Central Line OOC

[Sad Sprinter]

Just a follow on from the GCR rationalisaiton thread, would there be any merits in constructing a covered footway or travelator from North Acton Central Line station to OOC? As an alternative to a West Ruislip to OOC Chiltern service, perhaps.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Presumably the purpose of a Chiltern service to Old Oak Common is to enable residents of, for example, Gerrards Cross, High Wycombe and Bicester to access Crossrail easily. Such passengers might be unenthusiastic about changing trains at West Ruislip which involves going up and down stairs and then again at North Acton.

 

[cle]

I always thought it might make sense for overall connectivity. Of course it duplicates many journeys on Crossrail - but not all journeys, Shepherds Bush and White City most prominently, Notting Hill Gate too, plus East Acton (for hospitals especially). Stratford has the same situation.

You might argue Ealing Broadway offers much of this connectivity though.

 

[Ianno87]

I always thought it might make sense for overall connectivity. Of course it duplicates many journeys on Crossrail - but not all journeys, Shepherds Bush and White City most prominently, Notting Hill Gate too, plus East Acton (for hospitals especially). Stratford has the same situation.

You might argue Ealing Broadway offers much of this connectivity though.

Shepherd's Bush will be accessible should an Overground station be built on the West London Line.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Shepherd's Bush will be accessible should an Overground station be built on the West London Line.

Eh? There is a Shepherds Bush station on the West London Line. It's one of London Overground's busiest stations.

 

[Ianno87]

Eh? There is a Shepherds Bush station on the West London Line. It's one of London Overground's busiest stations.

As in building a station at Old Oak Common on the West London Line, so that passengers can change onto Overground services there in order to reach the existing Shepherd's Bush Overground station.

 

[cle]

That's why I mentioned it, as there is a risk on the WLL. In any case, it's two different connections (and I think if one LO happens, it'll be NLL + new West Circular Dudding Hill thingy )

 

[Fincra5]

As in building a station at Old Oak Common on the West London Line, so that passengers can change onto Overground services there in order to reach the existing Shepherd's Bush Overground station.

Suppose you could have one somewhere like that (Highlighted in Yellow) with a Bridge over to the OOC Station (Red Line).

 

[JonathanH]

Suppose you could have one somewhere like that (Highlighted in Yellow) with a Bridge over to the OOC Station (Red Line).

Doesn't it make more sense to try to fit in a 'platform on the bridge' in the bottom right hand corner so it can be served by services to both Willesden Junction and Watford Junction?

 

[Ianno87]

Doesn't it make more sense to try to fit in a 'platform on the bridge' in the bottom right hand corner so it can be served by services to both Willesden Junction and Watford Junction?

Aside from the much more complex (£££) engineering, it pushes the platforms much, much further from the HS2/Crossrail platforms and main station concourse.

View attachment 92120
Suppose you could have one somewhere like that (Highlighted in Yellow) with a Bridge over to the OOC Station (Red Line).

Basically spot on.

 

[D365]

Doesn't it make more sense to try to fit in a 'platform on the bridge' in the bottom right hand corner so it can be served by services to both Willesden Junction and Watford Junction?

Aside from the much more complex (£££) engineering, it pushes the platforms much, much further from the HS2/Crossrail platforms and main station concourse.

Indeed - how frequent is the Southern service anyway, compared to London Overground?

 

[Fincra5]

Indeed - how frequent is the Southern service anyway, compared to London Overground?

1TPH I think, not really worth it.

 

[The Planner]

I thought there were plans for two stations to the north of OOC anyway, or have they been binned now? Hythe Road (basically the one above) and Old Oak Common Lane?

 

[Mojo]

I thought there were plans for two stations to the north of OOC anyway, or have they been binned now? Hythe Road (basically the one above) and Old Oak Common Lane?

Yes that’s correct; Old Oak Common Lane for NLL services and Hythe Road for WLL services.

This however doesn’t seem to help Central line customers who will effectively have to go to Shepherd’s Bush, back the way they came on the Overground to Hythe Lane, and then still walk.

Given the number of railway lines that all cross in this area, it is always a shame that no attempt whatsoever is made to facilitate a decent interchange.

 

[zwk500]

Yes that’s correct; Old Oak Common Lane for NLL services and Hythe Road for WLL services.

This however doesn’t seem to help Central line customers who will effectively have to go to Shepherd’s Bush, back the way they came on the Overground to Hythe Lane, and then still walk.

Given the number of railway lines that all cross in this area, it is always a shame that no attempt whatsoever is made to facilitate a decent interchange.

On the contrary, the sheer number of railway line that cross near but not quite over each other makes a decent interchange for all next to impossible, unless you built the world's largest concourse.

Personally I'd have just build a high-level walkway with travelators from Willesden Jn High Level to OOC rather than 2 new stations, but I guess that doesn't get as good publicity.

There's a good map on wikipedia showing all the current and proposed stations in the area:

 

[Ianno87]

Personally I'd have just build a high-level walkway with travelators from Willesden Jn High Level to OOC rather than 2 new stations, but I guess that doesn't get as good publicity.

But also less useful.

 

[zwk500]

But also less useful.

But a damn sight cheaper and doesn't require a retime that will impact a major number of freights on either the NLL or WLL.

 

[Mojo]

On the contrary, the sheer number of railway line that cross near but not quite over each other makes a decent interchange for all next to impossible, unless you built the world's largest concourse.

Personally I'd have just build a high-level walkway with travelators from Willesden Jn High Level to OOC rather than 2 new stations, but I guess that doesn't get as good publicity.

There's a good map on wikipedia showing all the current and proposed stations in the area:

The current proposal came about following a 2014 proposal / consultation which had 3 options.

I have attached Option A and Option B which are on the TfL Flickr page, incase they disappear.

Option A suggested that WLL trains, instead of leaving Willesden Jcn station along the NLL route toward Acton Central, that they would head toward Acton Wells Jn, stop at the station on Old Oak Common Lane and then a new line would be built swinging trains back round toward the current WLL route. Option B suggested that instead of WLL trains from Shepherds Bush going to Willesden Jcn station they would go towards Mitre Bridge and then back around on the freight lines past the Powerday sidings and serve the new station at Old Oak Common Lane. This would have meant that not all trains from Shepherds Bush would have served the development.

 

[zwk500]

The current proposal came about following a 2014 proposal / consultation which had 3 options.

I have attached Option A and Option B which are on the TfL Flickr page, incase they disappear.

Option A suggested that WLL trains, instead of leaving Willesden Jcn station along the NLL route toward Acton Central, that they would head toward Acton Wells Jn, stop at the station on Old Oak Common Lane and then a new line would be built swinging trains back round toward the current WLL route. Option B suggested that instead of WLL trains from Shepherds Bush going to Willesden Jcn station they would go towards Mitre Bridge and then back around on the freight lines past the Powerday sidings and serve the new station at Old Oak Common Lane. This would have meant that not all trains from Shepherds Bush would have served the development.

The option proposed is by far the most sensible of those options, although it still doesn't really help with the Central line.

All 3 back up my statement that you'll never get a perfect interchange. It's about which compromises you make.

 

[Mojo]

All 3 back up my statement that you'll never get a perfect interchange. It's about which compromises you make.

It still doesnt take away from the fact that it is unfortunate that there does not appear to be any kind of effort being made to facilitate interchange between the various lines that pass in very close proximity to each other in the area. Look for instance at how close the Central line is to Old Oak Common. The Overground link will definitely improve things. I very often for instance visit Kew Gardens from North West London, and it's presently quite awkward, with either a trip on the Piccadilly to Acton, then District to Turnham Green, and then the District again (or a 15 min walk from Acton Tw to South Acton), at least the Overground will speed that up when it goes to Old Oak, although the walk will still be unpleasant around North Acton station and again either putting the Overground station a little further to the south, or at least putting in some kind of walkway.

 

[HSTEd]

I would think we would want to get as close a connection between the Central Line, Crossrail, and HS2 as possible.
The entire raison d'etre for this facility is to spread the load across more transport systems.

What's the minimum curve radius of tube lines?
Could we put a loop into the Central Line to bring it close to the OOC concourse?

Ofcourse, with ATO, we could have Central trains reverse without too much difficulty......

 

[Mojo]

Ofcourse, with ATO, we could have Central trains reverse without too much difficulty......

There is still a minimum 4 minutes for a train to turn around, as the train operator needs to be in the leading cab to change ends and give the command to depart. Even if there was a Train Operator at the departure end ready to take over right away, this would still extend journey times unsatisfactorily; as whilst Crossrail will take over much of the demand from Ealing Broadway, there are still no suitable alternative routes from stations on the West Ruislip branch.

 

[HSTEd]

There is still a minimum 4 minutes for a train to turn around, as the train operator needs to be in the leading cab to change ends and give the command to depart. Even if there was a Train Operator at the departure end ready to take over right away, this would still extend journey times unsatisfactorily; as whilst Crossrail will take over much of the demand from Ealing Broadway, there are still no suitable alternative routes from stations on the West Ruislip branch.

Wiki says the Central Line has 61m radius curves in it already, so we could fit a loop and conventional two platform station in without enormous demolitions, seems to be some sort of industrial building but thats about it.

 

[cle]

I agree it's a shame. Yes the complex is sprawling - and we should probably consider Willesden Junction as fully separate - but the NLL seems a no-brainer, even if Hythe Road is difficult.

But that X -> Clapham Junction -> HS2 connection will be incredibly well used, so I think it is worth it.

If the Chiltern platforms were built, per that map - they aren't too far from North Acton, which could be moved and potentially downsized to two platforms, to enable a second Chiltern line. White City does a lot of the regulation already.

 

[Ianno87]

Wiki says the Central Line has 61m radius curves in it already, so we could fit a loop and conventional two platform station in without enormous demolitions, seems to be some sort of industrial building but thats about it.

Although *new* sharp curves like that are not at all ideal, because of the maintenance and wear & tear implications.

 

[Fincra5]

I agree it's a shame. Yes the complex is sprawling - and we should probably consider Willesden Junction as fully separate - but the NLL seems a no-brainer, even if Hythe Road is difficult.

But that X -> Clapham Junction -> HS2 connection will be incredibly well used, so I think it is worth it.

If the Chiltern platforms were built, per that map - they aren't too far from North Acton, which could be moved and potentially downsized to two platforms, to enable a second Chiltern line. White City does a lot of the regulation already.

Yeah, and is the LO via the WLL every 15mins? (Doesn't stop any more than the Southern) so I can see that being very useful for passengers who go via CLJ. Although Victoria to Euston is only about 10mins..

 

[cle]

Yeah, and is the LO via the WLL every 15mins? (Doesn't stop any more than the Southern) so I can see that being very useful for passengers who go via CLJ. Although Victoria to Euston is only about 10mins..

CJ covers the Waterloo world as well.

WLL is at least every 15 mins, and touted to be more in time (same calls as Southern, yes).

 

[Fincra5]

CJ covers the Waterloo world as well.

WLL is at least every 15 mins, and touted to be more in time (same calls as Southern, yes).

It does but I was just using an example

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I suppose what could work, would be to divert the WLL over the old GWR tracks next to the Central Line through East Acton, connecting onto the NLL near Hythe Road. But from looking at Google Earth it seems some of the trackbed near White City has been built on, plus it would mean a station at North Pole Road coudn't be constructed.

 

[cle]

We can only hope that TfL improve their finances, and their begging bowl is looked upon more favorably. Byford will help this along, I'm sure - I hope he gets on better with Khan than with Cuomo, but the sad fact is that the current Tories will be obstructionist to a Labour Mayor.

In reality, both play a big role.
A combined NLL/WLO station, ideally four tracks/platforms - which covers the full NLL, routes down to Richmond, Kew Bridge (!) and Hounslow and across the North Circular arc. Much more about local connectivity, employment and so forth. But also bringing a lot of SW/W/NW London to HS2 and Heathrow access.

A WLL station (ideally with Southern, but viable without, ie. Hythe) - which is more about regional connectivity and accessible to inner West London (inc Shepherds Bush) and useful as a spread of traffic originating from the NLL. Now to stitch it up with GOBLIN