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Class 175 future speculation

Lurcheroo

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It seems unlikely to me. The 175s alone aren't enough for GWR with the metrowest improvements so a few additional 3 car units (probably 165s from Chiltern) would be needed.
Apologies, I thought the 175’s were being considered to add more capacity for GWR as it stands as they are short on rolling stock with IET’s working diagrams they shouldn’t be and then having 5cars running into London absolutely rammed. And this is without the Cornwall metro being added ?
Or I have misunderstood?

What’s the possibility of GWR also getting TFW’s 158’s when they do eventually become available?
158’s and 175’s aren’t really ‘metro’ type trains. But the Cornwall metro doesn’t seems to be what most would consider a ‘metro’. Perhaps 158’s would be suitable for things like the additional services to Newquay for the hourly service ?
 
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Energy

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Apologies, I thought the 175’s were being considered to add more capacity for GWR as it stands as they are short on rolling stock with IET’s working diagrams they shouldn’t be and then having 5cars running into London absolutely rammed.
175s would be on Penzance - Cardiff and likely the Barnstable and Okehampton services. The freed-up 158s would be deployed in Cardiff - Portsmouth in 4/5 car, but still with 1 165/166 diagram. The freed up IETs would be moved back to London services.
And this is without the Cornwall metro being added ?
Or I have misunderstood?
Bristol MetroWest improvements mean that additional units are required, and the 165/166s reliability is suffering as they are being worked much harder*. The 175s and half a dozen 3 car 165s from Chiltern would be enough.

*previously on thames valley they'd often work coupled together at peak and by themselves off peak, as such the usage was much lower as midday a lot of units were sat in depot. Now a lot of services are formed of single units so the usage is much higher.
 

Lurcheroo

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175s would be on Penzance - Cardiff and likely the Barnstable and Okehampton services. The freed-up 158s would be deployed in Cardiff - Portsmouth in 4/5 car, but still with 1 165/166 diagram. The freed up IETs would be moved back to London services.

Bristol MetroWest improvements mean that additional units are required, and the 165/166s reliability is suffering as they are being worked much harder*. The 175s and half a dozen 3 car 165s from Chiltern would be enough.

*previously on thames valley they'd often work coupled together at peak and by themselves off peak, as such the usage was much lower as midday a lot of units were sat in depot. Now a lot of services are formed of single units so the usage is much higher.
That was my understanding as far as the 175’s went, thanks.

Ok that makes sense, then if the Cornwall metro goes ahead they’ll need more units again?
 

Snow1964

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That was my understanding as far as the 175’s went, thanks.

Ok that makes sense, then if the Cornwall metro goes ahead they’ll need more units again?

In a fortnight (June 13th) ORR publish next quarterly rail usage. Probably will just be quietly issued because of purdah, so without press releases etc.

We know from last report, and the ORR data tables behind it (tables 1223, 1233, 1243, 1253) that GWR passengers are travelling about 13% further on average than pre-pandemic, and volumes are at least 80% of pre-pandemic. (or combined passenger km is about 94% of 5-6 years ago). It is also factual that on GWR routes passenger km has grown faster than vehicle km (ie on average trains are more crowded).

Further, it is possible to approximately adjust for replacement of Paddington-Reading local services by Elizabeth line. Then discover (by comparing usage and distance ratios with year ago, and also 5 years ago (and even 10 years ago pre IET) from the tables that the western (Bristol area and Wessex) and South West local services are running at something like 120-140% of passengers of few years ago, with similar number of DMUs.

So end up with raw numbers of DMUs in west being about 20-40% busier, and with no new stock expected before 2029, apart from 175s not clear how these increases can be accommodated. Of course anyone reading this could crunch the new numbers in fortnight and notify local news or candidates and ask why extra trains for the extra customers (who travel further) haven't been authorised.
 

Meerkat

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In a fortnight (June 13th) ORR publish next quarterly rail usage. Probably will just be quietly issued because of purdah, so without press releases etc.

We know from last report, and the ORR data tables behind it (tables 1223, 1233, 1243, 1253) that GWR passengers are travelling about 13% further on average than pre-pandemic, and volumes are at least 80% of pre-pandemic. (or combined passenger km is about 94% of 5-6 years ago). It is also factual that on GWR routes passenger km has grown faster than vehicle km (ie on average trains are more crowded).

Further, it is possible to approximately adjust for replacement of Paddington-Reading local services by Elizabeth line. Then discover (by comparing usage and distance ratios with year ago, and also 5 years ago (and even 10 years ago pre IET) from the tables that the western (Bristol area and Wessex) and South West local services are running at something like 120-140% of passengers of few years ago, with similar number of DMUs.

So end up with raw numbers of DMUs in west being about 20-40% busier, and with no new stock expected before 2029, apart from 175s not clear how these increases can be accommodated. Of course anyone reading this could crunch the new numbers in fortnight and notify local news or candidates and ask why extra trains for the extra customers (who travel further) haven't been authorised.
If the increase in passengers is off peak then they could well be accommodated in what were previously under occupied trains.
 

Clarence Yard

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Bristol MetroWest improvements mean that additional units are required, and the 165/166s reliability is suffering as they are being worked much harder*.

*previously on thames valley they'd often work coupled together at peak and by themselves off peak, as such the usage was much lower as midday a lot of units were sat in depot. Now a lot of services are formed of single units so the usage is much higher.

Actually, there were very few peak only Turbo diagrams in the London area and their availability was much higher than it currently is in Bristol. They were worked hard over several years.

The problem with the Turbos is that they are ageing and they overnight away from home depot far more than they did when they were based at Reading.
 

Energy

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Actually, there were very few peak only Turbo diagrams in the London area and their availability was much higher than it currently is in Bristol. They were worked hard over several years.

The problem with the Turbos is that they are ageing and they overnight away from home depot far more than they did when they were based at Reading.
Fair enough, I'd imagine being quite slow to accelerate they spent a lot of time with engines at full power.
 

REVUpminster

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If two 175s worked Okehampton it would free up 2 150s. Would that be enough for Falmouth-Newquay service. I don't think so. St Ives has gone back to two 150 this week and the rest of summer.

Just as patronage of Okehampton was under estimated I think the same will happen to Newquay-Truro section.
 

Rich McLean

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If two 175s worked Okehampton it would free up 2 150s. Would that be enough for Falmouth-Newquay service. I don't think so. St Ives has gone back to two 150 this week and the rest of summer.

Just as patronage of Okehampton was under estimated I think the same will happen to Newquay-Truro section.
Stock can be moved around, such as Exeter getting an additional 16x diagram to release another pair of 150s, following 4 x 3 car 158 diagrams being replaced by 175s, thus releasing 4 x 158s to Bristol
 

Xavi

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If the increase in passengers is off peak then they could well be accommodated in what were previously under occupied trains.
The undeniable fact is that Barnstaple trains regularly depart full and standing. Okehampton trains are also full around peak time (way above the forecasts) and that's before the convenient interchange station comes online.
 

Express380

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The undeniable fact is that Barnstaple trains regularly depart full and standing. Okehampton trains are also full around peak time (way above the forecasts) and that's before the convenient interchange station comes online.
Surely a 150 wont be enough when that interchange opens so would need at least a 3 car of some kind
 

JonathanH

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The undeniable fact is that Barnstaple trains regularly depart full and standing.
Didn't BR train planning work on the basis of trains being 135% loaded relative to the number of seats for up to 20 minutes? What is the modern day guideline?
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Didn't BR train planning work on the basis of trains being 135% loaded relative to the number of seats for up to 20 minutes? What is the modern day guideline?
It doesn’t really work solely on this now. Political agenda is a factor, no matter what the demand and operational/legal requirements have to be met. This can be anything from a minimum of 1 train per day from Station A to B, to something crazy worded like 3 trains per hour with stations in between each receiving one per hour over a 12 hour period. It’s very varied. Just have a read of any of the old franchise requirements (web archive is your best friend for this) and you’ll see what I mean. Since COVID DfT influence on this has grown with the axing of the franchises.

Capacity is no longer the biggest factor anymore, from my experience. Oh and don’t forget rolling stock provider influence, that’s a big player now too.
 

jayah

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In a fortnight (June 13th) ORR publish next quarterly rail usage. Probably will just be quietly issued because of purdah, so without press releases etc.

We know from last report, and the ORR data tables behind it (tables 1223, 1233, 1243, 1253) that GWR passengers are travelling about 13% further on average than pre-pandemic, and volumes are at least 80% of pre-pandemic. (or combined passenger km is about 94% of 5-6 years ago). It is also factual that on GWR routes passenger km has grown faster than vehicle km (ie on average trains are more crowded).

Further, it is possible to approximately adjust for replacement of Paddington-Reading local services by Elizabeth line. Then discover (by comparing usage and distance ratios with year ago, and also 5 years ago (and even 10 years ago pre IET) from the tables that the western (Bristol area and Wessex) and South West local services are running at something like 120-140% of passengers of few years ago, with similar number of DMUs.

So end up with raw numbers of DMUs in west being about 20-40% busier, and with no new stock expected before 2029, apart from 175s not clear how these increases can be accommodated. Of course anyone reading this could crunch the new numbers in fortnight and notify local news or candidates and ask why extra trains for the extra customers (who travel further) haven't been authorised.
It is not really possible to adjust these figures to account for the huge effect of Crossrail.

Reported footfall at almost station you care to name from Gloucester to Penzance that was open in 2019, is still down on pre-pandemic. The number of services in much of Bristol, Devon and Cornwall has greatly increased.
The number of DMUs isn't similar either, the Class 165/166 have provided a huge uplift in unit numbers and capacity, as well as the IETs and before them the short form HSTs.

If there is a crowding issue, despite there being more seats, more units, more services and fewer passengers, then supply and demand are out of whack. The question could be asked for example, does Exeter - Newton Abbot really need 5-6tph in each direction?
 

The Ham

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It is not really possible to adjust these figures to account for the huge effect of Crossrail.

Reported footfall at almost station you care to name from Gloucester to Penzance that was open in 2019, is still down on pre-pandemic. The number of services in much of Bristol, Devon and Cornwall has greatly increased.
The number of DMUs isn't similar either, the Class 165/166 have provided a huge uplift in unit numbers and capacity, as well as the IETs and before them the short form HSTs.

If there is a crowding issue, despite there being more seats, more units, more services and fewer passengers, then supply and demand are out of whack. The question could be asked for example, does Exeter - Newton Abbot really need 5-6tph in each direction?

Let's take Newton Abbot station 2018/19 it had 1,235,000 passengers, in 2022/23 it had 1,155,000 so a fall of 6.5%.

However, the most up to date data for passenger use for the network (i.e. not station usage) is from Q3 of 2023/24 which is 20% higher, the data publication says:

A total of 417 million rail passenger journeys were recorded in Great Britain (GB) in the latest quarter (October to December 2023). This is a 20% increase on the 348 million journeys in the same quarter in the previous year (October to December 2022). There were 1,570 million journeys in the year to 31 December 2023. This is a 20% increase on the 1,300 million journeys made in the previous 12 months (1 January 2022 to 31 December 2022).

Now whilst a lot of that increase could be down to Crossrail/Elizabeth Line as the by TOC data shows that as having a 40% growth rate, there's going to be growth on other TOC's too.

Taking GWR as an example it's seen 10% growth, if Newton Abbot has seen the same growth (which we won't know just yet) it'll currently be adding more people to the network than it did in 2018/19 (1.270 million vs 1.235 million).

To prove that's not a fluke, shall I try Exeter St David's?

Probably not a great example as in 2018/19 it was 2.620 million vs 2.617 in 2022/23, so we'd need hardly any other growth for that too be higher.

What other stations did you say?

Gloucester 2018/19 -1.521 million vs 2022/23 - 1.453 million (add 5% and it just creeps over the 2018/19 number)

Penzance 2018/19 - 0.570 million vs 2022/23 0.565 million (that's less than 1% growth required).

How about Plymouth, that's quite a busy station, 2018/19 - 2.416 million vs 2.313 in 2022/23, again add 5% and it'll reach the 2018/19 numbers.

Bristol TM that's even busier 2018/19 - 11.368 million, that's fallen to 9.292 million, that's nearly 2 million fewer and so that would need to see growth of 22% to out perform the 2018/19 numbers, so of 6 stations we've found one which is likely to still be less busy than before with the current passenger usage.

Although, even that's not a certainty. The thing with averages across a wide range of places is that it's entirely possible for one place to do much better than the others, basically an outlier. That's not to say that Bristol will have seen much higher growth than the average (the thing we can say for certain is that it's not recovered as well as the others so far).

Currently the data isn't publicly available to know for sure, however from the above there's a fairly strong likelihood that at least a significant number of stations in the GWR area are currently at or above their 2018/19 usage numbers, maybe even the whole of the GWR area, (which may still have stations which are lower) when allowing for Crossrail/Elizabeth Line usage, may be higher.

If I were to place a bet I'd be more confident in winning that bet based on the GWR usage being higher currently than in 2018/19 than it still being lower. If we're are to look at stations in the South West, I'd be more confident still (I've looked at the numbers for some within the network Railcard zone and they could well struggle to get back to the 2018/19 levels, however none of them are likely to impact the business case for the 175's moving to GWR).

The point being the currently available data doesn't allow us to be sure either way, but the station data is 9 months or of date, with the next set due in a matter of a couple of weeks will give us data which then puts the station usage data a full year out of date.
 

Snow1964

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To follow up on @The Ham post, I had also done similar comparison on few stations from station usage spreadsheet (although never typed out such a detailed post).

That 2022-23 station usage data is 14-26 months out of date (but latest published). I too would use suspect that nearly every GWR station (excluding those in London commuter belt) is at least matching, and more likely now well above 2018-2019 usage figures. Again applying the known gains in overall quarterly figures (which are more recent, but are total for operator, not locally split). And don't forget the quarterly figures show average GWR passenger travels about 13% further than in 2019

Depending on how far back into twenty-teen years you go, have lost the 143s but gained some 150s, gained some 165 and 166 out west (when the 387s were introduced) lost a number of 387s (which took over Heathrow Express), lost 3 387s (when 345s took over some local services). Had IETs replace HSTs, and of course had XC shorten or cut back many services to South West forcing changes to GWR.

Like a number of operators, the service levels tend to be determined by franchise agreements set about decade ago, with follow on management contracts. Not dynamically based on station usage and ticket sale trends. Even if it was, most of the services in London area that have been cut back have wrong stock for South West (can't utilise an electric networker in Devon).

Short term can only be fixed with more diesel stock, only ones available are 175s. Strictly there are 68s+mk5s also available, but it is local and semi-fast stock that is needed (not more long distance stock when few IETs are already covering some non-Express duties)

Coming up within next couple of years :
150s from TfW (but would need expensive life extension overhauls)
158s from TfW (but not available for least 12-18 months)
220s ex Avanti (when 805, 807 in service, but too few anyway)
222s ex EMR (probably going to wait 1.5 to 2.5 years)
New stock (project Churchward) is 5-7 years away

So realistically 175s are only possible short term fix. And with usage booming in Wessex, Bristol Metro and South West, the glacial pace of getting them (or even getting anything) is dreadful.
 

Xavi

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Reported footfall at almost station you care to name from Gloucester to Penzance that was open in 2019, is still down on pre-pandemic.
If you take the Exeter area, where a large part of the regional fleet is deployed, the main stations are at 2019 usage, and Barnstaple previously mentioned is up 25%.

Traffic is continuing to grow and GWR currently has a smaller fleet. Remove the impact of strikes (unlikely to continue under Labour) and regional rail travel has recovered very well.

The question could be asked for example, does Exeter - Newton Abbot really need 5-6tph in each direction?
Yes, 1-2 London trains well used, 1-2 XC well used and often with too few carriages, 0-1 Cardiff - Penzance a great success since they were introduced, 2 Devon Metro one of most used regional rail services not serving a major city.
 
Last edited:

HamworthyGoods

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Coming up within next couple of years :
150s from TfW (but would need expensive life extension overhauls)
158s from TfW (but not available for least 12-18 months)
220s ex Avanti (when 805, 807 in service, but too few anyway)
222s ex EMR (probably going to wait 1.5 to 2.5 years)
New stock (project Churchward) is 5-7 years away

150s from TfW are not available. The ROSCO has made it quite clear no further leases will be available and they will be stripped for spares for other 150 fleets in the country.
 

pokemonsuper9

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221s ex Avanti (when 805, 807 in service, but too few anyway)
222s ex EMR (probably going to wait 1.5 to 2.5 years)
The 22x are in quite high demand, OAs will want some in the short term while they wait for more bi-modes (Hull Trains to Sheffield has a 222 in the concept art, Virgin's application mentions 222s).
 

stevieinselby

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It is not really possible to adjust these figures to account for the huge effect of Crossrail.

Reported footfall at almost station you care to name from Gloucester to Penzance that was open in 2019, is still down on pre-pandemic. The number of services in much of Bristol, Devon and Cornwall has greatly increased.
The number of DMUs isn't similar either, the Class 165/166 have provided a huge uplift in unit numbers and capacity, as well as the IETs and before them the short form HSTs.

If there is a crowding issue, despite there being more seats, more units, more services and fewer passengers, then supply and demand are out of whack. The question could be asked for example, does Exeter - Newton Abbot really need 5-6tph in each direction?
There aren't 5–6tph running from Exeter to Newton Abbot.
There may be 5–6tph that call at Exeter and at Newton Abbot, but that's a different situation.
Some of those are local trains, some are long-distance. As the station at the junction between the mainline and the Torbay branch, Newton Abbot needs to have regular services on both lines to facilitate passengers travelling between Torbay and Plymouth.
The station serves a hinterland population of well over 50,000, and so can justify calls on the London trains and on XC trains. Which ones do you think it should do without?

Not all stations in the West Country are down! On the contrary, quite a lot have seen increased passenger numbers.
2018/192019/202021/222022/23
St Erth271k291k386k365k
Hayle83k92k119k127k
Camborne266k278k280k296k
Penryn240k248k269k258k
Falmouth Town214k222k233k244k
Falmouth Docks97k114k124k123k
Bugle5.6k4.8k6.4k6.7k
St Columb Road1.9k1.8k2.7k2.8k
Quintrell Downs2.7k2.4k2.8k
3.0k​
Newquay103k97k109k
130k​
Lostwithiel67k68k61k
72k​
Bodmin Parkway234k243k230k
261k​
St Germans57k58k54k
65k​
Saltash84k85k118k
137k​
Keyham7.5k7.8k8.8k
14k​
Ivybridge54k55k67k
101k​
Torre281k290k302k
332k​
Dawlish Warren190k187k234k
233k​
Tiverton Parkway480k510k405k
524k​
Bridgwater366k364k352k
429k​
Highbridge & Burnham205k213k195k
232k​

And plenty of others are only down by very small margins, eg: passenger numbers at Newton Abbot were down 6% in 2022/23 from 2018/19, but it is very likely that when the 2023/24 figures come out they will show an increase on pre-pandemic numbers.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Is that due to serious bodywork corrosion issues?

It’s because the ROSCO deems the fleet as life expired and doesn’t wish to undertake any new leases on the fleet.

Leasing vehicles of this age can be full of unexpected costs to the ROSCO whether it’s fixing corrosion or other defects and they view it as too high a risk it’s not financially viable.
 

ic31420

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It’s because the ROSCO deems the fleet as life expired and doesn’t wish to undertake any new leases on the fleet.

Leasing vehicles of this age can be full of unexpected costs to the ROSCO whether it’s fixing corrosion or other defects and they view it as too high a risk it’s not financially viable.

Who is the Rosco?... We are in times not really seen before where a few ROSCOs have a bit of stock parked up off lease costing money.

Is it not perhaps also the case theyll want to lease the stock they can earn the most money on? So why lease a 150 a £1 when you can lease a 175 at £2
 

Energy

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Who is the Rosco?
Angel Trains.
Is it not perhaps also the case theyll want to lease the stock they can earn the most money on? So why lease a 150 a £1 when you can lease a 175 at £2
No, different ROSCO. The TfW 150s are Porterbrook.

Porterbrook run the risk that if they sign a 5 year lease on the TfW 150s, they have to do the relevant exams, bodywork repair etc. to keep them in running order until the end of the lease. GWR is unlikely to want to fund expensive rust removal and exams unless they are keeping them for much longer.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Who is the Rosco?... We are in times not really seen before where a few ROSCOs have a bit of stock parked up off lease costing money.

Is it not perhaps also the case theyll want to lease the stock they can earn the most money on? So why lease a 150 a £1 when you can lease a 175 at £2

It’s Porterbrook is the ROSCO for the TfW cl150s.

Nothing to do with other stock it’s totally to do with risk of unexpected costs during overhauls that aren’t
 

Snow1964

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Who is the Rosco?... We are in times not really seen before where a few ROSCOs have a bit of stock parked up off lease costing money.

Is it not perhaps also the case theyll want to lease the stock they can earn the most money on? So why lease a 150 a £1 when you can lease a 175 at £2

For the 150s many of them have had short term extensions to existing leases (due to later than planned arrival of new stock). Whilst existing operator will accept it because it is helping them out, not the way a new operator would look at it.

It is same principle as if you were renting a flat or buying a secondhand car, would expect cleaning, refresh, and anything due a service to be done, so it is ready for you to use for period of the lease.

The production 150s were built 37-39 years ago, and a LeaseCo doesn't want to spend an unknown amount of money to only get just a few years rental.
 

Rhydgaled

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The production 150s were built 37-39 years ago, and a LeaseCo doesn't want to spend an unknown amount of money to only get just a few years rental.
Indeed. I was quite surprised that the ROSCOs allowed TfW (for exmaple) to have a relative short lease on the 150s after spending rather a lot doing PRM work on them (PRM only required from 1st Jan 2020, so they spent all that money for only a bit over four years use if the 150s are scrapped in 2025).
 

43096

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Indeed. I was quite surprised that the ROSCOs allowed TfW (for exmaple) to have a relative short lease on the 150s after spending rather a lot doing PRM work on them (PRM only required from 1st Jan 2020, so they spent all that money for only a bit over four years use if the 150s are scrapped in 2025).
The length of lease requested would no doubt influence the price quoted - a shorter lease and the cost per day/month/year will go up so that any investment is recovered.
 

Anonymous10

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The length of lease requested would no doubt influence the price quoted - a shorter lease and the cost per day/month/year will go up so that any investment is recovered.
Of course TFW had no option given speeds to introduce their fleets and it being a legal requirement as well, so the leaser could just ask more for that reason too.
 

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