Castlefield corridor potential solutions?

[daodao]

Nearly all the problems arise from complicated routeings and trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot.

I suggest that:

• The Castlefield corridor should not be used for long-distance trains running outside NW England/West Riding and should be used only by Northern Rail (+ freight to/from Trafford Park outside peak hours).
• Crew changes should not take place at Knott Mill, Oxford Road (apart from the bay platform for CLC line locals) or Piccadilly platforms 13/14.
• There should be no more than 12 tph along this route, including the 2 tph CLC locals terminating at Oxford Road.
• Early electrification of the CLC line would reduce use of the line by slower diesel trains.
• The Ordsall curve should only be used by trains from the Rochdale line to the Airport.
• Trains from the Standedge line to Piccadilly should all run via Guide Bridge and terminate at Piccadilly platforms 1-4.
• Early conversion of the line to Rose Hill Marple to Metrolink would release capacity at Piccadilly platforms 1-4.
• Stopping trains to the Airport should run every 15 minutes Mon-Sat daytime, run immediately following fast trains, and terminate at the main Piccadilly platforms.
• There should be 4 tph (Northern only) from the Airport running non-stop to Piccadilly and then via the Castlefield corridor to further destinations in NW England/W.Riding (1 to Liverpool, 1 to Blackpool via Bolton, and 2 to Rochdale and beyond via the Ordsall curve - Blackburn and Bradford/Leeds).

 

[Eccles1983]

Nearly all the problems arise from complicated routeings and trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot.

I suggest that:

• The Castlefield corridor should not be used for long-distance trains running outside NW England/West Riding and should be used only by Northern Rail (+ freight to/from Trafford Park outside peak hours).
• Crew changes should not take place at Knott Mill, Oxford Road (apart from the bay platform for CLC line locals) or Piccadilly platforms 13/14.
• There should be no more than 12 tph along this route, including the 2 tph CLC locals terminating at Oxford Road.
• Early electrification of the CLC line would reduce use of the line by slower diesel trains.
• The Ordsall curve should only be used by trains from the Rochdale line to the Airport.
• Trains from the Standedge line to Piccadilly should all run via Guide Bridge and terminate at Piccadilly platforms 1-4.
• Early conversion of the line to Rose Hill Marple to Metrolink would release capacity at Piccadilly platforms 1-4.
• Stopping trains to the Airport should run every 15 minutes Mon-Sat daytime, run immediately following fast trains, and terminate at the main Piccadilly platforms.
• There should be 4 tph (Northern only) from the Airport running non-stop to Piccadilly and then via the Castlefield corridor to further destinations in NW England/W.Riding (1 to Liverpool, 1 to Blackpool via Bolton, and 2 to Rochdale and beyond via the Ordsall curve - Blackburn and Bradford/Leeds).

Never going to happen.

The amount of councils that would kick off would be immense, never mind the airport which is a major driver for funding in the Manchester area.

Pie in the sky.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Knott Mill

If you can say that I can say Ringway!

In all seriousness, that sounds a good approach. I'd go further to say all services through 13 and 14 should be operated using Classes 331 or 195 in either 3 or 6-car formation, and therefore that door positions should be marked on the platforms on 13/14 (possibly even some kind of platform edge fencing as proto-platform-edge-doors) to ease queueing, boarding and alighting.

This approach should basically allow the Thameslink principles to be applied to Castlefield - which have met with relative success even with far, far higher numbers of passengers and trains.

With regard to Liverpool-Norwich, this should either run via Victoria and Denton to Stockport (my preferred option, and if it did it might as well stop at Denton and Reddish South to give them an hourly service, not to mention providing another connection from the Victoria lines to WCML and XC services at Stockport, decrowding Ordsall services a bit) or should be lopped back to the main Piccadilly trainshed.

 

[furnessvale]

Given the potential cost of various schemes, including provision for freight from Trafford Park to go west to the WCML, Piccadilly platforms 15-16 and four tracks from Picc to Castlefield is looking attractive.

 

[tbtc]

0kay - I like the OP's idea. Something needs to be done - the current situation is a mess.

We currently have the following timetable (from Piccadilly to Oxford Road):

• xx:01 - Blackpool (via Bolton) << ex Airport
• xx:09 - Liverpool (via CLC) << ex Airport
• xx:18 - Southport (via Bolton) << from Stockport
• xx:22 - Liverpool (via Chat Moss) << ex Crewe via Airport
• xx:26 - Scotland << ex Airport
• xx:30 - Blackpool (via Bolton) << from Stockport
• xx:34 - Newcastle << ex Airport
• xx:38 - Liverpool (via CLC) << from Stockport
• xx:47 - Cumbria << ex Airport
• xx:52 - Llandudno << ex Airport
• xx:57 - Teesside << ex Airport

So that's eleven trains per hour but with gaps of eight/nine minutes or just four minutes... the two Stockport to Bolton services run within twelve minutes of each other (meaning that the three Stockport services run within twenty minutes of each other), the two Airport services to Liverpool are within thirteen minutes of each other, it's a mess. I appreciate that there has to be space left for a freight service each hour but it seems like a timetable destined to fail.

Add in the bad stock (narrow doors on many services, short trains etc) and the fact that any problems squeezing trains through here will affect trains at Norwich/ Edinburgh/ Llandudno etc... something needs to be done.

BUT, building another couple of platforms so that we can continue our addiction to squeezing even more short trains through Castlefield to the Airport (e.g. the plan for DMUs from Bradford)... that doesn't tackle the root cause - we'd be a lot better with eight well spaced trains per hour (with a decent length and decent doors) - trying to run eleven trains per hour is not working - "eight trains in the hand are worth eleven in the bush" - I'd rather have a timetable that people could depend on.

With regard to Liverpool-Norwich, this should either run via Victoria and Denton to Stockport (my preferred option, and if it did it might as well stop at Denton and Reddish South to give them an hourly service, not to mention providing another connection from the Victoria lines to WCML and XC services at Stockport, decrowding Ordsall services a bit) or should be lopped back to the main Piccadilly trainshed.

One of those would make the already slow Sheffield - Manchester journeys take longer than they currently do (putting them at the mercy of more single track) and create the unattractive situation of some eastbound services departing from Piccadilly and some from Victoria - the other option would make Sheffield services more reliable by removing them from the disruption west of Manchester (and mean that all Sheffield services would depart from the main shed at Piccadilly).

I'm not saying which one I'd prefer though... (clue - I don't live in Denton)

 

[JonathanH]

We currently have the following timetable (from Piccadilly to Oxford Road)

Then add in the two Liverpool stoppers from Oxford Road (which don't help of course given the track layout between Oxford Road and Deansgate).

However, which trains are you going to remove to go from 11 to 8? The obvious candidates appear to be the Norwich to Liverpool and the two Transpennine services from across the Pennines.

However, does that translate to only 3tph running on the CLC line? The CLC can only send its trains to Deansgate.

Is there enough capacity in platforms 1-3 at Piccadilly or at Victoria for the Newcastle / Teeside services? Would Victoria even be feasible given there would be no practical link to the Airport?

If not these, what do you chop instead and do you chop them throughout? More trains at Victoria isn't an option so what is it? Cumbria services chopped at Lancaster? No through services from Scotland or North Wales to Manchester? Only 1tph between Wigan and Bolton? None of the routes appear not to warrant their level of service to Manchester.

The root cause of this is a shortage of terminating capacity in the centre of Manchester particularly from the North and West, the popularity of through services to the Airport and the growth in demand can't have been foreseen when the Windsor Link was opened in 1989 allowing Victoria to be reduced in size.

Of course, with longer trains running to the Airport now, that station is becoming congested and difficult to run as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there enough capacity in platforms 1-3 at Piccadilly or at Victoria for the Newcastle / Teeside services? Would Victoria even be feasible given there would be no practical link to the Airport?

Other than the 2tph via the Ordsall Chord he proposed?

If not these, what do you chop instead and do you chop them throughout? More trains at Victoria isn't an option so what is it? Cumbria services chopped at Lancaster? No through services from Scotland or North Wales to Manchester? Only 1tph between Wigan and Bolton? None of the routes appear not to warrant their level of service to Manchester.

I certainly think the Lakes and Furness service group could be lopped to the Lancaster bays, yes, or maybe to Preston for better connections. So that's one. 1tph from Wigan to Bolton is not ideal but is probably acceptable when you consider that there are 3 (or is it 4?) to Manchester via Atherton. North Wales, well, how about that Chester-Leeds becomes Llandudno-Leeds, then that's only one? That leaves the Scottish service which probably needs to stay.

 

[JonathanH]

Other than the 2tph via the Ordsall Chord he proposed?

The OP suggested two trains off the Rochdale lines use the Ordsall curve but they obviously aren't in the current timetable. They don't appear to indicate where the other 6tph allowed along the Castlefield corridor would go in their plans.

That leaves the Scottish service which probably needs to stay.

Yes, the Airport (or possibly the Stockport bays) is the only suitable place to terminate it.

I certainly think the Lakes and Furness service group could be lopped to the Lancaster bays, yes, or maybe to Preston for better connections. So that's one.

Do you propose to sacrifice the fast service from Wigan to Manchester via Parkside?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, the Airport (or possibly the Stockport bays) is the only suitable place to terminate it.

Or Victoria if something else could be removed to fit it in.

Do you propose to sacrifice the fast service from Wigan to Manchester via Parkside?

For the time being yes, it is a new service (even pre-1998 the Barrows/Windermeres ran via Westhoughton) and there isn't room for it unless it can run to Victoria instead. Maybe as an alternative the Atherton line could be dropped to 2tph to create room at Victoria for it - one from Kirkby then another one from Wigan on the opposite half hour, both all stations.

(Fundamentally we need the work to be done to both Castlefield and capacity work at Victoria - but unless we are willing to take hard decisions like these now it will be misery for the next 5-10 years even if that work was given the go ahead tomorrow).

 

[JonathanH]

Or Victoria

No, that discussion has been had on here recently - there is no capacity to lay the Scottish service over at Victoria given the length of turnaround it needs. As an electric service formed (in due course) of five coaches it can't go eastwards or westwards to stable and there isn't platform capacity for it to stay at Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, that discussion has been had on here recently - there is no capacity to lay the Scottish service over at Victoria given the length of turnaround it needs. As an electric service formed (in due course) of five coaches it can't go eastwards or westwards to stable and there isn't platform capacity for it to stay at Victoria.

Could the layover in Manchester be shortened by giving it a longer dwell at Preston, perhaps? 5 or 6 is usually available.

 

[Glenn1969]

Maybe after completion of Transpennine Route Upgrade it could be diverted to Leeds using the 802 bi mode capability after Victoria? Or is that unrealistic?

 

[JonathanH]

Maybe after completion of Transpennine Route Upgrade it could be diverted to Leeds using the 802 bi mode capability after Victoria? Or is that unrealistic?

There aren't enough 802s for a start.

 

[randyrippley]

There's a thought in post #3 which may be worth exploring further:
fit full size platform edge screens and doors, and only allow trains through the corridor which match them. It would increase the standing space on the platform and get rid of the yellow / red line nonsense. Properly done it would weather protect the platforms as well.
With TPE and Northern both standardising on similar CAF fleets now is the chance to do it.
By making the platforms safer could you also narrow the headway between trains?

 

[randyrippley]

Google maps shows a pair of sidings alongside Bromley St (to the east of Victoria) - if they were wired could they be used to turnback the Glasgows?

 

[daodao]

I stated in my original post that no services running by TPE, or beyond NW England/West Riding, should run on the Castlefield line. My suggested train services (all to be run by Northern) would be:

2 tph stopping M/c Oxford Road to CLC line, calling at Deansgate
2 tph Airport non-stop to Piccadilly and then to Todmorden via Ordsall Curve, with 1 extending to Blackburn and the other to Leeds; these would call at Oxford Rd, Deansgate and Salford and run non-stop Victoria-Rochdale
2 tph express Liverpool Lime Street via CLC line to Oxford Rd and Piccadilly, with 1 extending non-stop to the Airport and the other via Stockport and non-stop to Sheffield (but not beyond; there should be a separate M/c Piccadilly to Nottingham service calling at Stockport and Chinley and running via Dore South curve)
2 tph Blackpool and all stations to Bolton, then non-stop to Salford Crescent, Oxford Road and Piccadilly, with 1 extending non-stop to the Airport and the other to Hazel Grove
2 tph Wigan NW-Bolton and all stations including Deansgate to Oxford Road and Piccadilly, extending as a stopping service via Stockport to Alderley Edge/Crewe alternately.

If the CLC is electrified, the only diesel services would be 2 tph to Todmorden and beyond, and 1 tph Liverpool-Sheffield.

There would also be 4 tph (2 tph evenings and Sundays) all station stopping services running from the Airport to the main platforms at Piccadilly; 1 tph would start from Crewe and run via Styal.

All services via the Atherton, Chat Moss and Darwen lines would run to Victoria, as would the Scottish services. Connections (4 tph) from the Atherton and Darwen lines to the Airport would be available at Salford Crescent and Bolton respectively). The 1 tph from Scotland and 1 tph from North Wales would terminate at Victoria and run to sidings just east of the station to avoid platform blocking; other trains would run to destinations further east (Rochdale/Leeds or Stalybridge/Leeds & beyond). Trains from Windermere and Barrow should terminate at Oxenholme and Lancaster respectively, unless these lines are fully electrified.

 

[JonathanH]

The 1 tph from Scotland and 1 tph from North Wales would terminate at Victoria and run to sidings just east of the station to avoid platform blocking

Where are these sidings east of Victoria?

Maybe easier for the Scottish and North Wales services to reverse at Victoria and run across to Liverpool with Leeds TransPennine services no longer serving Victoria and all running to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. No need for 2tph from Newcastle if they are both going to Piccadilly and terminating.

 

[JonathanH]

In fact, maybe the break up of TPE is the natural extension of this.

Split Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Preston - Scotland off to the West Coast operator.

Run a high capacity Piccadilly (or Victoria) - Leeds shuttle

Split off York to Scarborough, York to Redcar to both only run north of York.

Pass the residual Leeds to Newcastle / Edinburgh service to Cross Country (or the East Coast operator) using platforms 7/14 at Leeds.

Hull services to Bradford Interchange.

South TransPennine from Piccadilly to Cleethorpes.

No TPE routes at the Airport.

 

[Along the bay]

Would a western access route to manchester airport help in any way ? Trains could then be extended to Chester or Crewe , reducing platform requirements at Manchester airport.

 

[Ploughman]

In fact, maybe the break up of TPE is the natural extension of this.

Split Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Preston - Scotland off to the West Coast operator.

Run a high capacity Piccadilly (or Victoria) - Leeds shuttle

Split off York to Scarborough, York to Redcar to both only run north of York.

Pass the residual Leeds to Newcastle / Edinburgh service to Cross Country (or the East Coast operator) using platforms 7/14 at Leeds.

Hull services to Bradford Interchange.

South TransPennine from Piccadilly to Cleethorpes.

No TPE routes at the Airport.

With no TPE at the airport. What then for the passenger from the airport going to the east?
With all bags and baggage plus whatever family and changing trains in Picc or Vic.

 

[JonathanH]

With no TPE at the airport. What then for the passenger from the airport going to the east?
With all bags and baggage plus whatever family and changing trains in Picc or Vic.

I think the OP's premise is that until there is no reliable way with the available infrastructure to get trains from the Huddersfield route through to the Airport. The previous method involved crossing the throat of Piccadilly, the recently introduced method via the Ordsall Curve is impossible to manage through the Castlefield Corridor. As a consequence, until some step change in the infrastructure happens, no TPE trains from the east should access the Airport.

A simple Leeds to Manchester shuttle using dedicated platforms at each end (like Edinburgh to Glasgow Queen Street) would manage the operation more successfully than the current operation over this route that appears to pick up delays both north of Leeds and between Victoria and Liverpool / the Airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With no TPE at the airport. What then for the passenger from the airport going to the east?
With all bags and baggage plus whatever family and changing trains in Picc or Vic.

As I've repeatedly pointed out this is no more difficult than getting from the airport station to the check in desk.

 

[randyrippley]

As I've repeatedly pointed out this is no more difficult than getting from the airport station to the check in desk.

If you reopened / rebuilt Mayfield specifically as a shuttle terminal you could put the checkin desk IN the station, so reducing luggage hassles.

 

[158756]

Google maps shows a pair of sidings alongside Bromley St (to the east of Victoria) - if they were wired could they be used to turnback the Glasgows?

Where are these sidings east of Victoria?

As far as I can tell they don't exist. What you can see on Google maps are the Metrolink lines disappearing into a tunnel.

Maybe easier for the Scottish and North Wales services to reverse at Victoria and run across to Liverpool with Leeds TransPennine services no longer serving Victoria and all running to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. No need for 2tph from Newcastle if they are both going to Piccadilly and terminating.

Not much use for travelling from Wales or Scotland to Liverpool though, and whilst it gets them out of the way at Victoria the extra journey length will worsen reliability.

If TPE did leave Victoria and cease to serve Liverpool however, there might be space to terminate trains in platforms 3 and 4 at Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you reopened / rebuilt Mayfield specifically as a shuttle terminal you could put the checkin desk IN the station, so reducing luggage hassles.

This has never been successful anywhere it has been done, largely because train delays tend to cause luggage to miss flights and there is the security issue. It also requires duplication.

 

[MalaiseForever]

This has never been successful anywhere it has been done, largely because train delays tend to cause luggage to miss flights and there is the security issue. It also requires duplication.

Could be wrong but Shanghai airport has luggage drop off in the city centre I think?

EDIT: Hong Kong airport

 

[randyrippley]

This has never been successful anywhere it has been done, largely because train delays tend to cause luggage to miss flights and there is the security issue. It also requires duplication.

Hard to believe delays would cause an issue as the passengers would be on the same train as the luggage: if one is delayed then so is the other

 

[mmh]

This has never been successful anywhere it has been done, largely because train delays tend to cause luggage to miss flights and there is the security issue. It also requires duplication.

That's not true, it was very popular in Hong Kong. The ability to give your luggage away in the centre of a city and spend the hours between checking out of a hotel in a city and your flight in a city rather than at the airport is quite attractive. Probably far less of a market for it at Manchester though.

At Hong Kong, the baggage wasn't taken by train after it was checked-in, it went by road to the airport.

 

[Ianno87]

As I've repeatedly pointed out this is no more difficult than getting from the airport station to the check in desk.

But doing it twice, not once.

 

[daodao]

Where are these sidings east of Victoria?

Maybe easier for the Scottish and North Wales services to reverse at Victoria and run across to Liverpool with Leeds TransPennine services no longer serving Victoria and all running to Piccadilly via Guide Bridge. No need for 2tph from Newcastle if they are both going to Piccadilly and terminating.

My proposals do not suggest abandoning the 2 tph through express service Liverpool-Victoria-Leeds-York and beyond; it would be detrimental to break up this key service, which should be a minimum 6 carriage train. There should also be 2 tph semi-fast services from Piccadilly platforms 1-4 to Leeds to compliment the express service.

An electrified siding could be created east of Victoria for the Scotch express, and the diesel N.Wales service could run to Newton Heath depot if necessary.