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Class 175 future speculation

Dai Corner

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Fast regional stuff it may be, but it still shouldn't be seen as a suburban metro style service with passengers being expected to stand. The doors on a class 170 are not just at thirds/quarters - they are significantly wider than those on 158s/175s. That means more standing room at the expense of space for anything else. If you ask me, it is the narrower doors found on the likes of 175s and 397s that should be standard for ALL UK stock outside suburban/metro type services where passengers standing for up to 5 minutes at peak-times is pretty much
Pwllheli - Machynleth is up 25 stops in 57 miles and, I gather, very crowded in the summer.
Merthyr Tydfil - Bridgend via Barry is 23 stops in 50 miles and very crowded at peak times.

Ignoring things like gauging issues, are 175s suitable for the former, the latter, neither or both?
 
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RobShipway

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I completely disagree - 170s would be far from perfect. The lack of end gangways for starters - the working of through services between Pwllheli/Aberystwyth and Birmingham as portions of the same train is a major plus point of the current timetable and would be rather less seamless if guards didn't have the ability to simply tell passengers who happen to be in the wrong portion to walk through to the correct part of the train.


Fast regional stuff it may be, but it still shouldn't be seen as a suburban metro style service with passengers being expected to stand. The doors on a class 170 are not just at thirds/quarters - they are significantly wider than those on 158s/175s. That means more standing room at the expense of space for anything else. If you ask me, it is the narrower doors found on the likes of 175s and 397s that should be standard for ALL UK stock outside suburban/metro type services where passengers standing for up to 5 minutes at peak-times is pretty much unavoidable.
The problem with the narrower doors, is that it gives problems for people that are disabled, especially those in a wheelchair to be able to get off the train even with help from the guard.

You have to remember that not everyone is the same width in body nowadays, especially with generations eating foods from international fast food brands. Those sort of people can due to problems they suffer, can still end up in a wheelchair or having to walk with a stick or frame. Think of someone like Geoff Capes in a wheelchair and then maybe you can understand, how your suggestion goes against people that are disabled.
 

Bikeman78

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I believe that the HST do have better acceleration.
I would say that a 175 is faster from zero to 30 but an HST will rapidly out accelerate them from 30 to 100. Their performance on the Cardiff to Taunton stoppers is very impressive. They reach 100 mph most stops. I don't think a 175 would manage that.

Can 170s keep to those times when they (frequently) deputise for HSTs? If so, 175s would do as well. They have better acceleration than 170s
Yes, as do the 158s without problem, even though they are clearly less powerful.
 

Rhydgaled

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Pwllheli - Machynleth is up 25 stops in 57 miles and, I gather, very crowded in the summer.
Merthyr Tydfil - Bridgend via Barry is 23 stops in 50 miles and very crowded at peak times.

Ignoring things like gauging issues, are 175s suitable for the former, the latter, neither or both?
Neither. The Pwllheli services normally run through to Birmingham/Shrewsbury as a portion of the Aberystwyth services for which end gangways would be very desirable (and if it were up to me would be made mandatory in the franchise specification). Compared to a 158 the 175s are also rather heavy / expensive for a rural line like the Cambrian.

If I put aside the portion working and assume Pwllheli - Machynlleth was run as a standalone service the lack of gangways would no longer be an issue but the weight/cost issue would remain and the top-speed would then be rather excessive. Something geared for faster acceleration and a 75mph top speed would then be more-appropriate. This service would not include a major city so there is no heavy peak commuting load - I assume therefore that the crowded services (except perhaps the 'school bus' rail service, I don't know how full of pupils these are) are crowded with leisure travellers and not commuters. Where the services run through to Shrewsbury/Birmingham there a commuting peak but in these areas the Cambrian services are limited-stop (either by missing out the smaller stations east of SHR or by virtue of the fact that, other than Caersws, there are no local stations between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury) so passengers are generally making journeys significantly longer than 5 minutes.

I also assume (though have no idea how to prove it) that the peak-time valleys services are significantly busier near Cardiff than at the extremities, whereas the crowded Cambrian Coast services are relatively evenly loaded (ie. busy) throughout the trip and (combined with the higher proportion of leisure passengers) therefore have a stronger case for strengthening throughout the trip to avoid standees. Similarly, I assume passengers are far more likely to be on one of the Cambrian services for much more than an hour than on the valleys - Merthyr-Bridgend is quicker if you change at Cardiff Central and the vast majority of passengers on that route are probably heading to/from Cardiff.

The problem with the narrower doors, is that it gives problems for people that are disabled, especially those in a wheelchair to be able to get off the train even with help from the guard.

You have to remember that not everyone is the same width in body nowadays, especially with generations eating foods from international fast food brands. Those sort of people can due to problems they suffer, can still end up in a wheelchair or having to walk with a stick or frame. Think of someone like Geoff Capes in a wheelchair and then maybe you can understand, how your suggestion goes against people that are disabled.
We have PRM leglislation now which I assume sets a minimum door width that wheelchairs will fit through. Ok; the 158s may not strictly comply with that but the 175s, 444s, 222s, 390s, 397s etc. (being significantly newer) presumably do and still have narrower doors than the worryingly ubiquitous 1300mm outer-suburban double-door. There is a wide range of disabilities too - for example some people may need more-frequent access to a toilet so I suppose it's a trade-off. You could have wide doors to help wheelchair users board but then there is less space for toilets (or other things) that can help with the rest of the journey. Once the passengers are on-board and the train is moving, the vestibles are effectively wasted space until the next station. I had to Google who Geoff Capes was, so we may be talking about different people, but Google says he is 1.97m tall - I'm sure someone that tall (who is not disabled) would appreciate the seat-pitch (84cm by my tape measure, would be great if somebody can confirm this) in the airline-style seating on a class 175 - I believe this is superior to nearly every other UK train in standard class. I'm over 6ft tall myself and when I was on the class 150 ATW provided for the Fishguard Boat train (an extreme example maybe, with only 4 or 5 stops) my knees would be crushed against the seat in front and I'd be resenting that all that space around the doors like hell - let my knees have some of that space.

I just don't see dwell times as being much of a problem where the journey is much over an hour, or the stops are much over 5 minutes apart or (as on the Cambrian Coast or Heart Of Wales Line) only lightly used. Even a 158 doesn't spend very long at a stop if only 4 or 5 people are getting on, and they have doors which (as well as being narrow and at the ends) appear to be rather slow-to-release. Passenger comfort (to provide a nicer environment than a private car to encourage modal shift) is far more important in my view - passengers having to stand is no good for modal shift.
 

Chester1

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After 49 pages, am I the only member of this site who would be happy to see the 175s turned into razor blades just to end the speculation?
 

Philip

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Informed sources have confirmed that they aren't using the 125mph capability in this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-175-future-speculation.218095/page-45#post-6408626

That however does not make 175s suitable for Scotrail.

This thread does seem rather repetitive at times. No one is going to be able to come up with a credible possible use that hasn't already been speculated on, been discussed, and in most cases dismissed, in this thread.

Other than not being enough of them to replace all HSTs, why are they not suitable for ScotRail? ScotRail could take a batch of TfW 158s along with 175s to fully replace the HSTs.

GWR is another potential option for future use - their HSTs and 165s will both need replacing within the next few years and for routes with no current electrification plans like Oxford commuter services, Cardiff-Portsmouth and Hereford-Worcester, 175s would be a suitable replacement.
 

JonathanH

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GWR is another potential option for future use - their HSTs and 165s will both need replacing within the next few years and for routes with no current electrification plans like Oxford commuter services, Cardiff-Portsmouth and Hereford-Worcester, 175s would be a suitable replacement.
If you search this thread, there are 13 pages of references to GWR in this thread. That is over 300 posts. GWR as a destination has been debunked due to training costs and past experience with 180s.

Other than not being enough of them to replace all HSTs, why are they not suitable for ScotRail? ScotRail could take a batch of TfW 158s along with 175s to fully replace the HSTs.
Funnily enough, when people were first talking about Scotrail in the early days of this thread, they were trying to tout them as 156 replacement. Now it is HST replacement. HST replacement comes with the usual point out that they have to be leased until 2030. Either way, with 175s or 222s, Scotrail pay twice if the HSTs go before then.
 

Anonymous10

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If you search this thread, there are 13 pages of references to GWR in this thread. That is over 300 posts. GWR as a destination has been debunked due to training costs and past experience with 180s.


Funnily enough, when people were first talking about Scotrail in the early days of this thread, they were trying to tout them as 156 replacement. Now it is HST replacement. HST replacement comes with the usual point out that they have to be leased until 2030. Either way, with 175s or 222s, Scotrail pay twice if the HSTs go before then.
And Phillip has suggested gwr multiple times.
 

irish_rail

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To be honest, having just fought my way off a crowded Pendolino, I'm starting to think doors at quarters/thirds would be better for ALL UK stock. The majority of what we call InterCity is just fast regional stuff with significant short distance traffic and passenger turnover.
No thanks, Paddington to Penzance is still a proper long distance route where many people are travelling for over 3 hours. Same can be said for Anglo Scottish stuff. Doors in the carriage would be horrible. Can't say I've ever had trouble or need to "fight" my way off a train , no matter how busy.
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
And if anyone hasn't tried traversing the Scottish Highlands in the middle of winter with half the coach side sliding away to let in the elements every 15 minutes or so then I suggest you do it before suggesting an alteration to door layout for long distance trains. Maybe what we need more is a re-education in passenger behavior, if the vestibule is crowded with short distance standing passengers then it would seem only courteous to step off the train for a second to let those from the interior out and then pop back on again. Or there may be other solutions to it but alteration to door position is not one of them
 

Wolfie

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He has suggested GWR, Chiltern, Northern, Scotrail and EMR at least, multiple times. Perhaps the solution here is to club together and buy him a 175 all of his own?
He does seem desperate to find a home for them. I wonder if he works for the ROSCO lol....
 

Philip

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The 175s were the mainstay units on the journeys I made when I started travelling independently on the train by myself and developing an interest in railways, plus they often followed canal routes which is my main interest, so it'd be a shame to see them go to scrap from.a personal point of view, but that's as far as it goes.
 

warwickshire

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I am thinking after the 319s, go for scrap, next on the list will be the 175s now come to think of it, probably Chiltern have rejected them all, ie 175 from original proposals, then followed by the retanus 321s, or possibly other way around, either way 319, then followed by 175 and Retanus 321 depending on how they scrap them is next in line for 2024. But only my next theory.
 

irish_rail

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The 175s were the mainstay units on the journeys I made when I started travelling independently on the train by myself and developing an interest in railways, plus they often followed canal routes which is my main interest, so it'd be a shame to see them go to scrap from.a personal point of view, but that's as far as it goes.
I agree that they are excellent internally, best on the network in my opinion especially the refurbished ones. Such a waste if they end up scrapped or on Chiltern. I'm personally a bit disappointed GWR are taking the view that they are not interested because of the 180s and unreliability. The 175s settled down very well after a few years, and I would hope there is more to it than refusing to take them on just because of perceived unreliability.
 

craigybagel

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I agree that they are excellent internally, best on the network in my opinion especially the refurbished ones. Such a waste if they end up scrapped or on Chiltern. I'm personally a bit disappointed GWR are taking the view that they are not interested because of the 180s and unreliability. The 175s settled down very well after a few years, and I would hope there is more to it than refusing to take them on just because of perceived unreliability.
I would have thought it more comes down to the fact that if GWR want to procure some DMUs from TfW, if they hold out for another year they can get the 158s instead, which are already compatible with their existing fleet and require no additional training.
 

bramling

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Central Trains tried the 170s on the Cambrian and swiftly got rid of them again. They've always been somewhat prone to overheating in the summer in general and the long climbs on the mainline part between Shrewsbury and Mach coupled with all the rural detritus getting into the radiators killed them off far too regularly. The 158s are a bit more robust in that regard.

They don't suit portion working either, and the guard really does benefit from being able to move around freely on that kind of service. I work 170s in multiple on that kind of service in the summer and it's a massive pain.

In the case of the Cambrian, ignoring stock types, ideally one would want end doors on the Aberystwyth runs, but 1/3 2/3 on the Pwllheli section. I guess in theory that could be arranged with two types of stock, but it would be a nightmare in practice.
 

Dai Corner

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In the case of the Cambrian, ignoring stock types, ideally one would want end doors on the Aberystwyth runs, but 1/3 2/3 on the Pwllheli section. I guess in theory that could be arranged with two types of stock, but it would be a nightmare in practice.
How about a bespoke design with a vestibule at one-third and nice wide doors with plenty of standing space at two-thirds? :idea::lol:
 

Snow1964

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I agree that they are excellent internally, best on the network in my opinion especially the refurbished ones. Such a waste if they end up scrapped or on Chiltern. I'm personally a bit disappointed GWR are taking the view that they are not interested because of the 180s and unreliability. The 175s settled down very well after a few years, and I would hope there is more to it than refusing to take them on just because of perceived unreliability.
I would have thought it more comes down to the fact that if GWR want to procure some DMUs from TfW, if they hold out for another year they can get the 158s instead, which are already compatible with their existing fleet and require no additional training.
GWR 158s aren't immune from unreliability problems either.

Its true the 175s would require type training, the 158s just have minor differences, but then taking on more 158s can only be a stopgap as they will be 34-35 years old by then.

We all know GWR nowadays have multiple short forms and cancellations every day (not just occasionally) and waste a lot of staff time juggling and shuffling stock everyday. But I don't know if all that time is more than training time for use on a dedicated service (eg Cardiff-Portsmouth, a service that needs 8 trains + spares).

There is another side to this training argument, and that is if they had say 11 or 12 class 175 dedicated sets, could release some staff from learning one of 150, 158, 16x (rather than knowing all 3) because the dozen freed up units would mean less mixed types on other services.

Personally I am not convinced spare TfL 158s will be available next year, I think probably be nearer 18-24 months, and not convinced GWR can hang on that long. Still a risk if Wales new trains bring ridership boom, then the 158s are kept few more years to help out until more new stock can be built.

Ultimately there is a clumsy trade off of leasing something like 175s or keep leaving people behind who can't board with all the reputational risk and cost of delay repay, plus the aggro for staff on ground dealing with it.
 

Lurcheroo

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Personally I am not convinced spare TfL 158s will be available next year, I think probably be nearer 18-24 months, and not convinced GWR can hang on that long. Still a risk if Wales new trains bring ridership boom, then the 158s are kept few more years to help out until more new stock can be built.
The Cambrian will be the last stand for the 158’s at TFW and the current plan for 197 introduction on the Cambrian is: final 197 testing December this year, crew training to start July 2024 and then 197 totally replace 158’s December 2024.

Whether or not some 158’s will be available to leave before that, I don’t know. Also it won’t take much to knock that timeline back (a delay in training crews as an example) and it’ll be into 2025 for 197’s on the Cambrian.
 

craigybagel

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Its true the 175s would require type training, the 158s just have minor differences, but then taking on more 158s can only be a stopgap as they will be 34-35 years old by then
True, but they'd be able to replace all the 158s in one go - as opposed to replacing their existing 158s and still having the now aging 175s on their books.
We all know GWR nowadays have multiple short forms and cancellations every day (not just occasionally) and waste a lot of staff time juggling and shuffling stock everyday. But I don't know if all that time is more than training time for use on a dedicated service (eg Cardiff-Portsmouth, a service that needs 8 trains + spares).
At a guess you'd need all drivers at Fratton and Westbury, plus a large chunk at Bristol. It's a 2 week course for drivers
There is another side to this training argument, and that is if they had say 11 or 12 class 175 dedicated sets, could release some staff from learning one of 150, 158, 16x (rather than knowing all 3) because the dozen freed up units would mean less mixed types on other services.
True, but as I said above 175s are a 2 week course, at least at TfW. I bet the conversion between 150s,158s and 165s is rather shorter?
In any case, isn't Exeter the only depot that signs all 3 these days?
Personally I am not convinced spare TfL 158s will be available next year, I think probably be nearer 18-24 months, and not convinced GWR can hang on that long. Still a risk if Wales new trains bring ridership boom, then the 158s are kept few more years to help out until more new stock can be built.

Ultimately there is a clumsy trade off of leasing something like 175s or keep leaving people behind who can't board with all the reputational risk and cost of delay repay, plus the aggro for staff on ground dealing with it.
If GWR/DfT were really worried about reputational risk, the Castle Class wouldn't be getting withdrawn. I'm not convinced there's going to be any new stock at all, never mind 175s - but if there is I don't see any signs of them wanting it instantly.
The Cambrian will be the last stand for the 158’s at TFW and the current plan for 197 introduction on the Cambrian is: final 197 testing December this year, crew training to start July 2024 and then 197 totally replace 158’s December 2024.
TfWs 158s could work pretty much out of the box. ERTMS can be disabled with one turn of a key, and then it works like any other 158 (as shown by how TfW drivers have worked GWR 158s on loan with no additional training). By the time traincrew training had taken place, the time saving wouldn't be all that big.
 

HamworthyGoods

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TfWs 158s could work pretty much out of the box. ERTMS can be disabled with one turn of a key, and then it works like any other 158 (as shown by how TfW drivers have worked GWR 158s on loan with no additional training). By the time traincrew training had taken place, the time saving wouldn't be all that big.


There’s no need for additional training for TfW to drive GWR 158s as they have booked work driving them each weekend!
 

craigybagel

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There’s no need for additional training for TfW to drive GWR 158s as they have booked work driving them each weekend!
True, but the that's only for a relatively small amount of TfW drivers. When those units have been on location loan, on occasion they've been worked by drivers who otherwise wouldn't normally touch them.
 

Rhydgaled

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In the case of the Cambrian, ignoring stock types, ideally one would want end doors on the Aberystwyth runs, but 1/3 2/3 on the Pwllheli section. I guess in theory that could be arranged with two types of stock, but it would be a nightmare in practice.
How about a bespoke design with a vestibule at one-third and nice wide doors with plenty of standing space at two-thirds? :idea::lol:
No thanks; it's still over 2 hours from Machynlleth to Pwllheli and one of the best scenic lines (at least in the UK) to boot. The space is needed for toilets, legroom and window-aligned table bays - no wide doors for extra standing room please. Putting the door at one end slightly inset (with the toilet and cycle space beyond) as on a class 158 and the other (narrow, like a 175 door) door at a third in from the other end might however be a decent idea (provided the external door vestibules are all seperated from the saloon by internal doors), to reduce the walking distance between door and seat.

Ultimately there is a clumsy trade off of leasing something like 175s or keep leaving people behind who can't board with all the reputational risk and cost of delay repay, plus the aggro for staff on ground dealing with it.
A variation of this happened to my uncle the other day - he was on a Portsmouth to Cardiff train (formed of two class 165s, assuming I was looking at the correct service on Real Time Trains) which split at Bristol Temple Meads. He was in the wrong half of the train and got left behind in Bristol and had to wait for the next Cardiff service - I keep saying on here that non-gangwayed units should not divide in service, if they took the 175s GWR would have enough units to run Portsmouth-Cardiff as 5-cars throughout with no portion working required.

ERTMS can be disabled with one turn of a key, and then it works like any other 158
That may be so, but are the crew allowed to turn that key? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that Network Rail and/or ORR insist on ETRMS being enabled at all times (unless there is a fault with it on a particular unit) - something about it providing an additional level of train protection compared to TPWS even when running on a line not signalled with ETCS?
 

craigybagel

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That may be so, but are the crew allowed to turn that key? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that Network Rail and/or ORR insist on ETRMS being enabled at all times (unless there is a fault with it on a particular unit) - something about it providing an additional level of train protection compared to TPWS even when running on a line not signalled with ETCS?
The only extra protection it provides is it limits the unit to 90mph (or 75mph if the driver sets it up that way, for use when attached to a 150/153). We need maintenance's permission to isolate it but I think that's more because only maintenance staff are able to switch it back on after it's been isolated, so the unit needs to be met by a fitter before it can go back down the Cambrian.

There is supposedly a change coming with the 197s in that they won't be running in level 0 when off the Cambrian, but we haven't been told yet how exactly that's going to work.

Even if the ruling is that ETCS must be turned on, it's still not the end of the world. It takes about 2 minutes to teach a driver how to turn it on in level 0 - it's really not complicated at all.
 

skyhigh

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All 175s are now listed as available for "lease or disposal" from Q2 2024 according to Richard Clinnick on Twitter. There is a screenshot attached to the tweet.


The Cl.175s are available from Angel Trains for lease or disposal from Q2 next year. None are in use with
@tfwrail anymore.
F-QWtU_XwAAplY5.jpg
(Screenshot shows 27 Class 175 units for lease or disposal from Q2 2024).
 

positron

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Given they should be available now I wonder if that's a mistake? What are they going to be doing for over half a year?
 

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