Carlisle - Newcastle services

[Camden]

Carlisle to Newcastle

What class or classes of train work this route, by TOC?

 

[theblackwatch]

142 and 156 (Northern).
156 (ScotRail) on the joint services.

Can't think of any others!

 

[najaB]

Plus the occasional HST and loco-hauled 225 set (VTEC on diversion).

 

[47802]

For a main link across the Country this route is an utter disgrace especially when a Railbus turns up. It needs to be a high priority for better rolling stock in the new franchise.

 

[Stats]

For a main link across the Country this route is an utter disgrace especially when a Railbus turns up. It needs to be a high priority for better rolling stock in the new franchise.

As it will be part of the North East sub franchise, no chance of that unless it gets allocated to be one of the 'express' routes.

 

[47802]

As it will be part of the North East sub franchise, no chance of that unless it gets allocated to be one of the 'express' routes.

It should be an express route in my view, but assuming the Railbuses are going even some 150's as a replacement would be an improvement. and hopefully it would get some additional displaced 156's maybe even some 158's! so there ought to be at least some improvement, and also bearing in mind that retained units are supposed to get a major refurb.

 

[Carlisle]

It should be an express route in my view

Has it ever been an express route? As I don't think it's timetables have changed much since well before the end of BR times, so making it an express route would need a recast of west and east coast timetables too I guess

 

[Stats]

By express route I meant the higher spec Northern Regional services that are required to be offered by the new franchise.

 

[ainsworth74]

By express route I meant the higher spec Northern Regional services that are required to be offered by the new franchise.

Though speeding up journey times would be a significant positive for both everyday users of the line and when there are diversions!

 

[bramling]

For a main link across the Country this route is an utter disgrace especially when a Railbus turns up. It needs to be a high priority for better rolling stock in the new franchise.

Like many routes, my main priority would be longer trains - I'm quite happy with a Pacer if it means the train isn't overcrowded.

Newcaste-Carlisle can be horribly crowded at times, although whether provision of longer trains could be financially justified on the basis of transporting kids to/from Primark in the MetroCentre, which is the main cause of overcrowding here, is another matter.

 

[47802]

By express route I meant the higher spec Northern Regional services that are required to be offered by the new franchise.

Indeed with a fully standardised hourly service, possibly calling at only Metro Centre, Prudhoe, Hexham and Haltwhistle, and then say even hour trains call also at Haydon Bridge and Bardon Mill, and odd hour trains also call at Brampton and Wetheral with the additional peak hour call on this section if required, but all other stations between Hexham and Newcastle covered by stoppers, ideally an additional shuttle per hour between Metro Centre and Newcastle.

 

[Anvil1984]

In the new franchise specification there will be 2tph Newcastle to Carlisle 1 stopper, 1 express. This comes in December 2016 I believe

 

[70014IronDuke]

IIRC, quite a few years ago, perhaps prior to privatisation, didn't some trains continue or start from Whitehaven or Barrow?

Would some such through running to/from the Cumbrian Coast help connectivity and passenger numbers?

Or does this cause conflicting move issues at Carlisle - and the operator thinks it's just too much hassle for the additional passenger benefits?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the new franchise specification there will be 2tph Newcastle to Carlisle 1 stopper, 1 express. This comes in December 2016 I believe

Wow - that's some upgrade. The stopping service west of Hexham is pretty ropey, as I recall - wonder if passenger numbers will reflect the better service?

BTW, what is the line speed, anyone know? I assume it could be 70 mph, but not sure if the benighted pacers can achieve such velocities?

 

[Anvil1984]

Details are on a spreadsheet on this link (apologies it's Dec 2017)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...tsr-table-december-2017-monday-to-friday.xlsx

Through main body of day minimum of (my interpretation)

1 express Newcastle to Metrocentre, Prudhoe, Hexham and Carlisle
1 stopper (minimum stopping pattern) Newcastle to Dunston, Metrocentre, Wylam,Prudhoe,Stockfield,Riding Mill, Corbridge, Hexham, Haydon Bridge, Haltwhistle, Carllisle

Additional stops on a minimum 1 train per 2 hours basis roughly

 

[SeanG]

IIRC, quite a few years ago, perhaps prior to privatisation, didn't some trains continue or start from Whitehaven or Barrow?

There is still one evening train from Newcastle to Whitehaven.

Services are an hourly Newcastle-Carlisle with a couple continuing to Glasgow via Dumfries.
There is an hourly stopping service from Hexham - Newcastle and then down the Durham Coast (to either Middlesbrough or Nunthorpe)
There are two other services an hour to MetroCentre, one of which continues to Morpeth.

I think when 158s were based out of Heaton with Northern Spirit, they occasionally turned up on the Tyne Valley Line.

I don't think further connectivity to the Cumbrian Coast would be needed. It would be good to have a better connectivity with Manchester Airport services when going West/Southbound though

 

[70014IronDuke]

There is still one evening train from Newcastle to Whitehaven.

Services are an hourly Newcastle-Carlisle with a couple continuing to Glasgow via Dumfries.

Yes, that's true for much of the day, but the early morning service into Carlisle is more like 1 hr 40 mins gap.

I don't think further connectivity to the Cumbrian Coast would be needed. It would be good to have a better connectivity with Manchester Airport services when going West/Southbound though

You mean on the Cumbrian Coast line or ???

 

[Camden]

142 and 156 (Northern).
156 (ScotRail) on the joint services.

Can't think of any others!

Thanks. I'm looking to go Carlise - Newcastle and back just for the hell of it, but I refuse - refuse (if I could make that *blink* too I would) - to do this on a Pacer.

Confirmed my suspicions that a 142 class runs on the route, any insight in avoiding them? Is there a fixed service pattern, or destination where I can be sure of the 156?

 

[Kite159]

Thanks. I'm looking to go Carlise - Newcastle and back just for the hell of it, but I refuse - refuse (if I could make that *blink* too I would) - to do this on a Pacer.

Confirmed my suspicions that a 142 class runs on the route, any insight in avoiding them? Is there a fixed service pattern, or destination where I can be sure of the 156?

If the final destination/comes from is Glasgow then you will be sure of a Scotrail 156

 

[backontrack]

Yes, if your destination is Glasgow, Kilmarnock or Dumfries then you won't have to worry.

 

[Camden]

Thanks guys! Now all I have to do is wrangle a couple of days off work!!

 

[Liam]

For a main link across the Country this route is an utter disgrace especially when a Railbus turns up. It needs to be a high priority for better rolling stock in the new franchise.

Is it really such an important cross country link? It's really a Newcastle commuter line with a few handy extensions to Carlise and Glasgow.

From Newcastle to Manchester/Liverpool it quicker via Leeds and Glasgow is quicker via Edinburgh. Strategically it is important for engineering diversions elsewhere, but I'm not sure it so important from a passengers point of view.

 

[yorksrob]

Is it really such an important cross country link? It's really a Newcastle commuter line with a few handy extensions to Carlise and Glasgow.

From Newcastle to Manchester/Liverpool it quicker via Leeds and Glasgow is quicker via Edinburgh. Strategically it is important for engineering diversions elsewhere, but I'm not sure it so important from a passengers point of view.

The 142 I was on was busy enough. Also, it would be more useful if the route could help to take pressure off the TPE core, but that would require decent rolling stock.

 

[SeanG]

Is it really such an important cross country link? It's really a Newcastle commuter line with a few handy extensions to Carlise and Glasgow.

From Newcastle to Manchester/Liverpool it quicker via Leeds and Glasgow is quicker via Edinburgh. Strategically it is important for engineering diversions elsewhere, but I'm not sure it so important from a passengers point of view.

To be fair I often use it when coming from the NorthWest to Newcastle.
However I wouldn't say it is an important cross the country route, the main route obviously being the trans pennine route

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that it isn't that important in terms of passenger flows but it is important as a diversionary route for long distance services.

 

[darloscott]

I dare say there would probably be demand for more journeys being strangled by the lack of decent rolling stock, but this applies all across the country so it's a question of priorities.

 

[Camden]

I think it's probably a route that could be made useful. At the moment transpennine run a service from Liverpool, via Manchester and Leeds. With pressure on services through Manchester, and Liverpool contributing significantly to those pressures through the city I think it makes sense to look at creating some services from Liverpool which bypass Manchester.

A Liverpool, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Newcastle service I think would be very well received and used, and be time competitive versus today. Could even I suppose split at Carlisle with one portion going to Newcastle and another to Edinburgh or Glasgow.

The above just random thoughts after reading some of the comments.

 

[Iskra]

I think it's probably a route that could be made useful. At the moment transpennine run a service from Liverpool, via Manchester and Leeds. With pressure on services through Manchester, and Liverpool contributing significantly to those pressures through the city I think it makes sense to look at creating some services from Liverpool which bypass Manchester.

A Liverpool, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Newcastle service I think would be very well received and used, and be time competitive versus today. Could even I suppose split at Carlisle with one portion going to Newcastle and another to Edinburgh or Glasgow.

The above just random thoughts after reading some of the comments.

I'm not so sure TPE would find it that lucrative.

Compare the populations the two routes would serve.

Current route:

Newcastle (and effectively Sunderland too)- big uni city- 1.2m people
Durham- uni city, 50k people
Darlington,- 100k people
York- uni city, 150k people
Northallerton,
West Yorkshire- 3/4 big uni's- 1.8m people
Greater Manchester- big uni city- 2.5m people

= 5.8 million potential customers.

Proposed Route, all of which are well-served, possibly over-served for Penrith, Oxenholme and Carlisle

Newcastle (and Sunderland) 1.2m potential customers
Nothing until you get to Carlisle, 75k people
Penrith and Oxenholme (effectively Kendal) 45k people
Lancaster and morecambe- uni city, 80k people
Preston- uni city- 312k people

= 1.712 million potential customers

The most it could ever hope for would be a Northern regional service, but that would just eat up capacity on the WCML.

Liverpool is getting a fast service North of Carlisle which would partially solve the issue, if there is one.

 

[yorksrob]

To be fair, I think that even if Manchester/Liverpool travelers were guaranteed to be able to change from their InterCity trains to a decent standard Regional DMU at Carlisle, the route would be a better alternative than it is currently.

 

[47802]

I dare say there would probably be demand for more journeys being strangled by the lack of decent rolling stock, but this applies all across the country so it's a question of priorities.

I agree while it might not be North Transpennine its still a significant link that should get better Rolling Stock and better service.

 

[Flying Snail]

I think it's probably a route that could be made useful. At the moment transpennine run a service from Liverpool, via Manchester and Leeds. With pressure on services through Manchester, and Liverpool contributing significantly to those pressures through the city I think it makes sense to look at creating some services from Liverpool which bypass Manchester.

A Liverpool, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Newcastle service I think would be very well received and used, and be time competitive versus today. Could even I suppose split at Carlisle with one portion going to Newcastle and another to Edinburgh or Glasgow.

The above just random thoughts after reading some of the comments.

The problem is that you have fallen foul of the oft repeated fallacy of assuming that a service is primarily run to connect it's start and end points.

Some are but Liverpool-Newcastle is not one of those, the majority of passengers on these trains will not be travelling the full length and it is this traffic to Manchester, Leeds, York that is it's primary function.

In fact before 2014 there had not been a regular Liverpool-Newcastle service with the hourly TPE from Liverpool running to Scarborough and the Newcastle services mainly terminating at Manchester Airport.