and the Portsmouths are notorious for delays so I’m not sure you’d want to extend those out more. Possibly XC’s Nottingham - Cardiff could be extended to Swansea? They’re cancelled so often they’d probably rarely cause issues west of Cardiff!

I think in an ideal world, you’d have something like a Swansea Swanline - Cheltenham service, a Maesteg - Abergavenny service (Ebbw Vale wouldn’t be good here as short turnarounds both ends and single line sections) and maybe a Bridgend to Ebbw Vale service if track works could be permit mainline services to use Platform 1A at Bridgend.

The Manchester to West Wales services would all be joined up again too.
Regards to slow (local class 2) trains from the west, when their late they often delay the London services, unfortunately there is little benefit in looping them at Miskin to allow the faster train to pass as you lose any advantage with the train slowing for the entry into the loop. Also even routing then onto line B at Leckwith to allow a parallel run into Central and in theory allowing your following train to overtake and get a few minutes in the platform ahead is again defeated by a slow 25mph turnout from the main to line B.

Cardiff West end isn’t suited to allow what they want it to facilitate unfortunately, there is a enhancement project in the pipeline to hopefully it’ll address some of those issues, they might even ask those who work the panel for their input - but I doubt it.
 

Caaardiff

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Of the regional services, I’m not sure what you’d extend on from Cardiff to be honest. The Holyhead and Penzance services are already long distance for regional services, and the Portsmouths are notorious for delays so I’m not sure you’d want to extend those out more. Possibly XC’s Nottingham - Cardiff could be extended to Swansea? They’re cancelled so often they’d probably rarely cause issues west of Cardiff
No XC train crew sign west of Cardiff. At least GWRs train crew do.
It would be better to see a GWR regional service extend to Swansea and operate an hourly swanline service, with TFW doing the opposite hour as they do currently.
 

Topological

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Regards to slow (local class 2) trains from the west, when their late they often delay the London services, unfortunately there is little benefit in looping them at Miskin to allow the faster train to pass as you lose any advantage with the train slowing for the entry into the loop. Also even routing then onto line B at Leckwith to allow a parallel run into Central and in theory allowing your following train to overtake and get a few minutes in the platform ahead is again defeated by a slow 25mph turnout from the main to line B.

Cardiff West end isn’t suited to allow what they want it to facilitate unfortunately, there is a enhancement project in the pipeline to hopefully it’ll address some of those issues, they might even ask those who work the panel for their input - but I doubt it.
Is there any chance the turnout to Line B would be made faster to save slowing the local?

It would be great if the loops could be sped up so that the overtaking could happen before the GWR loses too much time, but I understand that requires a lot more than just a faster point.

It always seems to me that reducing the number of terminating trains would be the simplest win, including TfW going back to having their Marches trains run through Cardiff every hour.

For the crossovers in the middle of platforms, surely that is just about introducing suitable signalling to allow the required moves. Yes it has cost, but it is a financial consideration rather than any practical limitation?
 

Signal_Box

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Is there any chance the turnout to Line B would be made faster to save slowing the local?

It would be great if the loops could be sped up so that the overtaking could happen before the GWR loses too much time, but I understand that requires a lot more than just a faster point.

It always seems to me that reducing the number of terminating trains would be the simplest win, including TfW going back to having their Marches trains run through Cardiff every hour.

For the crossovers in the middle of platforms, surely that is just about introducing suitable signalling to allow the required moves. Yes it has cost, but it is a financial consideration rather than any practical limitation?

The project is “Cardiff West junction enhancement” so I don’t know if the scope extends out as far as Leckwith even though it could encompass that area to overall benefit of the core West Junction’.

With mid platform crossovers, you’d need nice long platforms like Gloucester. The most you’ll get on Cardiff now is 10 cars at a push 11. If you had mid platform crossovers you’ll take out at a minimum 4 cars in the middle once you add in the crossings and overlaps for the signals.
You might, if your lucky get enough space either side for a 4 car set. Two IETs on each platform as individual trains (X2 5 cars) is tight as it is.

As far as I can see a enhancement project lite could be as little as a handful of strategically placed points more so on the valleys side, and a few addtional slips on the mainline which would unlock parallel moves to unlock the city line capacity, and allow three up direction moves on lines ABC.

If you wanted a full fat enhancement, you would add Down direction crossovers at Leckwith and bi directionally signal from west end of the station right out to a enhanced Leckwith junction which would combine high speed (at least 40/50mph) crossings.

No XC train crew sign west of Cardiff. At least GWRs train crew do.
It would be better to see a GWR regional service extend to Swansea and operate an hourly swanline service, with TFW doing the opposite hour as they do currently.
Some tfw crew don’t sign East of Cardiff which makes interesting lol
 

Ted2

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Is there any chance the turnout to Line B would be made faster to save slowing the local?

It would be great if the loops could be sped up so that the overtaking could happen before the GWR loses too much time, but I understand that requires a lot more than just a faster point.

It always seems to me that reducing the number of terminating trains would be the simplest win, including TfW going back to having their Marches trains run through Cardiff every hour.

For the crossovers in the middle of platforms, surely that is just about introducing suitable signalling to allow the required moves. Yes it has cost, but it is a financial consideration rather than any practical limitation?
Appreciate through services is a tactical fix due to constraints with Cardiff Central not having enough platforms but GWR’s current through services practically empty at Cardiff.
 

aar0

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Appreciate through services is a tactical fix due to constraints with Cardiff Central not having enough platforms but GWR’s current through services practically empty at Cardiff.
GWR’s non-through services linking to their through ones would be very useful though. Amazing how often you see 9 coaches to Swansea leaving 6 minutes late as 5 from Bristol/Portsmouth/Penzance pull in, and then wait to connect to a late or cancelled 2 coach tfw service.
 

Topological

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GWR’s non-through services linking to their through ones would be very useful though. Amazing how often you see 9 coaches to Swansea leaving 6 minutes late as 5 from Bristol/Portsmouth/Penzance pull in, and then wait to connect to a late or cancelled 2 coach tfw service.
To be fair though, that is not a scheduled connection.

TfW will let a train pull out to go West when the arrival it used to be formed from is arriving at the platform adjacent. Then you are left with an hour until the inevitably 6 minutes late GWR (which as you rightly say remains just in front of the TfW)

I am a lay person, but from the outside it seems more through is better than less.
 

daodao

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TfW will let a train pull out to go West when the arrival it used to be formed from is arriving at the platform adjacent.
The splitting of previously through trains at Cardiff Central by TfW is very wasteful of the limited capacity at this station. All the Manchester-Cardiff trains should run through to Swansea and beyond (except after 2300) as they used to do, and should be formed of standard class only type 197 dmus, preferably 3 coaches. The unreliable elderly clapped-out loco-hauled stock should be sent for scrap.
 

aar0

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To be fair though, that is not a scheduled connection.

TfW will let a train pull out to go West when the arrival it used to be formed from is arriving at the platform adjacent. Then you are left with an hour until the inevitably 6 minutes late GWR (which as you rightly say remains just in front of the TfW)

I am a lay person, but from the outside it seems more through is better than less.
No, not a scheduled connection - but I think it would be good if it was!
 

Topological

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The splitting of previously through trains at Cardiff Central by TfW is very wasteful of the limited capacity at this station. All the Manchester-Cardiff trains should run through to Swansea and beyond (except after 2300) as they used to do, and should be formed of standard class only type 197 dmus, preferably 3 coaches. The unreliable elderly clapped-out loco-hauled stock should be sent for scrap.
If only...

But TfW will not like you saying that about their premier offering for the Cardiff to Manchester route. The TfW apologists do not like anyone questioning that the splitting has any effect on Cardiff capacity either.

I am very happy with the 197s, as long as there are enough carriages then all is good (this mornings 2 struggled a bit after we reached Nantwich, but last week 3 car on the same journey was fine)
 

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