Cardiff-Portsmouth - Rolling Stock Solutions?

[HamworthyGoods]

Slightly off topic but I was travelling on a 166 this morning which had a catering trolley on board. I couldn't help thinking how many sales of coffee are being lost solely due to the lack of seat back tables on the airline seats.

Only place someone could place the half drunk cup would be on the floor (or on the seat next to them if it was vacant).

The 450s on Pompey/Waterloo’s had the opposite problem - tables on the airlines but not in the bays. Same problem when the tea trolley came round!

 

[Stigy]

Agreed the interior isn’t suitable on a turbo. Maybe something like a 170 would be better with 1/3 2/3 and higher top speed? The XC ones I’ve been on are reasonably nice.

Higher top speed wouldn’t really decrease journey times as the linespeed is 90mph max for the majority.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Exactly - USED to is the very apt phrase, they wouldn’t work now.

Traffic at Bristol Temple Meads has grown so much the paths required to run round loco hauled trains would require other passenger trains to be removed from the timetable.

 

[Starmill]

Units like the 350/4 would have been very much adequate but of course we lack the capability to get such routes electrified in this country. Hopefully the Turbo rolling stock will look more like the new London Northwestern Railway interiors once complete, and that will be altogether better.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Exactly - USED to is the very apt phrase, they wouldn’t work now.

Traffic at Bristol Temple Meads has grown so much the paths required to run round loco hauled trains would require other passenger trains to be removed from the timetable.

Push-pull loco-hauled operation avoids the need for run-round at terminals. Class 365 sets might be be suitable candidates as they have 2+2 seating.

 

[JonathanH]

Class 365 sets might be be suitable candidates as they have 2+2 seating

There is an incredible similarity between a 365 and a Turbo. A Turbo with 2+2 seating wouldn't be too different from a 365.

365s should probably be talked about in the past tense now.

 

[Romsey]

I would go for 158 and 159 replacement being with cascaded 220s, 221s & 222s. Those in turn cascaded from their present routes by 80Xs once more electrification has happened. But I can only dream.

No, just no! Have you ever bothered to look how much higher voyager floors are than 158/165 units or many emu types?
With the low platforms at quite a few stations along the route, the fit and able would struggle to board the trains let alone anyone with poor mobility or encumbered with luggage, or young children.

If you want a suitable replacement for 158 / 165 on Portsmouth - Cardiff an ac-3rd rail-diesel / battery/ hydrogen / unicorn poo version of the 745's in East Anglia would be ideal. Wide doors, 2+2 seating, good performance and brand new also capable of running on electricity between Cardiff and Bristol and Southampton and Portsmouth/Brighton.

When withdrawn there is only two solutions for the voyagers - replacing rusted out pacer coaches in schools/ hospitals/club houses and your local neighbour hood scrap merchant.

Push-pull loco-hauled operation avoids the need for run-round at terminals. Class 365 sets might be be suitable candidates as they have 2+2 seating.

Nearly back to the future then.
In 1975/1976 the Southern Region wanted to take over the whole Portsmouth Bristol service and run it with class 33/1's and 4TC units. Unfortunately there wasn't enough of either type and from what I remember of the conversations I heard a few years later the BRB would not consider converting any more class 33's nor rebuilding mark 1's into TC units.
WE got second best. Hand me down mark 1 steam heat stock and completely knackered class 31's. Things did improve with eth stock and former Finsbury Park 31/4's. Reliability was only gained with the allocation of class 33's to the route.

 

[JohnRegular]

Something worth considering is that any new rolling stock for Cardiff-Pompey should really be suitable for the likes of Gloucester-Weymouth too. As it happens I expect the requirements for those routes are quite similar.

To anyone more in the know, what is the maximum length of units that could feasibly be introduced on these routes? I know 5 cars is the limit currently, but are there any platforms on the route that would be challenging to extend beyond that?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Something worth considering is that any new rolling stock for Cardiff-Pompey should really be suitable for the likes of Gloucester-Weymouth too. As it happens I expect the requirements for those routes are quite similar.

To anyone more in the know, what is the maximum length of units that could feasibly be introduced on these routes? I know 5 cars is the limit currently, but are there any platforms on the route that would be challenging to extend beyond that?

Would it be the end of the world if SDO was used if they decided to (God forbid) run 6 or 7 car units, there are times on the PMS to CDF route that where honestly a 2 car unit would suffice but the PMS to SOU part gets busy, the BTH to BRI and BRI to CDF also get busy where a 6 or 7 car train would be appreciated.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

7 coaches all the way from Pompey to Cardiff is a very expensive way of dealing with a localised heavy flow such as Bath to Bristol.

 

[JohnRegular]

7 coaches is probably excessive for the time being, though it isn't unthinkable that it might be neecessary in the coming years.

I asked initially because if there are significant constraints to extending platforms, fixed formation 5 carriage units are probably the way to go for new stock, whereas if it's feasible to go to 6 then 3 carriage units can be ordered and run doubled up most of the time.

Off the top of my head, it's only Filton, Bradford, Trowbridge westbound and possibly Warminster that can't take 6?

 

[morrisobrien]

7 coaches all the way from Pompey to Cardiff is a very expensive way of dealing with a localised heavy flow such as Bath to Bristol.

It also looks like that Mr Sunak is to announce investment on Bath to Bristol route in the forthcoming Budget....BUSWISE.

 

[Dai Corner]

It also looks like that Mr Sunak is to announce investment on Bath to Bristol route in the forthcoming Budget....BUSWISE.

Being discussed in this thread

Proposals for 'fully prioritised bus route between Bristol and Bath'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59017503 (as mentioned in the thread English city regions to get £6.9bn for public transport funding ): West of England (£540m): A fully prioritised bus route between Bristol and Bath Does anyone have any more information about this proposal?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[JonathanH]

Being discussed in this thread

Proposals for 'fully prioritised bus route between Bristol and Bath'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59017503 (as mentioned in the thread English city regions to get £6.9bn for public transport funding ): West of England (£540m): A fully prioritised bus route between Bristol and Bath Does anyone have any more information about this proposal?

www.railforums.co.uk

I imagine the OP's reason for noting the enhancement of the Bristol to Bath bus corridor was an idea that it would avoid additional rail capacity being needed between Bristol and Bath which in turn would allow a different seating layout or train length on Cardiff to Portsmouth. However, there would still appear to be a need to recognise that local rail demand in the Bristol area is not alleviated by making the bus route better.

 

[Wychwood93]

7 coaches all the way from Pompey to Cardiff is a very expensive way of dealing with a localised heavy flow such as Bath to Bristol.

Agreed - but - the heavy flows can go all the way from Bristol to Southampton. A few, but not that many, years ago my wife and myself attended a family funeral in Bristol - back on, I think, the 17.22 to Pompey - a 3-car 158 with a 153 at the rear (off at Westbury). We had to stand in a vestibule until at least Bradford or Trowbridge, promoted to a tip-up seat in the same location - I counted 18 in our vestibule - the one across the way appeared much the same and the inside of the coach was full and standing. It remained like that until Southampton, where we alighted for Christchurch. A 165/166 would have felt a touch less cramped, but not by too much.

 

[kentrailman]

Agreed - but - the heavy flows can go all the way from Bristol to Southampton. A few, but not that many, years ago my wife and myself attended a family funeral in Bristol - back on, I think, the 17.22 to Pompey - a 3-car 158 with a 153 at the rear (off at Westbury). We had to stand in a vestibule until at least Bradford or Trowbridge, promoted to a tip-up seat in the same location - I counted 18 in our vestibule - the one across the way appeared much the same and the inside of the coach was full and standing. It remained like that until Southampton, where we alighted for Christchurch. A 165/166 would have felt a touch less cramped, but not by too much.

Pre covid, this type of crowding was normal at most times of day .. All the way from Bristol to Southampton. Not sure if it still continues now .
I can't help thinking back to my 1980's transpotting days when I would take the train from bristol to Portsmouth and back and often have a whole compartment to myself on fairly empty trains ! A mixture of Corridor stock and open stock from what I recall .. hauled by 31's and later 33's .. Those were the days ..