Chiltern Railways refuse to serve Wembley Stadium when Euston - Birmingham is closed.

[Bletchleyite]

Do you mean that Wembley Stadium station is not fit for the purpose?

I'd say it's not, to be honest. I'd probably say to be honest that Chiltern's service is not fit for the purpose of moving large numbers of people to/from Wembley. Clearly it likes the money from doing so so it makes it work most of the time with queueing systems, but really it'd be better if everyone dispersed a lot better by taking the Met to London then arriving at Marylebone in a more dribs-and-drabs manner.

Wasn't it built to specifically cater for event demands?

It was built to cater for football matches at the old, much smaller stadium. In reality this would only mean high demand when Wycombe Wanderers were playing, as for other football matches most people wouldn't be coming from the Chiltern line direction and would arrive via the Met from London having got there from wherever they were coming from, or on dedicated supporter coaches.

It hasn't really been expanded substantially since the old stadium was replaced with the much larger new one and the surrounding developments. It has been done up a bit but the changes aren't huge. But the main issue is that the Chiltern line is a secondary route which doesn't have anywhere near the capacity (frequency or train length) of other London termini. It also doesn't have any units with SDO and is driver-only operated so other workarounds aren't possible, so if a train is too long for a station it simply cannot call.

Does TfL have well-practiced arrangements for shifting crowds in the country direction?

It doesn't need to. Aside from people going to Amersham etc, it shifts them into London and they disperse to their relevant London termini and arrive there in more of dribs and drabs because they stop for a drink or a kebab or whatever.

I mean that 0 from Wembley can travel towards the country direction. Of course the Chiltern trains will be full of London - Birmingham passengers, but how about Wembley - Birmingham (or anywhere on the Chiltern lines) passengers? Under normal circumstances, some can travel Wembley to Oxford, but on that day, 0 will be able to travel from Wembley to Oxford.

There is also an alternative route from London to Birmingham, which is via Paddington and Reading, taking similar time as Chiltern's direct trains. Do you think this route will also be overcrowded that it can't take more displaced Euston - Birmingham passengers? Instead, Chiltern is offering no viable alternative route from Wembley Stadium to the country here.

They are. You take the Met into London (which unlike Chiltern operates long, standee trains at a high frequency so can cope with the loadings) then disperse to relevant London termini (not Euston in this case, but as you say Marylebone or Paddington) or coaches or whatever.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Do you mean that Wembley Stadium station is not fit for the purpose? Wasn't it built to specifically cater for event demands?


Does TfL have well-practiced arrangements for shifting crowds in the country direction?


The demands will of course be different, but the nature is still the same, just the numbers are different.

As much as they need to carry the expected crowd, using the official coach parking in collaboration with the stadium. Chiltern has also dropped station calls at smaller stations where long trains can't call, but they don't leave passengers deserted because there are replacement buses.


Why don't you think it won't be possible? Are there measures which prevent a 100000-person event from happening at Wembley when the Jubilee / Metropolitan lines are closed?


I mean that 0 from Wembley can travel towards the country direction. Of course the Chiltern trains will be full of London - Birmingham passengers, but how about Wembley - Birmingham (or anywhere on the Chiltern lines) passengers? Under normal circumstances, some can travel Wembley to Oxford, but on that day, 0 will be able to travel from Wembley to Oxford.

There is also an alternative route from London to Birmingham, which is via Paddington and Reading, taking similar time as Chiltern's direct trains. Do you think this route will also be overcrowded that it can't take more displaced Euston - Birmingham passengers? Instead, Chiltern is offering no viable alternative route from Wembley Stadium to the country here.

The "numbers being different" is a massive crucial factor. To shift 9000 people would require 200 coaches. Where are these coming from? You'd also need at least 200 drivers, again where are these coming from? Particularly in an industry already short of drivers.
There are plans to get people to and from Wembley. It involves going via Marylebone, just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's not a plan.

 

[miklcct]

I'd say it's not, to be honest. I'd probably say to be honest that Chiltern's service is not fit for the purpose of moving large numbers of people to/from Wembley. Clearly it likes the money from doing so so it makes it work most of the time with queueing systems, but really it'd be better if everyone dispersed a lot better by taking the Met to London then arriving at Marylebone in a more dribs-and-drabs manner.



It was built to cater for football matches at the old, much smaller stadium. In reality this would only mean high demand when Wycombe Wanderers were playing, as for other football matches most people wouldn't be coming from the Chiltern line direction and would arrive via the Met from London having got there from wherever they were coming from, or on dedicated supporter coaches.

It hasn't really been expanded substantially since the old stadium was replaced with the much larger new one and the surrounding developments. It has been done up a bit but the changes aren't huge. But the main issue is that the Chiltern line is a secondary route which doesn't have anywhere near the capacity (frequency or train length) of other London termini. It also doesn't have any units with SDO and is driver-only operated so other workarounds aren't possible, so if a train is too long for a station it simply cannot call.



It doesn't need to. Aside from people going to Amersham etc, it shifts them into London and they disperse to their relevant London termini and arrive there in more of dribs and drabs because they stop for a drink or a kebab or whatever.





They are. You take the Met into London (which unlike Chiltern operates long, standee trains at a high frequency so can cope with the loadings) then disperse to relevant London termini (not Euston in this case, but as you say Marylebone or Paddington) or coaches or whatever.

Thanks for your explanation. So basically the event plan is just to force everyone to travel via Central London (apart from those going to Amersham), am I right? Does TfL have measures to ensure that no engineering works can happen on the Metropolitan / Jubilee lines when such large events take place?

 

[The exile]

I note that there is still an hourly service from Northolt Park which would enable a change at High Wycombe or somewhere if you don’t want to go via Marylebone. Not ideal - but still better than a lot of the country has to cope with on a daily basis - and these are exceptional circumstances.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presumably Wembley Stadium railway station is not being rail-served on Sunday 23rd June 2024 either, but it is operational on Friday 21st June 2024? (Believe there's extra Taylor Swift concerts on both these dates as well.)

 

[Royston Vasey]

For context, the OP posted this query on Reddit yesterday that he is originating at Willesden, is participating in a race at Birmingham University that runs until 19:30 on the Saturday, and needs to be in Brighton for another race the next morning.

https://www.reddit.com/r/uktravel/comments/1dcnbzl/need_help_to_travel_from_willesden_to_birmingham/

nivlark
•
20h ago
Go from Wembley Central instead.

miklcct
OP
•
20h ago
•
Edited 20h ago
Rugby to Birmingham International is bustituted. Will it be better than travelling to Northolt Park?

P.S. I won't be able to reach home before the service stops if I stick to the LNR route after my race. If I depart Birmingham New Street at 20:24 I will eventually get to Harrow & Wealdstone at 01:00.

nivlark
•
19h ago
The NR journey planner sends you via Nuneaton avoiding the engineering work. This appears to be about half an hour faster than going from Northolt Park, which involves either doubling back to Marylebone or a long wait for a connection at High Wycombe.


miklcct
OP
•
19h ago
After a few round-trips to the Chiltern customer service, it seems that the company is expecting we to travel via Amersham. I will check options using that route as it is an easy and cheap tube journey from Willesden to Amersham.



miklcct
OP
•
19h ago
It involves Avanti West Coast and CrossCountry so the journey will be extremely expensive. My railcard isn't valid on these train companies and I intend to use Chiltern or LNR on their own cheap Super Off-Peak Return tickets where my railcard discount is valid. (I have an Annual Gold Card)

I am considering the coach but the frequency isn't great. The one before 20:30 is at 18:50, which would likely mean a long wait at the coach station if I end up there early.

nivlark
•
19h ago
With this many self-imposed restrictions I think having limited choice will be par for the course. There's plenty of places to kill time in Birmingham if you need to.


OP
•
19h ago
I want to travel home as soon as possible after the race since I will have another race in Brighton morning next day.

He also wants to use Chiltern or LNR only to use Gold Card discount on their Super Off Peak Returns.

Other routes were advised including via Nuneaton or via Northolt Park, as well as coaches, which he rejected because of the above, and it was pointed out that so many self-imposed restrictions will inevitably leave limited choice.

To me the most obvious option is Willesden Junction to Marylebone on a direct Bakerloo train, from which a direct Birmingham train boarded at the origin. Get there in time for the train being announced and walk far enough down the train from the gateline and you'll almost certainly get a seat; it's a fairly low stress option. You might even benefit from advance fares that wouldn't be available from Wembley if you were happy to be tied to the train.

Chiltern have made an entirely sensible and realistic decision here, and anyone with a dose of pragmatism has a number of options to get where they need to be. It's almost as if Wembley Stadium was chosen deliberately to prove a point, and a great deal of time has already been invested in complaining about it.

 

[Haywain]

Are there measures which prevent a 100000-person event from happening at Wembley when the Jubilee / Metropolitan lines are closed?

The police and local authorities will have a say in when events can take place.

 

[DarloRich]

Does TfL have well-practiced arrangements for shifting crowds in the country direction?

no. It does not need to. It has very well worked plans for moving vast number of people between Wembley and Central London where connections are better.

Have you ever been to a big concert or big match at Wembley? Do you have any experience of how things work at those times?

 

[Djgr]

Do you mean that Wembley Stadium station is not fit for the purpose?

Well it's hardly in the centre of the country or the centre of London. Ditto Heathrow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

no. It does not need to. It has very well worked plans for moving vast number of people between Wembley and Central London where connections are better.

Not only that but if you move people to central London they tend to disperse - some for a meal, some to the pub, some straight to various stations via various routes. That makes things a lot easier.

Thus the transport plan for Wembley for large events really does need to centre around doing that.

 

[DarloRich]

Not only that but if you move people to central London they tend to disperse - some for a meal, some to the pub, some straight to various stations via various routes. That makes things a lot easier.

drinking round Wembley pre/post match is no fun!

That is why i asked if the OP had attended a big event there and seen how it works - it works well most of the time

 

[Haywain]

drinking round Wembley pre/post match is no fun!

Haven't tried doing that for a very long time - I prefer to do that a bit further out.

Of course, one point is that dispersal from football is often helped by the fact that half the crowd want to spend time in the stadium celebrating while the other half can't get away quick enough!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

They don't really help Wembley - Country traffic, although some convoluted routes may still be possible such as Amersham - Beaconsfield replacement bus or taking Avanti from Watford Junction and using another route to Birmingham to avoid the replacement bus.

Why can’t you simply get the Bakerloo line from Wembley to Marylebone and then go upstairs and get the train from Marylebone to Birmingham?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why can’t you simply get the Bakerloo line from Wembley to Marylebone and then go upstairs and get the train from Marylebone to Birmingham?

Wembley Central is a bit of a walk and is grim. I'd recommend the Met to Baker St.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Wembley Central is a bit of a walk and is grim. I'd recommend the Met to Baker St.

As above, OP has stated elsewhere that he's originating at Willesden anyway. Its even easier to get to MYB

 

[30907]

Two

Why can’t you simply get the Bakerloo line from Wembley to Marylebone and then go upstairs and get the train from Marylebone to Birmingham?

The OP is known for his dislike of doubling-back

Depending on his actual starting point a bus to (near) MYB might be efficient and economical.

 

[miklcct]

Two

The OP is known for his dislike of doubling-back

Depending on his actual starting point a bus to (near) MYB might be efficient and economical.

The best method of transport for me to go to MYB is on Jubilee line to Baker Street.

After a few days of going forth and back with the Customer Service, and the replies from this thread, it seems unfortunately that the only reasonable choices left for me on that day are:

• Have a lengthy double-back through Baker Street
• Take a coach from Finchley Road

These two options are likely to be similar in terms of price and time, and I will investigate which will be less undesirable for me.

 

[miklcct]

For context, the OP posted this query on Reddit yesterday that he is originating at Willesden, is participating in a race at Birmingham University that runs until 19:30 on the Saturday, and needs to be in Brighton for another race the next morning.

https://www.reddit.com/r/uktravel/comments/1dcnbzl/need_help_to_travel_from_willesden_to_birmingham/



He also wants to use Chiltern or LNR only to use Gold Card discount on their Super Off Peak Returns.

Other routes were advised including via Nuneaton or via Northolt Park, as well as coaches, which he rejected because of the above, and it was pointed out that so many self-imposed restrictions will inevitably leave limited choice.

To me the most obvious option is Willesden Junction to Marylebone on a direct Bakerloo train, from which a direct Birmingham train boarded at the origin. Get there in time for the train being announced and walk far enough down the train from the gateline and you'll almost certainly get a seat; it's a fairly low stress option. You might even benefit from advance fares that wouldn't be available from Wembley if you were happy to be tied to the train.

Chiltern have made an entirely sensible and realistic decision here, and anyone with a dose of pragmatism has a number of options to get where they need to be. It's almost as if Wembley Stadium was chosen deliberately to prove a point, and a great deal of time has already been invested in complaining about it.

I don't want to consider Advance fare as I plan to return as soon as I finish the race, and for coaches, I am looking to see if the timetable gives me enough flexibility on a flexible fare but unfortunately the timetable isn't that great. If it offers a half-hourly service then I will undoubtedly use the coach in this circumstance.

Coaches when operated well can be a competitive alternative when trains don't offer a good service, for example, between London and Bournemouth when the main railway line is closed, as there are frequent coaches along the route between the same coach stations.

Furthermore, boarding a train from a terminus is a higher-stress option for me than boarding a train from an intermediate station, because trains don't depart from a fixed platform from a terminus that, at an unfamiliar station, it may be difficult for me to find the train, and occasionally I may guess wrongly which train will depart first (it happens at Canary Wharf DLR when there is a train to Lewisham on both sides of the platform). Euston is the worst in respect for this where fast trains can depart from either side of the station and platform numbers aren't announced well in advance. At an intermediate station, I just need to wait at the correct platform for the direction I want to travel, and look for the indicator on the train for the correct one.

The reason why I choose Wembley Stadium is not to prove a point, but because I always use this station to travel to races on the Chiltern network. Occasionally my return journey from the race back to Wembley coincides when football fans travel to Wembley for a match as well.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Have a lengthy double-back through Baker Street

It’s hardly a lengthy double-back!

 

[The exile]

, I just need to wait at the correct platform for the direction I want to travel, and look for the indicator on the train for the correct one.

Plenty of intermediate stations where this is not the case.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I don't want to consider Advance fare as I plan to return as soon as I finish the race, and for coaches, I am looking to see if the timetable gives me enough flexibility on a flexible fare but unfortunately the timetable isn't that great. If it offers a half-hourly service then I will undoubtedly use the coach in this circumstance.

Coaches when operated well can be a competitive alternative when trains don't offer a good service, for example, between London and Bournemouth when the main railway line is closed, as there are frequent coaches along the route between the same coach stations.

Furthermore, boarding a train from a terminus is a higher-stress option for me than boarding a train from an intermediate station, because trains don't depart from a fixed platform from a terminus that, at an unfamiliar station, it may be difficult for me to find the train, and occasionally I may guess wrongly which train will depart first (it happens at Canary Wharf DLR when there is a train to Lewisham on both sides of the platform). Euston is the worst in respect for this where fast trains can depart from either side of the station and platform numbers aren't announced well in advance. At an intermediate station, I just need to wait at the correct platform for the direction I want to travel, and look for the indicator on the train for the correct one.

The reason why I choose Wembley Stadium is not to prove a point, but because I always use this station to travel to races on the Chiltern network. Occasionally my return journey from the race back to Wembley coincides when football fans travel to Wembley for a match as well.

Then surely if they did call on that day the train would be overwhelmed by Wembley Stadium and you probably wouldn't even get on it? We know you're a meticulous planner, even to the minute, and the jeopardy of being unable to board would certainly make me take the more robust option that you know you'll make your train, even for a very short detour into Zone 1. Marylebone is such a compact terminus there's little that can go wrong in terms of finding your platform.

It goes to show the railway can't please everybody's exact requirements and foibles.

 

[BrianW]

It was built to cater for football matches at the old, much smaller stadium. In reality this would only mean high demand when Wycombe Wanderers were playing, as for other football matches most people wouldn't be coming from the Chiltern line direction and would arrive via the Met from London having got there from wherever they were coming from, or on dedicated supporter coaches.

It hasn't really been expanded substantially since the old stadium was replaced with the much larger new one and the surrounding developments. It has been done up a bit but the changes aren't huge. But the main issue is that the Chiltern line is a secondary route which doesn't have anywhere near the capacity (frequency or train length) of other London termini. It also doesn't have any units with SDO and is driver-only operated so other workarounds aren't possible, so if a train is too long for a station it simply cannot call.

The original 1923-built Empire Stadium was much the same capacity, and all-standing (except the Royal Box?). The police eventually found ways of crowd control following the 'White Horse Final'!

The last paragraph of the 'wiki' site for Wembley Stadium states:

'During busier periods (usually due to an event at the stadium) a seven carriage shuttle operates between Marylebone and Wembley Stadium using the turnback siding just west of the station to enable trains to quickly turn around to go back to London. There is an enhanced northbound service too, with trains travelling to Banbury, Birmingham and beyond making additional calls at the station.' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wembley_Stadium_railway_station]

The station now known as Wembley Stadium station was opened as Wembley Hill station in 1905, well before the Stadium or the British Empire Exhibition. IIRC it has only ever had two platforms. On the other hand the grim Wembley Central, on the WCML and DC and Bakerloo Lines, has six platforms, though some are short. Wembley Park Station also has six platforms, served by the Met and Jublilee lines and was massively rebuilt around 2000, again IIRC. Wembley is well-served by its stations, even after the closure of the original Wembley Stadium station in 1948 following the Everton vs West Brom FA Cup Final. That station was served by a Marylebone-facing loop.

Living in North West London in the 1960s I remember spotting many a 'Football Special' before hooligans saw an end to that traffic. I wish Swifties a good and memorable time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The original 1923-built Empire Stadium was much the same capacity, and all-standing (except the Royal Box?). The police eventually found ways of crowd control following the 'White Horse Final'!

The Football Association also helped by making subsequent FA Cup finals "all ticket" only, with no more 'on the day' cash admissions, which was a key issue in 1923 (as well as all those who just climbed the barriers).

 

[Magdalia]

I have been to "sell out" events at Wembley, also at the London Olympic Stadium and various other 80-100k capacity stadia around the world.

For the Taylor Swift concerts my advice is simple. Unless you have a concert ticket don't go within a country mile of Wembley stadium on the days of the concerts.

In and around such large events each person is literally one of a crowd and can only go where the crowd goes. Trying to go against the tide isn't just foolish, it is dangerous.

 

[BrianW]

I have been to "sell out" events at Wembley, also at the London Olympic Stadium and various other 80-100k capacity stadia around the world.

For the Taylor Swift concerts my advice is simple. Unless you have a concert ticket don't go within a country mile of Wembley stadium on the days of the concerts.

In and around such large events each person is literally one of a crowd and can only go where the crowd goes. Trying to go against the tide isn't just foolish, it is dangerous.

Indeed. As a kid I recall being carried along frighteningly with the crowd, off my feet, between Fulham Broadway tube and Chelsea's Stamford Bridge with my dad and uncle somewhere nearby !! Wembley, even with bigger crowds, always seemed calmer, better organised.

I also saw a wonderful show (NME?) at the Empire pool years ago with the Beatles, Stones, Hollies, Searchers, Swinging Blue Jeans, ...IIRC! Maybe some 'false memory syndrome' there- and no memory of crowds out of control (other than girls screaming!). Somewhat off-topic maybe, but recollections of Ibrox and Hillsborough are important reminders of what's at the centre of considerations of decision-makers.

 

[greenline712]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

And just another point .... on a Sunday evening there will be almost no chance of sourcing 200+ coaches .... coach operators will need a full runout on Monday morning for schools requirements.
Rail replacement services always struggle on Sunday evenings to run a full timetable anyway.

 

[SynthD]

The reason why I choose Wembley Stadium is not to prove a point, but because I always use this station to travel to races on the Chiltern network.

Are you flexible on the day you go? You can stick to your routine better if you travel earlier.

'During busier periods (usually due to an event at the stadium) a seven carriage shuttle operates between Marylebone and Wembley Stadium using the turnback siding just west of the station to enable trains to quickly turn around to go back to London.

Have they stopped doing this, before covid?

 

[renegademaster]

The lack of a joined up railway, passing on a problem and not helping out. Sadly far too common these days.

The only viable diversion would just dump all the disruption onto the (Very Congested) GWML passengers instead. A joined up railway wouldn't do much better

 

[miklcct]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

And just another point .... on a Sunday evening there will be almost no chance of sourcing 200+ coaches .... coach operators will need a full runout on Monday morning for schools requirements.
Rail replacement services always struggle on Sunday evenings to run a full timetable anyway.

The needs of the many - 90000 people for an event is definitely many. Why doesn't Chiltern truncate its Birmingham route to run Wembley Stadium - Birmingham Moor Street (while leaving its Oxford and Aylesbury route at Marylebone non-stopping Wembley, such that passengers can change at High Wycombe) instead to discourage displaced passengers from using its service, while leaving the option to change at High Wycombe for those who insist on using Chiltern Railways between London and Birmingham?

 

[Hadders]

Does TfL have measures to ensure that no engineering works can happen on the Metropolitan / Jubilee lines when such large events take place?

A full scale event at Wembley Stadium couldn't take place unless tghe Met/
Jubilee Lines are operating.

Have a lengthy double-back through Baker Street

It really isn't lengthy. In this case the needs of the many outweigh those of the few.

Furthermore, boarding a train from a terminus is a higher-stress option for me than boarding a train from an intermediate station, because trains don't depart from a fixed platform from a terminus that, at an unfamiliar station, it may be difficult for me to find the train, and occasionally I may guess wrongly which train will depart first

Really! Have you never heard of a departure board? There's no need to guess which platform the train is going to depart from.