Class 230 units training/introduction on the Borderlands line: updates

[TheSel]

In view of the present circumstances everything will have to be reviewed first. The additional ones are in RTT (provisional) as "Q" paths so nothing decided yet

... and if they run as shown, they appear to be semi-fast in Wales, omitting Caergwrle, Cefn-y-Bedd, Hawarden and Hope.

Example page from RTT linked below.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P20706/2021-12-13/detailed.

The other issue is that connections at Bidston between a 30 minute Borderlands service and the [at present] 20 minute service on Merseyrail's West Kirby line is far from ideal to entice passengers to use the enhanced former. Slightly tangential to the topic, but will the enhanced Borderlands service be dependent in part on Merseyrail's Wirral Line reverting to a 15 minute headway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other issue is that connections at Bidston between a 30 minute Borderlands service and the [at present] 20 minute service on Merseyrail's West Kirby line is far from ideal to entice passengers to use the enhanced former. Slightly tangential to the topic, but will the enhanced Borderlands service be dependent in part on Merseyrail's Wirral Line reverting to a 15 minute headway?

Merseyrail will I'm sure return to 4tph in due course and solve this. I believe there are issues with 507/508 availability in addition to staffing issues, but these will be solved with the coming of the 777s.

 

[TheSel]

Merseyrail will I'm sure return to 4tph in due course and solve this. I believe there are issues with 507/508 availability in addition to staffing issues, but these will be solved with the coming of the 777s.

So not by December 2021, then!

 

[Ribbleman]

... and if they run as shown, they appear to be semi-fast in Wales, omitting Caergwrle, Cefn-y-Bedd, Hawarden and Hope.

Example page from RTT linked below.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P20706/2021-12-13/detailed.

The other issue is that connections at Bidston between a 30 minute Borderlands service and the [at present] 20 minute service on Merseyrail's West Kirby line is far from ideal to entice passengers to use the enhanced former. Slightly tangential to the topic, but will the enhanced Borderlands service be dependent in part on Merseyrail's Wirral Line reverting to a 15 minute headway?

Some lines are expected to revert to the 15 minute frequency shortly but whether that includes the West Kirby line I know not.

 

[Foxcover]

Brilliant to see this coming to fruition.

But… I pinged it straight away to my Liverpool commuter neighbour who immediately noticed what I’d overlooked - it’s half hourly EXCEPT in the peak period!

As she pointed out, if you miss the 1736 from Bidston, which would be around 1715 from Liverpool, you’d have to wait for the 1847. And in the morning, an hour gap right in the peak. So her verdict was - great for leisure travel, no improvement for commuters.

Appreciate this is a massive improvement but why are the commuter peaks left as they are? I thought opening up the NE Wales/Liverpool employment corridors was what drove this (even if post covid things are a bit different).

Sorry, not wanting to seem negative, but that was a commuter’s reaction!

 

[Pacef8]

Bidston has had a short shunting path added to get them off the platform should the timings clash. Where it used to go towards new brighton.

 

[wobman]

The borderlands services going onto Birkenhead North station would be far better for the commutters

 

[wobman]

Merseyrail will I'm sure return to 4tph in due course and solve this. I believe there are issues with 507/508 availability in addition to staffing issues, but these will be solved with the coming of the 777s.

Any timescales for the 777's being in passenger service ???

 

[wobman]

Bidston has had a short shunting path added to get them off the platform should the timings clash. Where it used to go towards new brighton.

The TFW services ? There are some services that shunt out towards Wrexham and then return into Bidston, that's due to clashes of services.

 

[krus_aragon]

... and if they run as shown, they appear to be semi-fast in Wales, omitting Caergwrle, Cefn-y-Bedd, Hawarden and Hope

Some form of limited-stop on the extras was part of the plan since the start of the franchise: the turnaround at Wrexham and Bidston is very tight as it is, doubling the service without finding any extra recovery time would have been "courageous" .

Eventual through-running to Liverpool would change the diagram timings, and hopefully allow all station calls while keeping good turnaround time at Wrexham. (I haven't run the numbers myself yet.)

 

[wobman]

Is that really such a problem?


Yes that has certainly been a bit of a problem. Not so much a design flaw I think just one of those problems in trying to splice new things on to an old train.


As somebody else has already pointed out, that's legacy D78 design. I think it was designed that way to ensure that people could prise open the door slightly to free trapped bag straps etc without causing huge delays on the Underground. The doors don't have sensitive edges like some modern stock does. The doors can be manually pulled back about 2" before they hit a mechanical stop and push-back spring that prevents the door coming any further open. I don't know of any design flaws.


As I understand it, the original build contract required that Vivarail and TfW should follow on and sign a separate maintenance contract. TfW have reneged on that commitment and now seek to go out to competitive tender, for whatever reason (they probably believe they can do it cheaper themselves - good luck to them!). My sources tell me that Vivarail have spent hundreds of man hours working up maintenance proposals only to have TfW change their minds multiple times on what they actually want to do. Staff were recruited and trained in anticipation. This is time and money which a small company like Vivarail can ill afford to be wasting. This even included offering to build a new depot at Dee Marsh as a complete 'turnkey' project along with an industry partner. So I think they've been pretty helpful, wouldn't you say?


Yep. It sounds like you know more about TfW's operation than they do. Have you considered going to work for them?!


Not to mention the poor old Vivarail techs having to work outside in the pouring rain!


Well they're not quite all valid are they? Doors. But yes, reliability of units is certainly a priority for TOCs, as it is for Vivarail and other manufacturers. Pisspoor reliability leads to very bad reputational damage. I am sure that Vivarail understand that threat only too well.


Indeed. Doing things differently and trying to introduce new technology like what Vivarail and Porterbrook are trying to do, is fraught with risk. Just look at the problems when BR scrapped steam and introduced dozens of untried diesel locos. Fair play to both companies for having a go. They are doing so with far, far fewer engineering and servicing resources than the likes of Hitachi and Alstom.

There's news that some of the 230's are having to return to vivarail for more mods ? They can't find the reason for the high fuel consumption on test could be the reason maybe ?

 

[Bob Price]

Official word from TfW that services won't start until spring. Quoted as saying it's down to driver training and infrastructure. https://news.tfw.wales/news/additional-services-between-wrexham-and-bidston-from-spring-2022

 

[wobman]

Official word from TfW that services won't start until spring. Quoted as saying it's down to driver training and infrastructure. https://news.tfw.wales/news/additional-services-between-wrexham-and-bidston-from-spring-2022

The main work has started at Wrexham central now, but the 230 units need modifications to isolate a door to fit at Buckley. So the 230's need that mod and traincrew training is ongoing, that's when the units are available and running.

 

[Eccles1983]

The shed/amateur project has failed.

TfW bought the hype and are now left with the news. These units are hopefully an isolated mistake that happened due to the WG being naive in playing trains.

Massively late, poorly delivered by the builders and completely woefully planned by the operators. I've heard that the operating company don't even want vivarail maintaining the units such is the shambles they have delivered.

Instead of throwing good money after junk - an additional order of 197's should be placed. Or fast forward the 777's ability reaching Wrexham.

 

[bb21]

Please find posts relating to ideas for Liverpool-bound extension in this new thread.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/can-230s-on-borderlands-line-now-go-further-than-bidston-and-my-idea-for-liverpool-bound-extension.222415

 

[wobman]

230006 is at chester waiting for a path to Wrexham, it's going to be a while as the signals between Chester and Wrexham are down.

 

[Pacef8]

We where stuck on that train next to the 230 . The doors are tiny to get in and out compared with what it replaces . The power failure was for a hour also.

 

[wobman]

We where stuck on that train next to the 230 . The doors are tiny to get in and out compared with what it replaces . The power failure was for a hour also.

There's 12 passenger doors each side on the 230 units, they are 3 carriages aswell. I just hope the doors are quick on the borderlands line.

 

[Dstock7080]

There's 12 passenger doors each side on the 230 units, they are 3 carriages aswell. I just hope the doors are quick on the borderlands line.

Actually 11 doors

 

[wobman]

Actually 11 doors

Ok forgot 1 car had just 3 doors, they all may end up as a 10 car units to make them fit at Buckley station.

 

[DelW]

Ok forgot 1 car had just 3 doors, they all may end up as a 10 car units to make them fit at Buckley station.

Presumably that should read 10 *door* units?

Regardless of that, since these units ran full and standing pretty much every day on the District Line, door throughput is unlikely to be a problem in service.

 

[wobman]

Presumably that should read 10 *door* units?

Regardless of that, since these units ran full and standing pretty much every day on the District Line, door throughput is unlikely to be a problem in service.

Well not 10 door units yet, as it's a plan not actually taken place. So they are 11 door units that may be 10 in the future.....

 

[Pacef8]

What about mums loaded up with double buggy's ?

 

[wobman]

What about mums loaded up with double buggy's ?

Or the 10 plus bikes to go with the prams that you get on the borderlands line every day, it's a very different world than London that nobody seems to consider.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Presumably that should read 10 *door* units?

Regardless of that, since these units ran full and standing pretty much every day on the District Line, door throughput is unlikely to be a problem in service.

The single-leaf doors were their Achilles heel on the Underground - they caused extended dwell times not only because of the narrower apertures but because they were slower in operation, as each door had to travel further when opening and closing. It seemed a reasonable economy when they were designed in the late 1970s when Tube ridership was at a low ebb (and it was repeated on the short-lived 1983 Tube stock), but the success of Fares Fair and the Zonal system, and later Oyster, made them a liability.

 

[DelW]

The single-leaf doors were their Achilles heel on the Underground - they caused extended dwell times not only because of the narrower apertures but because they were slower in operation, as each door had to travel further when opening and closing. It seemed a reasonable economy when they were designed in the late 1970s when Tube ridership was at a low ebb (and it was repeated on the short-lived 1983 Tube stock), but the success of Fares Fair and the Zonal system, and later Oyster, made them a liability.

I used them quite extensively, though admittedly rarely at the height of the peaks, and never noticed them needing significantly longer station stops than did the C stock. However regular commuters may have noted differences that I missed.

Do the services the 230s will operate really get comparably busy though? (Genuine question, as I've never travelled on the line).

 

[wobman]

I used them quite extensively, though admittedly rarely at the height of the peaks, and never noticed them needing significantly longer station stops than did the C stock. However regular commuters may have noted differences that I missed.

Do the services the 230s will operate really get comparably busy though? (Genuine question, as I've never travelled on the line).

It's not a busy line as such except for a few services for the schools and colleges, plus shoppers. There's huge potential to get the commutters on the line, it's TFWs aim to get commutters on the line by adding a station for the deeside industrial estate.

Plus they want to add bus interchanges at some stations, the TFW plan is to increase rail and bus usage in the area

 

[Wyrleybart]

Do the services the 230s will operate really get comparably busy though? (Genuine question, as I've never travelled on the line).

Good question. I am guessing TfW currently use a 150 (four double doors) or 2x153 (four single doors) or maybe 3 if the conductor doesn't want you using that door. Like you I haven't travelled on a DMU service over there, but I struggle to see the issue.

What is becoming apparent to me is the innocence TfW seem to have displayed when signing the Vivarail contract. I genuinely believed Vivarail would have researched the intended operation to the Nth degree, then specced 230006-010 accordingly, particularly in view of Vivarail's experience with 230001, and 230003-005.

Having said that, how much has been changed by TfW from the original plan? Were Vivarail expecting TfW to service the 230s at Wrexham, rather than run ECS to Chester for servicing, but then servicing at Birkenhead, then talk of a depot at Dee Marsh.

Vivarail's USP seems to be the environmental greenness of battery power with increasing ranges being achieved through more modern battery designs. This seems at odds with rumours by some that the TfW 230s cannot manage more than a day without refuelling.

Seems to be a lot of rumour smoke and mirrors

 

[Zontar]

Vivarail's USP seems to be the environmental greenness of battery power with increasing ranges being achieved through more modern battery designs. This seems at odds with rumours by some that the TfW 230s cannot manage more than a day without refuelling.

Agreed.

The bottom line is, neither TFW or vivarail seem to have thought it all through. Cheap and environmentally friendly seems to have been the deal clincher.
Due diligence would have highlighted the following

Line gradients and therefore fueling issues (rumour less economical than a class 67)

How and where to fuel them so regular

Clashes with introduction of 777s, no long term gameplan for use or maintenance.

Rumour that they are having to payRog driver £2k a week to move them on depot

Testing in service....this is a very different type of commuter to Lu .

Incompatible with infrastructure, platforms too short. 16 meters of additional platform being built at Wrexham central.

This a compact list that seems to get longer everyone I read this thread.

 

[Class360/1]

Agreed.

The bottom line is, neither TFW or vivarail seem to have thought it all through. Cheap and environmentally friendly seems to have been the deal clincher.
Due diligence would have highlighted the following

Line gradients and therefore fueling issues (rumour less economical than a class 67)

How and where to fuel them so regular

Clashes with introduction of 777s, no long term gameplan for use or maintenance.

Rumour that they are having to payRog driver £2k a week to move them on depot

Testing in service....this is a very different type of commuter to Lu .

Incompatible with infrastructure, platforms too short. 16 meters of additional platform being built at Wrexham central.

This a compact list that seems to get longer everyone I read this thread.

This ⬆️

Man am I glad unions threatened to strike over them in Anglia, calling them ‘cheap, secondhand units’. The result of that is some wonderful flirts.

evidence from look east report:

According to BBC Look East, Vivarail was in talks with bidders for the East Anglia franchise. However, the proposal drew criticism from the Rail Maritime and Transport Union as being a scheme to provide "second-hand" trains to the region instead of new stock.[23] While the East Anglia franchise includes some very rural routes where previously only single carriage trains were used, the successful bidder opted for new stock instead.[24]