Class 20's being driven cab first

[TheITGuy]

This is a random thought I had whilst thumbing through one of my railway books, with a photo showing a class 20 being driven cab first, as that afforded better visibility for the driver. Many photographs show the same method for class 20s. Given the cab layout is designed around being driven bonnet first, how does the driver comfortably drive the loco in this way?

 

[jfollows]

This is a random thought I had whilst thumbing through one of my railway books, with a photo showing a class 20 being driven cab first, as that afforded better visibility for the driver. Many photographs show the same method for class 20s. Given the cab layout is designed around being driven bonnet first, how does the driver comfortably drive the loco in this way?

Are you sure about the layout?
From https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8332/8136742159_aa6ef709dc_b.jpg appears to show dual controls.
EDIT picture attached

 

[LowLevel]

Class 20s have 2 drivers desks, you can use either.

 

[Bob Price]

See here for an example:

 

[TheITGuy]

So does one desk face forward and the other backwards?

 

[jfollows]

So does one desk face forward and the other backwards?

No, they each face forward when they’re in use!
Each on the left-hand side for their direction of use. See the picture I gave a link to and it should be clear.

 

[12LDA28C]

This is a random thought I had whilst thumbing through one of my railway books, with a photo showing a class 20 being driven cab first, as that afforded better visibility for the driver. Many photographs show the same method for class 20s. Given the cab layout is designed around being driven bonnet first, how does the driver comfortably drive the loco in this way?

Quite the opposite, the 20 is designed for driving with the cabbed (no.2 end) leading, but the cab does feature dual controls. In fact in BR days I believe a secondman was required when driving 'nose first' to assist with signal sighting.

No, they each face forward when they’re in use!
Each on the left-hand side for their direction of use. See the picture I gave a link to and it should be clear.

By design, when one desk is in use driving forwards, the other will be facing backwards. At least it doesn't take long to change ends!

 

[Spagnoletti]

Quite the opposite, the 20 is designed for driving with the cabbed (no.2 end) leading, but the cab does feature dual controls. In fact in BR days I believe a secondman was required when driving 'nose first' to assist with signal sighting.



By design, when one desk is in use driving forwards, the other will be facing backwards. At least it doesn't take long to change ends!

Don't leave your brew in the wrong place though or it'll end up on the deck

 

[Big Jumby 74]

So does one desk face forward and the other backwards?

The seats swivel round, the far one in jfollows image would swivel 180' when the driver wanted to drive nose end (No 1 end) leading.

 

[TheITGuy]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. @ JFollows - I didn't initially spot your photo of the interior of the cab and that what I meant by "So does one desk face forward and the other backwards?" - each control desk is facing in opposite directions. Mystery solved!

 

[jfollows]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. @ JFollows - I didn't initially spot your photo of the interior of the cab and that what I meant by "So does one desk face forward and the other backwards?" - each control desk is facing in opposite directions. Mystery solved!

I updated it today with an actual picture but the link to the picture was there from the start. Anyway, good!

 

[Taunton]

If I remember correctly from their first year of introduction, photos generally showed them single unit, and running long-nose-forward on both passenger and freight (and when lined up well polished to show dignitaries). Little driving difference to a steam loco of course. There must have been a subsequent decision to generally run them the other way round, and to have them run in nose-to-nose pairs so they always were cab-forward.

English Electric did a range of exports, eg to Australia, with the cab at the three-quarters position, and long and short noses, just like a USA road switcher or D8200/8400. There must have been some reason why they left the short nose off on this design.

 

[fgwrich]

The seats swivel round, the far one in jfollows image would swivel 180' when the driver wanted to drive nose end (No 1 end) leading.

In theory at least, though I always found (and particularly with the DRS refurbished examples) that if the cab seat was set too far back for the taller driver, it somewhat prevented the door from being opened.

Not the most irritating quirk with EEs mind, that honour goes to the stupid positing of the horn lever in the Class 37s or the refurbished DRS Cabs with additional soundproofing - making a tight cab even smaller.

 

[D365]

Not the most irritating quirk with EEs mind, that honour goes to the stupid positing of the horn lever in the Class 37s or the refurbished DRS Cabs with additional soundproofing - making a tight cab even smaller.

Very limited access to the pneumatic pipework, from what I can tell. And the driver feedback I've seen tends to be that the draught/soundproofing panels are preferred.

 

[fgwrich]

Very limited access to the pneumatic pipework, from what I can tell. And the driver feedback I've seen tends to be that the draught/soundproofing panels are preferred.

Fair enough, it was always the additional door I found more annoying. But I was never a fan of 37s anyway, particularly when coupling with them.

(Or any loco with a large bonnet on the front in all honesty)

 

[D365]

Fair enough, it was always the additional door I found more annoying. But I was never a fan of 37s anyway, particularly when coupling with them.

(Or any loco with a large bonnet on the front in all honesty)

Ah, I've not yet been on one with an additional door.

 

[Kneedown]

Don't leave your brew in the wrong place though or it'll end up on the deck

This. Also make sure your Secondman isn't poking his finger in the slot of the other power handle before you give it the lot!

 

[popeter45]

do class 20's even go bonnet leading anymore as they almost always run in pairs now?

 

[birchesgreen]

I don't want to create a new thread for this so i'll ask here.

In pairs Class 20s always travel cabs outer, but has anyone ever seen a pair operating with bonnets outer? I'm sure it must have happened at least once over their long careers though never seen photographic evidence!

 

[Intercity110]

why were they designed like that, with a thin cab one end and not with cabs both ends?

 

[pdeaves]

I don't want to create a new thread for this so i'll ask here.

In pairs Class 20s always travel cabs outer, but has anyone ever seen a pair operating with bonnets outer? I'm sure it must have happened at least once over their long careers though never seen photographic evidence!

If the link works, there is a likely-looking working on https://railphotoprints.uk/p448560584 (third entry as I see it).

 

[sprinterguy]

do class 20's even go bonnet leading anymore as they almost always run in pairs now?

Still happens very infrequently. The example in the photo linked below (not mine) is definitely an unplanned working, but the description suggests that it also occurred on Shakespeare Express ECS workings around the same time:

Bonnet First, Bang Road

Having missed The Shakespeare Express empty stock being bonnet first a couple of weeks prior, I didn't think that my next opportunity for some bonnet first action would be 10 days later! However, due to problems, 20142 Sir John Betjeman and 20189 had to terminate a little short of their...

www.flickr.com

I don't want to create a new thread for this so i'll ask here.

In pairs Class 20s always travel cabs outer, but has anyone ever seen a pair operating with bonnets outer? I'm sure it must have happened at least once over their long careers though never seen photographic evidence!

Here's an example, albeit away from the main line:

DRS Class 20/3, 20306 & Preserved BR Green Class 20/0, D8001

Working in tandem, Direct Rail Services Class 20/3, No. 20306, the former No. 20131 leads preserved BR Green liveried Class 20/0, No. D8001 on the 27th March 1999 through Swanwick Junction, on the Midland Railway Centre.

www.flickr.com

 

[birchesgreen]

Excellent, thanks guys

 

[mumrar]

do class 20's even go bonnet leading anymore as they almost always run in pairs now?

Rarely, but it certainly can happen - I photographed this occurrence with fare paying passengers on board with the returning Shakespeare Express in July 2022.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Don't leave your brew in the wrong place though or it'll end up on the deck

As Spagnoletti mentions, the controls for the both desks are connected mechanically under the floor. This means that when you open the power controller at the desk facing out of the big windscreens, the power controller on the "dummy desk" also moves, so you can get tapped in the shoulder, or worse you cup of tea knocked onto the floor. Not too bad a loco for freight work but the slab door on the second mans side didn't give much of a view. I believe Harry Needle modified one of his with a window cut into the door.

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't want to create a new thread for this so i'll ask here.

In pairs Class 20s always travel cabs outer, but has anyone ever seen a pair operating with bonnets outer? I'm sure it must have happened at least once over their long careers though never seen photographic evidence!

Like this...?

 

[D365]

why were they designed like that, with a thin cab one end and not with cabs both ends?

Cheaper to fit one cab rather than two.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

why were they designed like that, with a thin cab one end and not with cabs both ends?

As well as cost saving they were built in an era when single cabbed locos (i.e steam) were the norm. Would a class 20 type layout meet current safety requirements if being introduced today? The class 18s have a central cab with much lower bonnet either side.

 

[popeter45]

As well as cost saving they were built in an era when single cabbed locos (i.e steam) were the norm. Would a class 20 type layout meet current safety requirements if being introduced today? The class 18s have a central cab with much lower bonnet either side.

the French seem to be looking at if its safe to use a Camera for one view for this TLI project to replace the X73500's so wonder if at some point we could see a class 20 form factor train in the fruture were for at least shunting/low speed they can get away with one cab?

France explores Innovative Light Train project

Plans have been unveiled for a new, lighter train that could reduce operating costs and potentially save marginal lines in rural France from closure.

www.railjournal.com

https://www.sncf.com/en/innovation-development/innovation-research/local-mobility-for-all

 

[D365]

so wonder if at some point we could see a class 20 form factor train in the fruture were for at least shunting/low speed they can get away with one cab?

Is that not the Class 18 as described above?