Chiltern MK3 replacement fleet possibilities?

[The Planner]

Well it could be that the 7 class 221 units transfer from AWC to XC, could replace the 7 2-car class 170/1 units or 7 of the 170/6 units. Those class 170 units, could then transfer to Chiltern.

Regurgitate they don't work at Stansted etc. Longer dwells than a 170 as well, so arguably knacker the timetable.

 

[RobShipway]

Why would Class 221 units be used to replace 170s when extra capacity is desperately needed on routes operated by Class 220s which see regular shortforms and/or overcrowding? These routes seem the most likely destination for Class 221s.

Well the other alternative is that is for some of the class 222 units from EMR, to go to XC and replace all but the class 170 units required for Stansted Airport - Birmingham and Leicester - Birmingham services.

Regurgitate they don't work at Stansted etc. Longer dwells than a 170 as well, so arguably knacker the timetable.

It maybe me, but I can see some class 196 or 197 units being transferred to XC.

 

[The Planner]

It maybe me, but I can see some class 196 or 197 units being transferred to XC.

Id be off to Specsavers.

Well the other alternative is that is for some of the class 222 units from EMR, to go to XC and replace all but the class 170 units required for Stansted Airport - Birmingham and Leicester - Birmingham services.

Makes the timetable worse as previously noted.

 

[12LDA28C]

Well the other alternative is that is for some of the class 222 units from EMR, to go to XC and replace all but the class 170 units required for Stansted Airport - Birmingham and Leicester - Birmingham services.

It maybe me, but I can see some class 196 or 197 units being transferred to XC.

This is pie-in-the-sky speculation which has little bearing on the subject of this thread.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Well the other alternative is that is for some of the class 222 units from EMR, to go to XC and replace all but the class 170 units required for Stansted Airport - Birmingham and Leicester - Birmingham services.

It maybe me, but I can see some class 196 or 197 units being transferred to XC.

The Stansted route 170s interwork with the Cardiff-Birmingham-Nottingham services. A little time spent on RTT would show how unworkable that would be, as well as many other reasons. XC have to run into the bay platform at Stansted which limits unit lengths. The XC operation is really quite tightly strung.

The better plan would five years ago have been for Northern to have had more 195s and some or all of their ex Scotrail 170s moved straight to EMR.

 

[sjpowermac]

This is pie-in-the-sky speculation which has little bearing on the subject of this thread.

Please bear in mind that some will come up with the most bizarre solutions to show that the Class 68/Mk5A sets are the worst option.

To be fair to the various posters, TPE/DOHL/railway press have already done a pretty good job in the bizarre stakes

 

[fgwrich]

Class 68 silencer Mods.

Starting to wonder whether they exist even on a cad system.

Has anyone seen anywhere were a class 68 has been running about of idling with any kind of mod. You would think a Chiltern one would have sprouted a trial version by now.

Unless you work for Beacon Rail who you know, as the locos owners might have a little more understanding of their locos than a public forum?

Well it could be that the 7 class 221 units transfer from AWC to XC, could replace the 7 2-car class 170/1 units or 7 of the 170/6 units. Those class 170 units, could then transfer to Chiltern.

Well the other alternative is that is for some of the class 222 units from EMR, to go to XC and replace all but the class 170 units required for Stansted Airport - Birmingham and Leicester - Birmingham services.

It maybe me, but I can see some class 196 or 197 units being transferred to XC.

Never going to happen.

Regurgitate they don't work at Stansted etc. Longer dwells than a 170 as well, so arguably knacker the timetable.

Exactly as The Planner states, longer dwell times, I believe they won't be able to run at the SP Differentials the 170s work, they're interlinked with other XC Services, they're more costly to operate, they offer lower capacity than a 170 and with the DfT holding the purse strings, it's a total no-go-er. 222's unlikely to head to XC either, and if they did they'd be on the main Cross Country network where such a unit is needed. Not sure why West Mids or TfW would want to give up any of their new units to another operator either. Sorry to be a downer, but the most logical solution here really is the 68s to Chiltern, 175s to someone like Great Western, and XC picks up the rest of the Voyagers post AWC. The DfT may work in ways only really known to themselves (or a select few), but they aren't going to shuffle fleets around the country like a deck of cards on a table.

 

[warwickshire]

Does anyone kindly know if the mk5 are actually cleared to run on the route Stourbridge Junction to London Marylebone at all?
Please.

 

[RobShipway]

Unless you work for Beacon Rail who you know, as the locos owners might have a little more understanding of their locos than a public forum?





Never going to happen.



Exactly as The Planner states, longer dwell times, I believe they won't be able to run at the SP Differentials the 170s work, they're interlinked with other XC Services, they're more costly to operate, they offer lower capacity than a 170 and with the DfT holding the purse strings, it's a total no-go-er. 222's unlikely to head to XC either, and if they did they'd be on the main Cross Country network where such a unit is needed. Not sure why West Mids or TfW would want to give up any of their new units to another operator either. Sorry to be a downer, but the most logical solution here really is the 68s to Chiltern, 175s to someone like Great Western, and XC picks up the rest of the Voyagers post AWC. The DfT may work in ways only really known to themselves (or a select few), but they aren't going to shuffle fleets around the country like a deck of cards on a table.

Time will tell, but the DFT have been known in the past to do weird things when it comes to what trains TOC's can be using on their services. Common sense will tell you that all the class 221 units from AWC should go to XC, yet two have gone to Grand Central, where I would have thought that GC would have been using the two stored class 180 units to save having to re-train their drivers on class 221 units. So to say that things are never going to happen, is being pretty unrealistic to be honest. No one would have expected that GC would hire two class 221 units and would have said that it would take all the class 180 units leaving EMR, but they didn't.

 

[The Ham]

Assuming that the loco takes up platform would the fact that you could run 6 coach 222's mean that you could match the capacity of the existing stock?

Whist that would mean you could only have 11 units (66 coaches as 12 units would be 72 coaches) and the timetable may need to slip by (say) 4 months to get the delivery to work, there maybe other factors which mean that they win (especially if the alternative is no award as the locos would be too loud and the 175's too unreliable).

As to their fuel usage, if they are going to be limited to 100mph you could program the software to use fewer of the engines at any given time (like the 185's do), especially if they only need to keep to loco timings.

That's not too say that it's likely, just that it could be a bit more likely than "not going to happen"

 

[43096]

Time will tell, but the DFT have been known in the past to do weird things when it comes to what trains TOC's can be using on their services. Common sense will tell you that all the class 221 units from AWC should go to XC, yet two have gone to Grand Central, where I would have thought that GC would have been using the two stored class 180 units to save having to re-train their drivers on class 221 units. So to say that things are never going to happen, is being pretty unrealistic to be honest. No one would have expected that GC would hire two class 221 units and would have said that it would take all the class 180 units leaving EMR, but they didn't.

DfT have no say on what trains Grand Central use and if no one else has come in for them, the owners are free to lease them to GC.

 

[D365]

No one would have expected that GC would hire two class 221 units and would have said that it would take all the class 180 units leaving EMR, but they didn't.

Why was it unexpected/unrealistic? As per 43096’s reply, it would have been apparent to Beacon Rail that CrossCountry can’t commit to leasing all of the AWC Class 221s. And Class 22x units have previously operated into Kings Cross - so it’s nothing earth-shattering.

 

[RobShipway]

DfT have no say on what trains Grand Central use and if no one else has come in for them, the owners are free to lease them to GC.

Why was it unexpected/unrealistic? As per 43096’s reply, it would have been apparent to Beacon Rail that CrossCountry can’t commit to leasing all of the AWC Class 221s. And Class 22x units have previously operated into Kings Cross - so it’s nothing earth-shattering.

Agreed to both comments, but those above where talking about common sense, which to me would say that Grand Central would just hire class 180 units without the need to b re - training drivers and you would not think of them hiring class 221 Voyager units.

So whose to say that what people expect to replace the loco hauled stock at Chiltern Railways, will be loco hauled stock. I don't expect it to be class 175 units either, so what does that leave that is or could be available to Chiltern to replace the loco hauled stock?

 

[172007]

Does anyone kindly know if the mk5 are actually cleared to run on the route Stourbridge Junction to London Marylebone at all?
Please.

No they won't be as their is no reason for them to be at the moment.

Some Mk5a's were delivered via Solihull so Anyho to Tyseley is fine unless items such as steps were removed.

Chiltern operate Class 165's which I believe are the most gauge restricted multiple unit with regard to dynamic envelope / size so I immagine the Mk5a's would be fine.

 

[12LDA28C]

So whose to say that what people expect to replace the loco hauled stock at Chiltern Railways, will be loco hauled stock. I don't expect it to be class 175 units either, so what does that leave that is or could be available to Chiltern to replace the loco hauled stock?

It's been widely rumoured as well as reported in railway press that Chiltern could be interested in taking some or all of the ex-TPE Mk5s and the fact that the recent tender issued specifically refers to LHCS would appear to confirm those reports. So it seems the only one who doesn't expect this to be a distinct possibility is you.

 

[RobShipway]

It's been widely rumoured as well as reported in railway press that Chiltern could be interested in taking some or all of the ex-TPE Mk5s and the fact that the recent tender issued specifically refers to LHCS would appear to confirm those reports. So it seems the only one who doesn't expect this to be a distinct possibility is you.

Just because it has been reported in the press that Chiltern are interested in the MK5A coaches and LHCS is mentioned in the tender, does not mean that Chiltern will go with an LHCS fleet to replace it's existing fleet.

Chiltern Railways does have at least two other tenders for fleet replacement that could end up replacing the MK3 LHCS fleet, such that there would be no need for them to be paying out the money for the 12 years that the tender quoted with LHCS fleet is going to last and just be replacing the current MK3 LHCS fleet with a fleet of trains that they could be using for the next 30 - 40 years.

 

[12LDA28C]

Just because it has been reported in the press that Chiltern are interested in the MK5A coaches and LHCS is mentioned in the tender, does not mean that Chiltern will go with an LHCS fleet to replace it's existing fleet.

Chiltern Railways does have at least two other tenders for fleet replacement that could end up replacing the MK3 LHCS fleet, such that there would be no need for them to be paying out the money for the 12 years that the tender quoted with LHCS fleet is going to last and just be replacing the current MK3 LHCS fleet with a fleet of trains that they could be using for the next 30 - 40 years.

The tenders that have already gone out in Summer last year were for the replacement of the 165 fleet, not the 68s & Mk3s. This latest tender specifies training to commence this year and trains in service early next year, which will certainly not be achieved by the previous tenders issued. The Mk3s are getting old and parts are becoming scarce, that's why a replacement is sought asap.

 

[43096]

The tenders that have already gone out in Summer last year were for the replacement of the 165 fleet, not the 68s & Mk3s. This latest tender specifies training to commence this year and trains in service early next year, which will certainly not be achieved by the previous tenders issued. The Mk3s are getting old and parts are becoming scarce, that's why a replacement is sought asap.

Add in that it gives the opportunity to cascade Turbostars elsewhere (XC/Northern/wherever) and in a General Election year to avoid embarrassing questions about why new trains are sat doing nothing.

 

[12LDA28C]

Add in that it gives the opportunity to cascade Turbostars elsewhere (XC/Northern/wherever) and in a General Election year to avoid embarrassing questions about why new trains are sat doing nothing.

Possibly, if the option to take all the ex-TPE sets was taken up although that might result in some 168s taking over 165 diagrams and the worst examples of the ageing 165 fleet being removed from service.

 

[43096]

Possibly, if the option to take all the ex-TPE sets was taken up although that might result in some 168s taking over 165 diagrams and the worst examples of the ageing 165 fleet being removed from service.

There's many options if Chiltern take all the Mark 5s! 165s to GWR is another one.

 

[fgwrich]

Possibly, if the option to take all the ex-TPE sets was taken up although that might result in some 168s taking over 165 diagrams and the worst examples of the ageing 165 fleet being removed from service.

Theoretically, if both Chiltern takes all of the Mk5 sets and does this, and Great Western picks up the 175s, then both operators could form a pool of spare parts from the worst (cannibalised) Turbo's in both fleets. That would keep them hanging on for a little longer at least - presumably Chiltern will be starting with the former HyDrive unit unless it's possible to restore it back to its former Perkins / Voith combination.

 

[sjpowermac]

Possibly, if the option to take all the ex-TPE sets was taken up although that might result in some 168s taking over 165 diagrams and the worst examples of the ageing 165 fleet being removed from service.

Please forgive the very basic question (I’m not particularly familiar with Chiltern’s operations), but how many diagrams per day does it take to cover the Marylebone-Birmingham service (Class 68/Mk3 plus the Class 168s)? Many thanks in advance.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Please forgive the very basic question (I’m not particularly familiar with Chiltern’s operations), but how many diagrams per day does it take to cover the Marylebone-Birmingham service (Class 68/Mk3 plus the Class 168s)? Many thanks in advance.

Current diagrams see some interworking taking place between routes, so they'd need to be rejigged to eliminate those if moving the entire Birmingham operation over to LHCS.

By my reckoning, that would work out at around 15 diagrams to cover the entire day.

 

[12LDA28C]

Please forgive the very basic question (I’m not particularly familiar with Chiltern’s operations), but how many diagrams per day does it take to cover the Marylebone-Birmingham service (Class 68/Mk3 plus the Class 168s)? Many thanks in advance.

Diagrams are not confined to London - Birmingham and also there is at least one Class 165 diagram from Marylebone to Birmingham, so it's not really as straightforward as that. Units often get cycled through Aylesbury for heavier maintenance which can't be done at Wembley, as one example.

If MYB - BMO / SBJ was to go over totally to LHCS many stock diagrams would need to be totally recast.

Theoretically, if both Chiltern takes all of the Mk5 sets and does this, and Great Western picks up the 175s, then both operators could form a pool of spare parts from the worst (cannibalised) Turbo's in both fleets. That would keep them hanging on for a little longer at least - presumably Chiltern will be starting with the former HyDrive unit unless it's possible to restore it back to its former Perkins / Voith combination.

If you're referring to 165004 I believe that is already in the process of being reconfigured back to its previous diesel-only operation.

 

[TheBigD]

... And EMR already don't have enough 170s to operate the wholly Turbostar Regional operation they wanted.

EMR have/will have more 170 vehicles than originally planned...
Originally 11x3car and 33x2car, 99 vehicles in total.
Now* 17x3car and 27x2car, 105 vehicles.
Same number of units, but 6 more 3 cars and 6 less 2 cars.

In addition they have kept 26x158 for Liverpool-Norwich**, which requires 19x158.

* Still a couple to transfer from TfW and Southern
** 170s now have booked work on the Liverpool-Norwich route vice 158s.

 

[D365]

EMR have/will have more 170 vehicles than originally planned...
Originally 11x3car and 33x2car, 99 vehicles in total.
Now* 17x3car and 27x2car, 105 vehicles.
Same number of units, but 6 more 3 cars and 6 less 2 cars.

In addition they have kept 26x158 for Liverpool-Norwich**, which requires 19x158.

* Still a couple to transfer from TfW and Southern
** 170s now have booked work on the Liverpool-Norwich route vice 158s.

is Southern still expecting to lose units?

 

[fgwrich]

is Southern still expecting to lose units?

Isnt there one more 171/4 left to transfer over?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

EMR have/will have more 170 vehicles than originally planned...
Originally 11x3car and 33x2car, 99 vehicles in total.
Now* 17x3car and 27x2car, 105 vehicles.
Same number of units, but 6 more 3 cars and 6 less 2 cars.

In addition they have kept 26x158 for Liverpool-Norwich**, which requires 19x158.

* Still a couple to transfer from TfW and Southern
** 170s now have booked work on the Liverpool-Norwich route vice 158s.

I know, that’s why I said wholly 170 fleet. They didn’t want to keep their 158s, they had to due to suddenly being told they’re keeping Liverpool

 

[sjpowermac]

@CyrusWuff , @12LDA28C thank you both for the information, most appreciated.

 

[Doomotron]

Isnt there one more 171/4 left to transfer over?

Yes, one more ex-ScotRail unit to go. The plans for a dozen (?) 171s to leave were changed a while back, instead it is TFW 170s transferring, themselves replaced in part by the unused Grand Central Mark 4s.