Class 27s and tablet catchers.

[matchmaker]

Can anyone shed light on what class 27s had the recess for the Mansons tablet catcher, or did they all?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Your best bet would be to check out one of the books published specifically on the type, can't think of any actual titles though off top of my head. I say that as from pics I have seen it would suggest many/most of D5347 on, did have them, including some in to BR TOPS blue days (27006 one such?), but by the early 80's many I photo'd had long since had the recess's plated over. I'm guessing it's a case of identifying individual locos at specific dates in time. Sure someone more in tune with the detail may be able to help further.

PS: Just confirmed 27006 still had the recess's until the end, noted in a sorry state on ED in June 76. Other random examples (dates) with recess's still in place: 5365 (1972), 27104 (1975), 5355 (1971), 5369 (1971), 5360 (1966), 5361 (1968), 5354 (1968), 5351 (1971), 27009 (1974), 27016 (1975)

Those with recess' blanked over (or tablets catchers never fitted?); 5396 (in its early blue days), 5402 (1971), 27025, 5408 (1969), 5410 (1969). Three of these, the D54xx's still in green, which does suggest some of the later examples were never fitted?

Bit of a mixed bag as I say!

 

[delt1c]

Las 27’s build for Scr had sliding side windows to accommodate tablet catching apparatus below. Whist those built for other regions had droplight windows. Class 26 were the same.

 

[Magdalia]

Las 27’s build for Scr had sliding side windows to accommodate tablet catching apparatus below. Whist those built for other regions had droplight windows. Class 26 were the same.

D5347 to D5368 were built for ScR, these became 27001 to 27022 in new money.

D5369 to D5368 were built for NER, D5369 to D5415 were built for LMR.

PS: Just confirmed 27006 still had the recess's until the end, noted in a sorry state on ED in June 76. Other random examples (dates) with recess's still in place: 5365 (1972), 27104 (1975), 5355 (1971), 5369 (1971), 5360 (1966), 5361 (1968), 5354 (1968), 5351 (1971), 27009 (1974), 27016 (1975)

Those with recess' blanked over (or tablets catchers never fitted?); 5396 (in its early blue days), 5402 (1971), 27025, 5408 (1969), 5410 (1969). Three of these, the D54xx's still in green, which does suggest some of the later examples were never fitted?

Bit of a mixed bag as I say!

The only loco here that is not in the original ScR series is 27104, or is that a typo for 27014?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

sliding side windows to accommodate tablet catching apparatus below

Had forgotten that. A very good way of identifying those that either did or had previously had TCs fitted. I did make a note of the different batches as built a year or so ago (for modelling purposes) but lost the note!

The only loco here that is not in the original ScR series is 27104, or is that a typo for 27014?

That one, as with some of the others I list, taken from a picture in the Bradford Barton Book 'BR Diesels in the Highlands', page 9. As per the caption, but the train in view is a way off. Loco definitely has a TC recess, but the number can't quite be made out - so it may be a typo, but in the book!

 

[Taunton]

Anyone know of a video of the Scottish catchers in action? I understand they used the Manson Patent design, from when Manson was the CME of first the GNoSR (later LNER) and then the G&SWR (later LMS), and that it was used on the Highland and elsewhere as well. It looks different, and simpler, to the GWR design that could be seen at Taunton on 43xx steam locos used on summer non-stop through trains on the Barnstaple line, which looked like an oversize pair of scissors.

I believe that latterly the exchangers were only used on the Highland main line, which was only class 24 and 26 locos; the other Scottish nonstop single line was Dumfries to Stranraer, which was closed by the late 1960s, and the other single line routes, like the class 27s West Highland home territory, stopped at all stations so didn't need them.

How were the Scottish tablets inserted and later recovered from the catcher by the diesel loco crew? Was it the fireman's responsibility? The Swindon-built dmus on Aberdeen to Inverness had it in the guard's compartment and there were elaborate special buzzer signals between guard and driver for successful tablet exchange, and the various mishaps that could arise, pasted by the guard's door, which were there long after automatic exchange was given up.

 

[hexagon789]

Inverness 24s and 26s were all fitted, as were 21s used on the GNoS.

27s in the batch D5347-5369 batch had the recesses but the equipment was never fitted. The WHL going over to Tokenless Block in part quite early, so the 27s were never fitted.

 

[Railsigns]

Although the West Highland Line never had the lineside exchange apparatus, the Callander and Oban line once did.

 

[Magdalia]

I believe that latterly the exchangers were only used on the Highland main line, which was only class 24 and 26 locos; the other Scottish nonstop single line was Dumfries to Stranraer, which was closed by the late 1960s, and the other single line routes, like the class 27s West Highland home territory, stopped at all stations so didn't need them.

What about Stranraer to Ayr, exchanging tablets at places like Dunragit, Glenwhilly and Pinwherry?

 

[hexagon789]

What about Stranraer to Ayr, exchanging tablets at places like Dunragit, Glenwhilly and Pinwherry?

Given that was all 126 DMUs from 1959 and those DMUs had no tablet exchange apparatus, I presume manual exchange was the norm.

 

[D6130]

D5347 to D5368 were built for ScR, these became 27001 to 27022 in new money.

D5369 to D5368 were built for NER, D5369 to D5415 were built for LMR.

Slight correction: D5347 to D5369 (later 27 001 to 27 023) were built for the ScR and had recesses for the token catchers, but they were never fitted.
D5370 to D5378 (later 27 024 to 27 031) were built - originally without boilers - for the NER. D5379 to D5415 (various TOPS numbers in the 27 032 to 27 044 and 27 1xx/27 2xx series) were built for the LMR. All of them - apart from early collision damage casualty D5383 - had been transferred to Scotland by the end of 1971. D5370 onwards were built with dropliight windows and no recesses.

The first 19 class 26's - D5300 to D5318 were originally built for the ER and had droplight windows and no cabside recess. The unique D5319 was transferred to Scotland virtually on delivery and modified to have sliding windows and token catchers on the driver's side, but droplight windows on the secondman's side, running in that state for most of its working life....but with the catchers latterly removed. The remaining 26s - D5320 to D5346 - were delivered to the ScR with token catchers and sliding windows. IIRC, the token catchers had all been removed by about 1968-69.

From about the late 1970s/early 1980s, all the relevant locos in both classes had the recesses plated-over when overhauled and those which originally had droplight windows had them replaced by the sliding variety, as a health & safety measure.

 

[MadMac]

Given that was all 126 DMUs from 1959 and those DMUs had no tablet exchange apparatus, I presume manual exchange was the norm.

And indeed, remains so (excluding Pinwherry, of course).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Slight correction: D5347 to D5369 (later 27 001 to 27 023) were built for the ScR

Thank you for the comprehensive detail. I'll save that for future reference. Felt sure such info would have been out 'in print' somewhere, but as yet can't locate anything. Slightly OT, but this sort of detail is good for those in to model railways - cough! - and I do have a spare Bachmann 24/1 which is due to have some DIY body surgery below the drivers side windows at some stage, and the associated window change of pattern. Unless anyone from Bachmann plc is watching........

 

[Magdalia]

Slight correction: D5347 to D5369 (later 27 001 to 27 023) were built for the ScR and had recesses for the token catchers, but they were never fitted.
D5370 to D5378 (later 27 024 to 27 031) were built - originally without boilers - for the NER.

Whoops! That's what I get for checking the source that is easiest to reach not the source that is most reliable.

The first 19 class 26's - D5300 to D5318 were originally built for the ER and had droplight windows and no cabside recess. The unique D5319 was transferred to Scotland virtually on delivery and modified to have sliding windows and token catchers on the driver's side, but droplight windows on the secondman's side, running in that state for most of its working life....but with the catchers latterly removed. The remaining 26s - D5320 to D5346 - were delivered to the ScR with token catchers and sliding windows. IIRC, the token catchers had all been removed by about 1968-69.

I'm mystified by what you say about D5319, which was new to Hornsey in March 1959 and was one of the last to leave the GN in September 1960. It wasn't "transferred to Scotland virtually on delivery".

Here's a picture of D5319 at Kings Cross with no tablet catcher on the driver's side, and I think a droplight window?

BR3-84

D5319 stands at Kings Cross.

www.flickr.com

D5319 was modified after it went to Scotland. Looking at the allocation history, D5319 first went to Inverness in 1962, that might be a starting point for identifying the date of the modification. But here's an undated picture of D5319 at Achnasheen still without the tablet catcher.

d_Achnasheen_D5319

Explore Ernies Railway Archive's 31152 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

Given that was all 126 DMUs from 1959 and those DMUs had no tablet exchange apparatus, I presume manual exchange was the norm.

The daytime Stranraer passenger service was all DMU, but what about the sleeper, and any freight?

 

[Taunton]

I believe the Girvan-Stranraer line had Bryson's tablet catchers, from steam days, and thus incompatible with the Manson units used elsewhere in Scotland, so after steam ended they fell out of use.

There's an interesting extended article about the subject below. Work through the other pages with the links at the bottom of each page :

The LMS Society - Single Line Working &Amp; Tablet Exchange Apparatus. Part 2, Manson Apparatus

LMS Society: Fostering Interest in Research & Modelling of the London, Midland & Scottish Railway

lmssociety.org.uk

 

[hexagon789]

And indeed, remains so (excluding Pinwherry, of course).

I've seen exchanges dome by hand on the 156s.

The daytime Stranraer passenger service was all DMU, but what about the sleeper, and any freight?

Good point, though until the Port Road closed, I think they all went that way to Dumfries. The Port Road was double line the whole way AFAIK, so no token working.

Would only have been after they were re-routed, but same principle - manual exchanges.

 

[Taunton]

Good point, though until the Port Road closed, I think they all went that way to Dumfries. The Port Road was double line the whole way AFAIK, so no token working.

I believe the Dumfries-Stranraer "Port Road" line was single west of Castle Douglas, i.e. much of it. There's a more detailed description of it in that link I gave just above. It worked through two different tablet catcher systems over time.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe the Dumfries-Stranraer "Port Road" line was single west of Castle Douglas, i.e. much of it. There's a more detailed description of it in that link I gave just above. It worked through two different tablet catcher systems over time.

Ah well then, I thought I'd read it was all double but evidently not then, that or the book was wrong if I did indeed read that!

 

[D6130]

I'm mystified by what you say about D5319, which was new to Hornsey in March 1959 and was one of the last to leave the GN in September 1960. It wasn't "transferred to Scotland virtually on delivery".

Apologies....I shall draw that to the attention of my retired colleague source, who does not post on here.

EDIT: I've just been looking at the Derby Sulzers website, which states that D5318 and 5319 were transferred from Hornsey to Haymarket in early October 1960. It doesn't say when D5319 was modified, but does state that it was in St Rollox works for fire damage repairs in November 1963....so perhaps that was when it gained the token exchangers and sliding driver's side windows? The same site has a good close-up b/w photo of D5339 at Inverness on 10/03/1962, which shows the token exchange apparatus very clearly.

Ah well then, I thought I'd read it was all double but evidently not then, that or the book was wrong if I did indeed read that!

Yes....it was double from Dumfries to Castle Douglas, plus the short section from Dunragit to Castle Kennedy....although I believe that the latter may have only been doubled during WW2 to cope with the military traffic to and from the new branch to Cairnryan. As always, happy to be corrected if anyone knows differently.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

and the other single line routes, like the class 27s West Highland home territory, stopped at all stations so didn't need them.

Whilst acknowledging West Highland passenger trains called at all stations, it is worth noting there were more freight trains than passenger trains on the West Highland. For the freights, often with lengthy non stop runs such as Fort William to Tyndrum Upper, the use of tablet catchers could have been useful although given most signalboxes were located on island platforms this would have required a tablet catcher on the secondmans side - or equipment on the drivers side which would require the the signaller to cross the line to access.

 

[randyrippley]

The Derby Sulzers site at https://www.derbysulzers.com/class26.html
for 1960 says

During late September/early October the Inverness based Type 2’s visited St Rollox workshops for the fitting of tablet catcher equipment for use on those lines radiating out of Inverness

The implication being it wasn't fitted from new
From reading the movement history on that page it looks as if the Inverness allocation didn't settle down till 1961 or later, with movements between Inverness, Edinburgh and Hornsey. There's enough there to put doubt on when which machines were fitted.
The earliest the site lists a fixed allocation for Inverness is D5320 - D5346 in October 1965, with D5316-9 briefly joining in 1966
Presumably they were all fitted by then

 

[D6130]

with D5316-9 briefly joining in 1966
Presumably they were all fitted by then

....although D5316/7/8 never received either the token exchanger recesses or their contents.

 

[Taunton]

Ah well then, I thought I'd read it was all double but evidently not then, that or the book was wrong if I did indeed read that!

David L Smith, inevitably, in his classic books about the G&SWR (I can quote this in a Scottish thread without it being off-topic) has of course a number of wonderful anecdotes about the use of tablets at various moments, some of which were on the Port Road. The Manson catchers had fallen into disuse on this line apparently by 1939, but it was re-equipped during WW2 with Bryson's equipment, same as was on Girvan to Stranraer, because of the substantially increased wartime services being run over it. It was originally fitted with a different system because, being jointly-owned by G&SWR and Caledonian, who rotated the engineering responsibility between them every 7 years, the Manson system was installed during one of the Caledonian tenures, as they had already used it on the Oban line. Must have been a nuisance for Stranraer shed to have two different systems to fit to G&SWR locomotives, although the fitters, plus a few spanners, could install or remove one in quick order.

I'm afraid I am now going off topic, back 60 years or so before the original question!

 

[MadMac]

Ah well then, I thought I'd read it was all double but evidently not then, that or the book was wrong if I did indeed read that!

Few minutes of film here, including single line sections.

 

[D6130]

Few minutes of film here, including single line sections.

A very scenic and interesting line....and a great loss to the Scottish network. Note the newly-lifted Whithorn branch and disused locomotive depot on the left as the train departs from Newton Stewart. Many thanks for posting the video.

 

[matchmaker]

Thanks for all the interesting responses! I've actually seen the Mansons apparatus in action at Elgin West.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

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