Chiltern Main Line during the 70s/80s

[30907]

A Class 47 standing in for a DMU

In slightly more detail.
Vice = instead of (as in Vice-chair etc)
Turn = (or diagram or duty or....) train or consecutive series of trains worked by the same locomotive (and coaches) or multiple unit
Duff = spotter slang for class 47
EH = ETH = Electric Train Heating fitted (the 47s were first built when steam heating was the norm for loco hauled trains - by this time most older coaches had been re-fitted for ETH)

 

[krus_aragon]

There was one 47 hauled Network Express that ran from Marylebone; I'll have to find the photo and scan it again although I have posted it on here before a couple of years ago if anyone wants to try to get through the search system to find it.

I will have a look for the picture over the weekend - but in the meantime for those search fanatics, I think it was the "Guess the station" thread I posted it in. Round about 2 - 3 years ago.

It was definitely a regular weekday evening peak working.

I'm in a search fanatic mood this morning: [post]568574[/post]

 

[70014IronDuke]

No. The train and its morning counterpart were the remains of the Paddington-New Street service introduced in 1967 and mentioned above. The rest of these had been altered to run via Oxford in the mid 70s/early 80s.

Yes, this is how I remember it - vaguely.

Two-hourly service, IIRC.

Did they run PAD - Snow Hill after the WCML electrification for one year then?

I remember seeing a Western at New Street in 1975 and thinking how ironic it was, that when introduced in 1961-1962 they were first allocated to the PAD-Birkenhead line to do away with the Kings, and 13 years later they were back in their last years on what had become a secondary service.

I don't know when BR diverted these trains via Oxford and Reading - or if they did it gradually or in one fell swoop (except for the one rump train still routed via Bicester).

I did travel once in 1981 Brum to PAD via Oxford.

 

[30907]

Yes, this is how I remember it - vaguely.

Two-hourly service, IIRC.

Did they run PAD - Snow Hill after the WCML electrification for one year then?

I don't know when BR diverted these trains via Oxford and Reading - or if they did it gradually or in one fell swoop (except for the one rump train still routed via Bicester).

New Street wasn't electrified until March 67.

The diversions were rather in dribs and drabs IIRC. There was a late Up 2040 via Oxford off New Street by 1972 or 73, which would have been the back working of the commuter train we were discussing, but I'm fairly certain the rest were still on the Joint line.

 

[RPM]

I also stand to be corrected...

I THINK Birmingham services started before the 168s arrived. In the early days it was a much reduced service compared to today. Again I THINK it was when the service was boosted that the 168s were brought on board.

Yes the Birmingham service predates the 168s. I forget how frequent it was at first, but once the first 168s entered service (in 1998?) it was one train an hour to Birmingham. When Warwick Parkway opened in 2000 a second train per hour was introduced as far as WRP, which then ran ECS to Hatton to turn back. This was later extended to Birmingham but I forget the year.

 

[70014IronDuke]

New Street wasn't electrified until March 67.
... .

Gosh, was it as late as that? Easy to forget it was a second phase after the April 66 start of the main line.

Excuse thread drift, but how did they work the Euston-Brum trains in that transition period. I don't remember seeing any Cl 40s on trains at the southern end of the WCML after April 66, so I assume they changed locos at Rugby?

Wow, it seems another world thinking back. Well, I suppose it was!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm in a search fanatic mood this morning: [post]568574[/post]

Thanks; saved me a lot of time.

Looking in my albums, that was taken at 17.14 on 9th March 1991.

 

[SouthDevonian]

Re. New St <> Padd workings. The May '70-May '71 timetable shows an approx 2 hour service via High Wycombe whilst the May '73-May '74 edition shows these routed via Oxford, except for the one peak hour each way. I don't have the 2 timetables in between but the first time that PSUL shows the peak time trains running via Old Oak W Jn - Greenford W Jn is May '73-May '74 so May '73 is probably when the route change occurred.

Incidentally, PSUL shows both Saturday trains using the slightly longer Greenford loop (ie. Greenford LTE Bay Jn - Greenford W Jn) instead of the direct line.

The sight of a Western at New St suggests a failure on the WR as the LMR didn't like hydraulics on their territory. They had insisted the 47s were used on the Padd-Birmingham trains instead of Westerns. The same applied a few years earlier at Crewe when the WR started to run Warships there on the SW<>NW trains via the North to West line (ie. Severn Tunnel; Hereford; Shrewsbury). As a result, the Warships were replaced by 47s within a few years.

 

[30907]

72-73 shows a halfway stage with 08xx 12xx 17xx via the joint line and the gaps filled by Paddington-Banbury workings which I presume were DMU. That detail had completely passed me by - but I was in Oxford then and more focused on services there.

The 2040 Up I referred to earlier wasn't running so far back, but is definitely in the 1975 GBTT.

 

[ac6000cw]

The sight of a Western at New St suggests a failure on the WR as the LMR didn't like hydraulics on their territory. They had insisted the 47s were used on the Padd-Birmingham trains instead of Westerns. The same applied a few years earlier at Crewe when the WR started to run Warships there on the SW<>NW trains via the North to West line (ie. Severn Tunnel; Hereford; Shrewsbury). As a result, the Warships were replaced by 47s within a few years.

I spent a lot of Saturdays at New Street in the early-mid 1970s, and there was a regular 'Western' hauled Paddington-New Street-Paddington working (arr/dep NS around lunchtime). It was usually the highlight of the trainspotting day - if you were feeling flush a day return to Solihull would provide a Mk1 window-down ride behind the loco too

In the same period a Western would quite often haul a daily china clay train from Cornwall as far as Bescot (via Stourbridge and Dudley). The sight of a Western at the head of a set of short-wheelbase white wooden-bodied wagons, passing the lower-quadrant semaphores at Stourbridge Junction reminded you that this was definitely ex-GWR territory...

The Westerns were looking decidedly down-at-heel by then though - the 50s were on the way to the WR from the LMR (after the 1974 northern WCML electrification).

 

[Cowley]

I spent a lot of Saturdays at New Street in the early-mid 1970s, and there was a regular 'Western' hauled Paddington-New Street-Paddington working (arr/dep NS around lunchtime). It was usually the highlight of the trainspotting day - if you were feeling flush a day return to Solihull would provide a Mk1 window-down ride behind the loco too

In the same period a Western would quite often haul a daily china clay train from Cornwall as far as Bescot (via Stourbridge and Dudley). The sight of a Western at the head of a set of short-wheelbase white wooden-bodied wagons, passing the lower-quadrant semaphores at Stourbridge Junction reminded you that this was definitely ex-GWR territory...

The Westerns were looking decidedly down-at-heel by then though - the 50s were on the way to the WR from the LMR (after the 1974 northern WCML electrification).

I've seen photos of the china clay working in magazines and it must have been a great thing to see in Birmingham back then.

 

[SouthDevonian]

The use of the Western from Padd to New St & back in the mid ‘70s must be an indicator of the desperate measures the WR had to use to compensate for the late delivery of the 50s from the LMR. No doubt Birmingham Control would have kept a close eye on it to ensure it was quickly returned to the WR. I expect all available WR 47s were required, particularly on summer Saturdays, to cover ETH workings on the GW main lines, especially that to the SW.

I vaguely recall there was a nationwide shortage of 47s around that time. One consequence was pairs of Type 2s (mainly Class 26s) continuing to work the heavier trains over the Highland Line until the late ‘70s.

 

[ac6000cw]

Yes, everybody wanted 47s for passenger trains but there weren't enough to go round - hence things like the use of top-and-tail 26s on the Glasgow-Edinburgh trains, and fitting ETH to a small batch of 45s for the MML trains. That situation didn't really get better until the mass introduction of HSTs which freed up a lot of ETH fitted 47s and Mk2 stock for use on the second-tier IC services.

The Birmingham - Reading legs of the NE/NW-Poole trains were almost always 47 hauled (they swapped to a 33 south of Reading). I can remember one occasion
(desperation due to a failure and no spare 47) when a 33 made it to Birmingham - it was dispatched back south as quickly as possible...

 

[frodshamfella]

I remember seeing a concert at Wembley it was probably the early 80s. I found I could take a Train from Marylebone (which id never been to) to Wembley Complex Station on a DMU. I found it very exciting and a much more interesting alternative than the Metropolitan Line which most concert goers took. Coming from Bexleyheath, going on a DMU was something very new.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

The Westerns were looking decidedly down-at-heel by then though - the 50s were on the way to the WR from the LMR (after the 1974 northern WCML electrification).

It might just have been a Saturday when I saw the Cl 52. I do seem to remember it was mid-dayish. I wasn't normally at New Street at that time of day, so I may have been 'out of course' for some reason. But yes, the loco was definitely down-at-heel, this was all part of the irony of my thoughts at the time - 13 years from flagship locomotives to near end-of-the-line.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The use of the Western from Padd to New St & back in the mid ‘70s must be an indicator of the desperate measures the WR had to use to compensate for the late delivery of the 50s from the LMR. No doubt Birmingham Control would have kept a close eye on it to ensure it was quickly returned to the WR. I expect all available WR 47s were required, particularly on summer Saturdays, to cover ETH workings on the GW main lines, especially that to the SW.

I vaguely recall there was a nationwide shortage of 47s around that time. One consequence was pairs of Type 2s (mainly Class 26s) continuing to work the heavier trains over the Highland Line until the late ‘70s.

Late delivery of Cl 50s? I can't remember that. I think some went across in 1973s, when the Weaver Jct-Preston went live, and the rest followed in 1974. By the time i saw this Western (which was definitely Spring-Summer 1975) all the Class 50s had long been transferred.

Of course, there may have been availability problems - but that's a different matter.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, everybody wanted 47s for passenger trains but there weren't enough to go round - hence things like the use of top-and-tail 26s on the Glasgow-Edinburgh trains, and fitting ETH to a small batch of 45s for the MML trains. .... ...

Well, it was It was 50 Class 45s, hardly a "small" batch. And these were converted starting in 1970.

Are you saying the various operators actually asked for what became Cl 47/4s already in 1970-71?

Maybe you are correct, but ISTR it was just a case of What can we use?

If they hadn't ETH fitted the Cl 45s, too many would simply have been surplus to requirements, and withdrawn after a life-span of just 12-14 years. Similar with the Cl 27s - they were just surplus locos, so why not retrofit them to do a more modern job? All these locos were just 11-12-13 years old when fitte up for ETH. They may not have been ideal, but you couldn't scrap them when they had another dozen years or more life by fitting ETH. (OK, the Cl 27s didn't last that long.)

 

[MichaelAMW]

Incidentally, PSUL shows both Saturday trains using the slightly longer Greenford loop (ie. Greenford LTE Bay Jn - Greenford W Jn) instead of the direct line.

They did that because Park Royal signal box was closed at the weekend. When Old Oak Common panel was extended to take over that bit of the Wycombe line the train ran direct on Saturdays too.

 

[MichaelAMW]

72-73 shows a halfway stage with 08xx 12xx 17xx via the joint line and the gaps filled by Paddington-Banbury workings which I presume were DMU. That detail had completely passed me by - but I was in Oxford then and more focused on services there.

The 2040 Up I referred to earlier wasn't running so far back, but is definitely in the 1975 GBTT.

Yes, the Birmingham workings were transferred over a couple of years but the Paddington trains via Bicester were retained until they all went (apart from the one remaining service) in 1973. Those early-70s Banbury trains, apart I think from a peak service, were generally Swindon "Inter City" DMUs. It strikes me that Marylebone must have been generously supplied with the class 115 DMUs prior to that as they managed to find enough available units to run a full rush-hour service to and from Banbury from May 1973 onwards.

 

[SouthDevonian]

As I recall the WCML electrification between Weaver Jn & Glasgow Central was about a year late being delivered. Hence most of the 50s were transferred late to the WR. When they arrived there were numerous problems with flash overs, etc which contributed to their poor availability. Yet another example of a first generation loco class that had a limited time on top link duties.

Apart form Classes 45 / 46 / 47 / 55, did any other first generation diesel class locos have a lengthy & successful period on top link duties?

 

[yorksrob]

It strikes me that Marylebone must have been generously supplied with the class 115 DMUs prior to that as they managed to find enough available units to run a full rush-hour service to and from Banbury from May 1973 onwards.

Presumably they included the ones that used to make it to Nottingham Victoria once upon a time ?

 

[Cowley]

As I recall the WCML electrification between Weaver Jn & Glasgow Central was about a year late being delivered. Hence most of the 50s were transferred late to the WR. When they arrived there were numerous problems with flash overs, etc which contributed to their poor availability. Yet another example of a first generation loco class that had a limited time on top link duties.

Apart form Classes 45 / 46 / 47 / 55, did any other first generation diesel class locos have a lengthy & successful period on top link duties?

I'd say that top link duties changed really, with the introduction of electric services in some cases and the introduction of the High Speed Train in others.
Quite a few first generation designs continued doing for decades what they were designed for though, like classes 20,37 and although downrated the 47s.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Presumably they included the ones that used to make it to Nottingham Victoria once upon a time ?

Yes, but I thought there were only a very few of those. maybe only one return trip a day. I have, however, remembered that some sets were initially allocated to Allerton, where they formed the fast services between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington. Perhaps their later transfer to Marylebone was to meet the demand of the new Banbury trains. However, that's just a guess as I don't know the date that happened.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes, but I thought there were only a very few of those. maybe only one return trip a day....

Yes. IIRC, there was only one DMU turn, 08.48 Marylebone-Nottingham and 12.48 ex Notts return. This mean the unit was effectively used for the morning peak into London and ready to come out again in the evening peak.

the other two turns were loco hauled.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, but I thought there were only a very few of those. maybe only one return trip a day. I have, however, remembered that some sets were initially allocated to Allerton, where they formed the fast services between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington. Perhaps their later transfer to Marylebone was to meet the demand of the new Banbury trains. However, that's just a guess as I don't know the date that happened.

I don't know. I'm sure I saw a picture of one near Catesby tunnel once, however, according to "The Last Years of the Great Central Main Line" by Robert Robertham, it suggests that the remaining semi-fasts were kettle hauled to the end, so I may have been mistaken.