357
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Nov 2018
- Messages
- 1,378
I'm aware. The TOC I work for has just introduced a micro fleet of two units.
If there was such a need to do it, it's not impossible.
Agreed.
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Central line - shortage of serviceable trains
- Thread starter Busman
- Start date
If there was such a need to do it, it's not impossible.
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Nym
Established Member
Just to add to the "use other trains".
There were a lot of plans for an interim fleet that could be used to cover the outer reaches shuttles and free up stock for CLIP.
This did include;
Replacing the W&C stock with 1972/1967 Hybrid stock from various sources and send the remaining 1992TS (Ex.BR out)
Re-building D78 double enders for the north end of the Hainault Loop shuttles.
Releasing 1972TS from the Bakerloo by uplifting the LOROL service to 6 or 9tph and curtailing the Bakerloo to Queens Park.
Also excluded from CLIP was;
Converting to 4 car units.
And way back, the floors work was also excluded, until SNC-Lavalin found out what state the floors were in.
But...
Management and strategy was not the best on CLIP when it eventually was incepted 6 years late, then delayed by the creation of "TfL Engineering" while also being delayed by the typical TfL head in sand approach to fleet managment. Note that I say TfL, not LUL.
I would post something more witty as a retort, but I thought I'd maintain the standards.
There were a lot of plans for an interim fleet that could be used to cover the outer reaches shuttles and free up stock for CLIP.
This did include;
Replacing the W&C stock with 1972/1967 Hybrid stock from various sources and send the remaining 1992TS (Ex.BR out)
Re-building D78 double enders for the north end of the Hainault Loop shuttles.
Releasing 1972TS from the Bakerloo by uplifting the LOROL service to 6 or 9tph and curtailing the Bakerloo to Queens Park.
Also excluded from CLIP was;
Converting to 4 car units.
And way back, the floors work was also excluded, until SNC-Lavalin found out what state the floors were in.
But...
Management and strategy was not the best on CLIP when it eventually was incepted 6 years late, then delayed by the creation of "TfL Engineering" while also being delayed by the typical TfL head in sand approach to fleet managment. Note that I say TfL, not LUL.
Congrats, you managed to spot someone's poorer quality English.
I would post something more witty as a retort, but I thought I'd maintain the standards.
TfL are moving towards having the same stock on different lines, the S stock is used on four different lines and the 2024 stock will eventually be used on four lines as well. I wonder if the Jubilee and Northern Line trains might be replaced with similar stock.
Nym
Established Member
S Stock has at least four different versions used across the 'four' lines. 2024 stock will have at least three different lengths when fully deployed, and at least two signalling systems.
As much as TfL 'aspires' to common stock across lines, it fails at the first hurdle of letting contracts in an appropriate manner, let alone managing the delivery of their fleet so that there actually are commonality and compatibility between their fleets.
Nym
Established Member
There are some significant design variations within each class as well as the S7+1 etc. Mostly to try and "reduce costs" as how the client saw it, when in fact, the re-design work just made things worse.
(Not to mention TfL, Metronet and Litchurch Lane's obsession with round connectors, but that's a separate matter).
(Not to mention TfL, Metronet and Litchurch Lane's obsession with round connectors, but that's a separate matter).
I understand that there's a technical constraint on interrupting the current upgrade programme at a delicate stage, and using the half-sets. But from a political perspective if there are drivers but not enough sets then surely going to an emergency timetable would be helpful? There may be a lot of political heat from reducing the service at the quietest parts of the route, or supplementing with buses, but there's also political heat from trains being too full to get on in the City every Tuesday -Thursday peak, and so on and so forth.
Seems a good compromise to me
Snow1964
Established Member
Those built as the new tube (Leytonstone - Newbury Park) were tube height from opening in 1940s
All the others were as built by Great Eastern Railway, (except where additional platforms created, at Leytonstone and Hainault) although since ending of full size rolling stock, track has been raised at some.
Dstock7080
Established Member
Point failure not related to rolling stock
... and a signalling problem in the South Woodford era. Not a good day for the Central line at all!
Indeed, a cracked rail at North Acton Junction. Trains routed to West Ruislip only with an emergency speed restriction.
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MaidaVale
Member
Latest rumors are that another is in the works to reduce the service further. Hopefully this one actually makes a difference, as the last one didn't help us all that much in the end.
Let's just say I'm glad that I'm no longer on the Central line as the problems that the near future looks to be holding are not ones I'm keen to deal with. I don't see this issue getting much better any time soon, regardless of a timetable reduction.
H&I
Member
It’s fortunate this shortage of trains is only happening now that the Elizabeth line has opened.
bramling
Veteran Member
It has been going on for some years, what we are seeing at the moment is a particularly rough section of a very big patch.
I remember quite a few years ago talking to a driver who had transferred to Hainault from another line. Even then it was remarked upon how much of a novelty it was that “the trains are so unreliable that half the time your train is cancelled”.
It’s quite a shame really, as when they work the trains are operationally quite decent, and the ATP/ATO system is in principle so much better than the Thales system on the Jubilee, Northern and sub-surface lines.
My sad prediction is the whole situation will probably come to a head when something safety-related occurs. It’s hardly great that the control staff, themselves under-resourced as a result of Covid and heavily reliant on overtime, are working flat out every day having to manage the constant shortage of both drivers and trains. I’m sure we can all see what the possible consequence of this could be.
MaidaVale
Member
Yeah the situation in service control isn't great at the minute on the Central, but it's slowly improving and is certainly pointing in the right direction. There are a number of new trainees either at or headed for Central service control which should help alleviate the pressure on them somewhat.
The time I spent up there was during the worst patch of shortages during spring/early summer 23 when there were little-to-no trainees, and the levels of strain were really bad. At least they shouldn't have to struggle with lack of control staff AND lack of trains simultaneously too much anymore.
Not sure if I agree with you on the point about the ATP/ATO system personally, but I work on a conventional line so I'm probably not entitled to much of an opinion haha (I have worked with both the Central and Northern systems previously however)
contrex
Member
I'm sure I read some years ago (in connection with the 1938 stock on the Isle of Wight) that the industrial base, skills, etc, for that sort of work was waning at quite a rate, to the extent that there weren't that many firms to choose from any more.
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There's more than you think. I've never known it be an issue to get a motor rewound, even very old DC stuff.
Whether you have a whole load of procurement internal rules and approvals that mean you can't just go to the market is an internal issue for TfL/LU. But there's no shortage of places able to do this work.
I even know of an industrial equipment manufacturer that builds their own motors in house, from scratch to their own designs. Had a tour round the place years ago and was astonished to see a guy assembling a largeish motor from base components (that had been manufactured in house).
A friend of mine runs a small business making distributors and alternators etc for vintage cars. My impression from talking to him is that there is a lot of skilled cottage industry-scale manufacturing, but the medium sized enterprises just aren't there any more, and that's the sector that is needed to support a fleet of trains
contrex
Member
In the wider world of industry, DC commutator motors have been on the decline since the late 1970s, when AC motors with VFD started to come in. Typical story:
main line 313 / 317 / 319 GEC (EE legacy) motors even in 2010s years there was only one contractor in British Isles could do those DC motor overhauls.
note I said British Isles, as the outfit was based in Dublin, and not part of a GB company.
it is not true there is no shortage; there is a shortage, and is based on people with the skills to actually do the job
To me it seems like the motor replacement was probably slightly planned around the opening of the Elizabeth line.
However February will be interesting on the weekends; Stratford - Shenfield is having its regular annual closure so hordes of Elizabeth line and Greater Anglia passengers are going to be descending on Newbury Park by bus, and that could get interesting if the service is still in Severe Delays on a busy Saturday...
contrex
Member
Re my posts above about the demise of the classic DC motor, I should make it clear that I feel rather sad in a way about that. They were the first electrical machines I learned about (via an interest in railway electrification). The mysteries of under, level, and over compounding, how to clean a commutator, cooking off moisture, starter design... Believe me, I'll miss them.
It is Sunday...
