Chiltern Trains interfered with by passenger

[STEVIEBOY1]

Actually the most common hotel room etc locks are not (contrary to much opinion) wired at all, but have batteries inside. It is extraordinary how often these batteries go flat. There is some stand-alone electronic logic in them that allows people to leave the hotel with the key card, but not be able to get back in the room once a next guest has entered for the first time with their own issued card.

Yes I experienced s that once, they had to give me a different room for that night, then took the whole door off so I could get back into my original room. Bring back proper old keys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I experienced s that once, they had to give me a different room for that night, then took the whole door off so I could get back into my original room.

Never had that.

Bring back proper old keys.

Far more likely that people walk off with them.

How about some sort of card access instead, like a hotel room key system? If lost, or if a member of staff leaves, individual cards can be deactivated remotely. Would work for cab access, but probably not for smaller things like guards panels.

Merseyrail are going to use fobs for dispatch.

 

[Energy]

A 'dumb' NFC key fob should be able to work offline and wouldn't need to be updated regularly as they are difficult to produce copies of - but to be honest I can see your point that a physical key is the only option that can never fail.

A dumb nfc/rfid tag is incredibly easy to clone, you can do it with any android phone in seconds. Rolling keys and other techniques are used by good access control companies to deal with this.

Actually the most common hotel room etc locks are not (contrary to much opinion) wired at all, but have batteries inside. It is extraordinary how often these batteries go flat.

Indeed, at max a couple years and usually much less. They'd need to be wired into the train to be practical.

 

[Wolfie]

Actually the most common hotel room etc locks are not (contrary to much opinion) wired at all, but have batteries inside. It is extraordinary how often these batteries go flat. There is some stand-alone electronic logic in them that allows people to leave the hotel with the key card, but not be able to get back in the room once a next guest has entered for the first time with their own issued card.

TY. You live and learn...

 

[class68fan]

Security is important on trains but ease of access in emergency is needed to.

 

[Goofle]

There's also a downloadable memory of sorts which records recent usage and by who i believe - this could be a handy facility in the railway situation?

Actually the most common hotel room etc locks are not (contrary to much opinion) wired at all, but have batteries inside. It is extraordinary how often these batteries go flat. There is some stand-alone electronic logic in them that allows people to leave the hotel with the key card, but not be able to get back in the room once a next guest has entered for the first time with their own issued card.

 

[YorksLad12]

How about a compromise for mission-critical keys (such as being able to enter the cab and drive the unit)? A piece of plastic, about the length of a credit card but half the depth. One end has a series of square holes punched into it to act as the key; the other end is slightly thicker with a chip inside. It's a difficult-to-duplicate physical key, while the chip authorises the key itself, not the system to be used. Lose your key, the card gets deactivated. The key would need to be reauthorised at regular (preferably, irregular) intervals, which could be done online.

I had a dumb version (just a piece of plastic!) of such a key in the 1990s.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I fear many are trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be. Hopefully this is a one off incident. To do what they have done required some knowledge of how to lock doors etc so it’s unlikely to be a random attack.
As more modern traction is introduced access to cabs will be made more secure but you can still isolate passenger doors on even the newest trains with a T key!

 

[Horizon22]

The end of a T key with the hole seems little used. The square is quite universal but by having a pin there prevents the use of screwdrivers or car keys.
View attachment 126629

IET door keys are of a modern design and not easy to duplicate.

Opens up most guard panels, but often need a different key to actually activate the panel.

 

[O L Leigh]

I fear many are trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be.

I agree, but only up to a point.

Hopefully this is a one off incident. To do what they have done required some knowledge of how to lock doors etc so it’s unlikely to be a random attack.

The problem is, as I said in my first post, this isn’t an isolated one-off incident, as these sorts of things have happened in the past and clearly are continuing to do so. The railway’s current defence has been to assume that folk happening across keys are ignorant to their uses, but this clearly isn’t the case.

As more modern traction is introduced access to cabs will be made more secure but you can still isolate passenger doors on even the newest trains with a T key!

The issue here may have been locking-off doors (although we still don’t know what happened to the second train to result in it “breaking down”), but there are past incidents that I’m aware of where someone was going through GA EMUs isolating the brakes on individual vehicles using a key that they’d come into possession of which necessitated drastic action on the part of the operator.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The issue here may have been locking-off doors (although we still don’t know what happened to the second train to result in it “breaking down”), but there are past incidents that I’m aware of where someone was going through GA EMUs isolating the brakes on individual vehicles using a key that they’d come into possession of which necessitated drastic action on the part of the operator.

Again this must need inside knowledge to know where things are to isolate them. If it’s an ex or disgruntled employee they will have the necessary to nobble a train. There was an extreme case a few years ago at my TOC where a disgruntled employee was interfering with units and causing failures. Unfortunately the story did not end well and I will not elaborate further.
However unless a member of the public just went around turning random things how would they know what to do or where to look for cocks or switches.

 

[L401CJF]

Railway keys are far too easy to get hold. The three most common railway keys (T Key and BR1/BR1B Key and Master Key) allow you to access at least 90% of all locks on the railway. These three keys are incredibly easy to get hold of. They appear on Ebay and Etsy and Gumtree and other sites every week. Additionally there are many websites that sell them. Some websites require proof of working on the railway but other websites will sell to anyone. There are a couple websites out there where anyone can purchase railway keys with no checks at all.

There are even some websites that sell rarer keys without any checks that allow you to access various signalling equipment and infrastructure and electrics and gates. If you know what you are looking for you can easily get hold of any railway key. They are all available online to anyone if you look in the right place.

Many trains are very unsecured and use these T Keys for almost everything. An example is all of the Siemens Desiro and Siemens Desiro City trains use T Keys to open the panels and the T Keys to active panels and also for various other things. Most old BREL stock is the same. Some trains such as the Bombardier Electrostar and Bombardier Turbostar and Meridians and Voyagers are slightly more secure as they have their own separate keys. But even these keys can be acquired if you know how.

It is difficult to solve this. You could issue a new key for everything on the railway but any key will probably get in to the wrong hands eventually. They could have a new system where staff have to sign their keys in and out at the depot when they sign on and off work every day. But even then it will still be difficult to stop the wrong people getting hold of them.

I bought a key (won't say which) from a website (won't say where but it was a key retailer) for an access gate in work. It's on an authorised walking route which I am allowed to use, but the company don't supply keys as its not required for our duties.

The website said "For railway employees only". I ordered it, and it arrived the following day. Not once was I asked to prove my employment. Given the amount of gates it can open its shocking really!

 

[Elecman]

I have a triangular version of the UIC key in my kitchen drawer. It opens the meter cupboard. So maybe not that!

I have about 50 of those meter utility keys in both plastic and metal

 

[O L Leigh]

Again this must need inside knowledge to know where things are to isolate them. If it’s an ex or disgruntled employee they will have the necessary to nobble a train. There was an extreme case a few years ago at my TOC where a disgruntled employee was interfering with units and causing failures. Unfortunately the story did not end well and I will not elaborate further.
However unless a member of the public just went around turning random things how would they know what to do or where to look for cocks or switches.

Again, this is what I mean about assuming ignorance. If I recall the details correctly, this wasn’t someone connected with the railway but rather some ne’er do well.

There are folks out there who watch us and see what we do, and they learn by observation. And, yes, there are the curious who will just footle about, pick up some info and work things out for themselves.

 

[busestrains]

Opens up most guard panels, but often need a different key to actually activate the panel.

The trains that have a T Key to open up the panel but a different more secure key to activate the panel are a bit more secure as you can not do much without activating the panel. Although on many trains you can still make announcements without activating the panels. I have seen videos on Tiktok and Youtube of fools opening up panels and making (often offensive) announcements. So really they should use a secure key for both opening the panel and activating the panel.

Also there are quite a few trains that use the same T Key to both open the panel and activate the panel so these trains are especially unsecured.

Ideally i think we need a new secure key for all trains that is only issued to people who need them and are signed in and out every day at the depot and kept track of. This will not fully sort the issue and some keys will still get lost and end up in to the hands of the wrong people but it will be better than the current situation. At the moment it is too easy to get hold of all these keys.

 

[Horizon22]

Ideally i think we need a new secure key for all trains that is only issued to people who need them and are signed in and out every day at the depot and kept track of. This will not fully sort the issue and some keys will still get lost and end up in to the hands of the wrong people but it will be better than the current situation. At the moment it is too easy to get hold of all these keys.

Nice in principle, but completely impractical. People lose a key, ask for a spare, find the old one. Logging starts but then gets onerous so it slips away, especially if a driver or guard needs a key in a rush if it's going to delay a service. Not to mention there's a lot of other staff issued such keys (platform staff, managers, trainers etc.) which don't have a "depot". People then leave and don't hand every single bit of equipment back.

 

[Kilopylae]

A dumb nfc/rfid tag is incredibly easy to clone, you can do it with any android phone in seconds.

Don't let my uni roommate hear you; he spent several days trying and failing!

 

[Deepgreen]

The railway needs to solve this one itself by stopping using T-keys. They're everywhere, easy to make and there are lots of legitimate reasons for having one given that it's not only the railway that uses them. The railway needs to move to a more secure system, what makes sense may differ by application, e.g. cab locks may make sense to be electronic and opened by a fob, then there might be a key for locking doors out on that class of train in a box in the cab.

There is no practical way to prevent people getting T-keys, or indeed other keys that work some T-key locks (e.g. a house or car key can be used diagonally in a T-key lock without a pin - I've done this to open windows on a sweltering Class 166 with failed aircon to applause from other passengers and requests to open more, and I'd happily stand up in Court and defend having done so if the railway wanted to be awkward - the temperatures in summer on a 166 with the aircon out are a H&S issue).

The only thing a T-key should be able to be used for, if they're kept at all, is an application where you can't do any harm, e.g. opening a door panel fairing or other similar access panel but not being able to switch it on or do anything else nefarious.

I have done precisely the same thing on the NDL for the same reason with my T key. Passengers had asked the guard to do it but he just disappeared. Sweltering conditions (because UK air-con is designed to fail exactly when it's most needed) which desperately needed alleviating. Any TOC taking someone to court for opening windows in those conditions would be laughed out of that same court and would immediately leave themselves wide open to much more pertinent litigation about their failure to provide humane conditions.

 

[Energy]

Don't let my uni roommate hear you; he spent several days trying and failing!

It varies depending on the RFID key, most good access systems (such as the one your uni accomodation uses) use techniques like rolling keys and encryption to make it more difficult to clone. The cheap ones you see of ebay usually don't bother and are very easy to clone.

 

[Skie]

RFID systems are complicated because you need a controller for the doors that can check each unique card off against an access control list. So that is more expensive onboard kit, say 1 controller per driving cab. Then that needs a reliable way to receive updates quickly; If a driver gets a replacement card (they crack easily) and can't open the door with his new card, the train ain't going anywhere. All good and well if the depot is where the trains get updated, but if he needs to drive a train that hasn't been to the depot since he got his card he ain't getting in the door. Then you need the back-end systems in the office that handle printing new cards and modifying the access cards have, plus the staff to manage the process.

It isnt impossible to do, but it would cost a lot to roll out across a fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have done precisely the same thing on the NDL for the same reason with my T key. Passengers had asked the guard to do it but he just disappeared. Sweltering conditions (because UK air-con is designed to fail exactly when it's most needed) which desperately needed alleviating. Any TOC taking someone to court for opening windows in those conditions would be laughed out of that same court and would immediately leave themselves wide open to much more pertinent litigation about their failure to provide humane conditions.

I doubt they'd care that much. The windows used to be passenger-openable, but the result of that was that if (if!) the aircon was working it wouldn't have any effect and would just be a waste of fuel. If it was a guard operated train I'd have asked them to do it, but it would be an inappropriate reason to distract the driver from their duties.

I'd never do it for anything else (nor seek to obtain an actual T-key for that purpose as that would certainly raise concerns in anyone who saw it, said it and sorted it, as it were).

 

[1Q18]

For the test trains we have security keys which are individually numbered and records are kept of which individual possesses which key. They can’t be easily duplicated and they don’t look ‘railway’ in the slightest so aren’t going to be very collectible.

 

[357]

All these people saying we should sign in and out keys from the depot have clearly never used a Remote Signing On Point!

Mid-route crew reliefs also normally involve staff swapping keys so that the cab/train isn't shut down and doesn't need everything logging into and setting up again.

 

[Ashley Hill]

All these people saying we should sign in and out keys from the depot have clearly never used a Remote Signing On Point!

Plus if you lose that key or drop it somewhere inaccessible your then stuck. Most traincrew carry spare keys for this reason.

 

[dgl]

I suppose if you wanted electronic locking without using RFID you could use iButton's, they're cheap and are already used already for access control (epos terminals in the leisure industry being one big user).
They're simply a stainless steel can with the base being one contact and the rest being the other (the same as a button/coin cell battery) so are very robust, each one has it's own baked in serial number that is used for identification and AFAIK cannot be altered, at least not the basic serial number only iButtons.

I suppose if mechanical locks are to stay then maybe at least forcing the use of "do not copy"/"restricted" keys would at least stop your average joe getting one and there would be more or a case to answer if someone was caught with one on them when they shouldn't, primarily as they couldn't claim some other use for it.

I suppose one thing in favour of the simple T key is the robustness, it's a solid chunk of metal that's not going to get broken off in a lock very easily!

 

[357]

Plus if you lose that key or drop it somewhere inaccessible your then stuck. Most traincrew carry spare keys for this reason.

I carry three sets of keys for this very reason, and have attached large orange tags to BR1 and safety system reset keys to make them easier to see on the grey desk before I forget about them!

 

[Adam Williams]

How do buses work? Do you not need an NFC staff ID card to start a bus with a Ticketer machine?

 

[ACBest]

How do buses work? Do you not need an NFC staff ID card to start a bus with a Ticketer machine?

Not at all, the vast majority of buses are push-button start. On the flip side, coaches tend to be on a key.

 

[DelW]

I'm puzzled that the BTP appeal for information was apparently issued almost two months after the event in question, by which time any witnesses might well have forgotten any details of what they'd seen. Unless it was issued earlier and has only just come to the media's (and forum's) attention?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Is CCTV fitted to those trains?