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Class 333 move to the Doncaster Leeds Line

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Neptune

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Thank you for your detailed response.
You’re welcome.
However in all of this you forgot one thing that I said, allow me to remind you:
I understand, however what the vast majority of passengers see is a train, they don’t count coaches like people on here do and when the train isn’t full they won’t notice at all.

Now if we look at the rare occasions where a 3 car will need to replace 4 car on a peak service to prevent the train being cancelled this will may be a 331 (there will still be spare 333’s so no guarantee it will be a 331 but nobody will notice that). Now, the 331’s will have a lower seating capacity than a 333 but as you know each coach has a much larger standing capacity than a 333 with door stand backs and wider aisles that people will be more likely to stand in than on the narrow 333. You would think that everyone will still get on despite the coach less and if the worst comes to the worst they will have to catch a following service, not ideal but common even with a 333 pre March 2020, not now of course.

This shouldn’t happen regularly and whilst perception will be bad on the day it is something that doesn’t dwell too long in my experience. Tomorrow everything is back to normal and it’s all forgotten about. It’s not like every single train will be short formed for a year on the triangle. It will end up being small digit percentages of trains which affects peak capacity by even smaller across an entire year digits.

If you are one of those people who makes around 460 commuter trips a year (2 journeys 5 days a week over 47 weeks minus bank holidays etc…) you may be affected 10 times by shortforms. So that’s 450 normal trips (usual seat etc…). It’s life sadly that commutes get disrupted, go by road and it may be disrupted by road works for more days than shortforms happen.
Which is why I highlighted all those points because I'm sure you will be more than aware that there is not a great perception of the railways amongst the great unwashed, and a capacity reduction will potentially be one more negative against the industry. I'm sorry if this makes you angry but there we go.
The trouble is the anger is aimed at the industry and those of us inside it are making the best of what dwindling resources we have. It’s ok aiming anger at the companies and by default their employees but it’s not us who keep pulling the funding. Like most jobs in most industries it’s a case of ‘they say, we do’. We are making the best of what we have and are minimising the impact as much as is humanly possible. It’s just that it isn’t appreciated.
As for the covid related-stuff, by and large the most of the major restrictions were gone by Spring 2021, but there were plenty of circumstances where external works (and certainly did on the roads in my area) could have started much sooner.
Perhaps but they weren’t. A lot of projects deferred due to the lockdown over that 1 year period were now out under review as whether they were value for money hence the delays. Feel lucky that despite the massive downturn in commuters they are still pressing ahead with the Aire/wharfe valley capacity enhancements because there are now very few if any services where 6 cars are truly required (even the 1718 ex Leeds, a once horrifically crowded service, is nowhere near as bad as it used to be).

Full restrictions ended in March 2022, indeed we weren’t allowed back into the office until September 2021 and then on a low capacity basis. We lost our fixed desks as only every other desk could be booked and we still had to social distance. We certainly weren’t exclusive in this. Again these things are forgotten as people seemed happy to squash into pubs but forgot about other aspects of what actually happened once restrictions were loosened a little bit in July 2020.
But if work had to be put back by years, why couldn't the swap between the 331/1s & 331/0s also be pushed back?
It couldn’t. The 4 car units are required in the west as the WMR 323’s are running late due to their new train delay and the 319’s are going off lease. As I have said a few times now, the 3 car units have been diagrammed to avoid the busy services which will be booked as 333’s. The 331’s will be working in and out of Bradford alongside 333’s which only requires 3 car max for 95% of the day.
 
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Bantamzen

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You’re welcome.

I understand, however what the vast majority of passengers see is a train, they don’t count coaches like people on here do and when the train isn’t full they won’t notice at all.

Now if we look at the rare occasions where a 3 car will need to replace 4 car on a peak service to prevent the train being cancelled this will may be a 331 (there will still be spare 333’s so no guarantee it will be a 331 but nobody will notice that). Now, the 331’s will have a lower seating capacity than a 333 but as you know each coach has a much larger standing capacity than a 333 with door stand backs and wider aisles that people will be more likely to stand in than on the narrow 333. You would think that everyone will still get on despite the coach less and if the worst comes to the worst they will have to catch a following service, not ideal but common even with a 333 pre March 2020, not now of course.

This shouldn’t happen regularly and whilst perception will be bad on the day it is something that doesn’t dwell too long in my experience. Tomorrow everything is back to normal and it’s all forgotten about. It’s not like every single train will be short formed for a year on the triangle. It will end up being small digit percentages of trains which affects peak capacity by even smaller across an entire year digits.

If you are one of those people who makes around 460 commuter trips a year (2 journeys 5 days a week over 47 weeks minus bank holidays etc…) you may be affected 10 times by shortforms. So that’s 450 normal trips (usual seat etc…). It’s life sadly that commutes get disrupted, go by road and it may be disrupted by road works for more days than shortforms happen.
Well I hope you are right. I know this the theory, but in the past theory has fallen foul of events. Its a long time ago but I can remember the days living in South Elmsall, hearing a delay announced to the 06:38 to Leeds and then seeing a 144 instead of a 321, or worse still a 142, or the nightmare scenario of a 153 trundling up from Doncaster. These were supposed to be rare events, but happened all too often. I still shudder at the thought.

But my more recent perception post May 2023 changes is that services canned these days after late running, whereas pre-covid when there were 2tph on every route a late running service would just stop short at Shipley and pick up it's next service there. So my concern is that Leeds services may get priority and those 331/0s end up running any that have been canned. And if it even happens only from time to time, don't be surprised if people quickly notice. They may not count carriages, but they will notice if all of a sudden there are way fewer seats and they are having to stand more often. Regular punters may be a bit more savvy than you credit them for. Going back to the my days on the Donnys, many knew exactly where stand on P11C at Leeds for the 17:19 that used to come in from the depot to the inch, in order to be first on to secure a seat!

The trouble is the anger is aimed at the industry and those of us inside it are making the best of what dwindling resources we have. It’s ok aiming anger at the companies and by default their employees but it’s not us who keep pulling the funding. Like most jobs in most industries it’s a case of ‘they say, we do’. We are making the best of what we have and are minimising the impact as much as is humanly possible. It’s just that it isn’t appreciated.
I'm afraid this goes with the territory, especially where the industry is seen to be failing. Been there, got the t-shirt, mug and Dennis the Menace badge with rolling eyes...

Perhaps but they weren’t. A lot of projects deferred due to the lockdown over that 1 year period were now out under review as whether they were value for money hence the delays. Feel lucky that despite the massive downturn in commuters they are still pressing ahead with the Aire/wharfe valley capacity enhancements because there are now very few if any services where 6 cars are truly required (even the 1718 ex Leeds, a once horrifically crowded service, is nowhere near as bad as it used to be).
Thanks, that they were under review explains the delays.

Full restrictions ended in March 2022, indeed we weren’t allowed back into the office until September 2021 and then on a low capacity basis. We lost our fixed desks as only every other desk could be booked and we still had to social distance. We certainly weren’t exclusive in this. Again these things are forgotten as people seemed happy to squash into pubs but forgot about other aspects of what actually happened once restrictions were loosened a little bit in July 2020.
My area of the public sector was similar, backroom ops weren't allowed near offices for 2 years, but we did still have to manage a frontline business and staff on it.

It couldn’t. The 4 car units are required in the west as the WMR 323’s are running late due to their new train delay and the 319’s are going off lease. As I have said a few times now, the 3 car units have been diagrammed to avoid the busy services which will be booked as 333’s. The 331’s will be working in and out of Bradford alongside 333’s which only requires 3 car max for 95% of the day.
Its honestly no consolation to know this due to a cascade delay to to a new stock delay, especially if Manchester are involved <D . Probably something best kept to these forums, local social media groups would have a field day with that!
 

InkyScrolls

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For what it's worth, very few people will actually notice how many carriages their train has. I have old ladies come up to me sometimes and 'goodness' isn't this a long train!', when in reality it's identical to every train currently used on the Triangle.
 

Harvey B

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Will there be a chance that Martin Oldfield's voice will still be on some of the 333s by the time they start working Doncaster? Would be good to hear the Doncaster announcements from Martin and not the TrainFX voices
 

driverd

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In performance terms 331s are much better than 333s. The former accelerate much better and manage to offset the often long dwells on the Airedale Line whereas time lost with a 333 seems to stay lost.

You just need a better driver ;) I usually manage to claw back 30 seconds between select stations in the 333s - but you're right, the 331s are incredibly rapid.

Of course, it's all immaterial if the colleague doing the doors isn't the fastest.
 

Starmill

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Its honestly no consolation to know this due to a cascade delay to to a new stock delay, especially if Manchester are involved
If Northern had a change of heart and kept running 319s in their dreadful condition you'd have exactly the same points you've raised above being raised about these. The 319s can hardly stay.
 

reecestrains

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Will there be a chance that Martin Oldfield's voice will still be on some of the 333s by the time they start working Doncaster? Would be good to hear the Doncaster announcements from Martin and not the TrainFX voices
I'm hoping the same too, I'm hoping they accidently announce it on a Ilkley/Skipton route or one does actually go down before December because I definitely want to hear it!
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Will there be a chance that Martin Oldfield's voice will still be on some of the 333s by the time they start working Doncaster? Would be good to hear the Doncaster announcements from Martin and not the TrainFX voices
That's if he's even recorded announcements for stations outside of the Shipley triangle.
 

driverd

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He has, all the stations from Outwood down to Doncaster. Just haven't heard the announcements yet.

I used to find a certain pleasure in playing those announcements when ECS. Whilst it's a nice voice, the PIS on the 333s really is antiquated and pretty basic.
 

reecestrains

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I can imagine! Let's hope we get the luck of either hearing those announcements or a 333 actually goes down to Doncaster. I think it's very unlikely with the time left before TrainFX is fitted, but we'll see.
 

Harvey B

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He has, all the stations from Outwood down to Doncaster. Just haven't heard the announcements yet.

A nice "Easter egg" for announcement fans if they can hear that then.

I can imagine! Let's hope we get the luck of either hearing those announcements or a 333 actually goes down to Doncaster. I think it's very unlikely with the time left before TrainFX is fitted, but we'll see.
I highly doubt it as I feel like the installation of TrainFX on all the 333's will be complete before they start working Doncaster regularly.

Is anyone able to get a recording of the Martin Oldfield Doncaster announcements onboard the 333s? I'd really love to hear them before they get the Train FX announcements
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I highly doubt it as I feel like the installation of TrainFX on all the 333's will be complete before they start working Doncaster regularly.

Is anyone able to get a recording of the Martin Oldfield Doncaster announcements onboard the 333s? I'd really love to hear them before they get the Train FX announcements
Freedom of Information may help
 

HarryL

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Would they even have the announcements to hand? If the trains computers are so old then they likely wouldn't just have the files sitting in an easily accessible PC surely, so they'd have to get them off one of the trains.
 

xotGD

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I don't get this fascination with announcements.

Of more pressing concern is the prospect of a 3-car 331 rocking up on a rush hour Airedale turn.
 

InkyScrolls

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I don't get this fascination with announcements.

Of more pressing concern is the prospect of a 3-car 331 rocking up on a rush hour Airedale turn.
Which is not only unlikely, but wouldn't be the end of the world even if it did happen! They're busy but hardly crush loaded. It's not 2019.
 

driverd

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The 333 announcements are a little peculiar. They only have "welcome to the x train", "the next station is y" and "the next station is z. This train will terminate here. Please take all your belongings with you".

As such, there's is no long list of stations, you'd simply have random next station announcements in the sound file. In practice, the system moves along the list as the doors open.

The novelty of your PC saying "welcome to the Doncaster train" and "the next station is Sandal and Agbrigg" would probably wear off quite quickly - though I suspect these sound files won't be available, even if northern viewed it in the public interest to release them. Its a really antiquated system and some users will likely be aware no sound files were ever added for Kirkstall/Apperley Bridge - I suspect that's down to an inability to arrange a recording session, though could be due to issues updating a legacy system.
 

skyhigh

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Its a really antiquated system and some users will likely be aware no sound files were ever added for Kirkstall/Apperley Bridge - I suspect that's down to an inability to arrange a recording session, though could be due to issues updating a legacy system.
There was no space left in the storage the system uses to store any further announcements. The 333 announcements were actually re-recorded by a new voice artist including the new stations but as they couldn't add the new ones to the system they didn't bother changing any of them. The best that could be done is text only.
Martin Oldfield Doncaster announcements
Will there be a chance that Martin Oldfield's voice
No idea why people keep saying Martin Oldfield. He isn't the voice. The actual recordings as used on the 333s were done by Dan Strauss.
 

Harvey B

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No idea why people keep saying Martin Oldfield. He isn't the voice. The actual recordings as used on the 333s were done by Dan Strauss.
The two voices do sound very Similar. But everyone on this Forum has presumed that it was Martin Oldfield who did the 333 announcemnets
 

61653 HTAFC

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I don't get this fascination with announcements.

Of more pressing concern is the prospect of a 3-car 331 rocking up on a rush hour Airedale turn.
Me neither, it's one of the more baffling aspects of modern enthusiasm.

Not sure if hearing a set of voice recordings is the sort of thing Freedom of Information requests were designed for, either. I'm sure the railway has more pressing priorities.
 

quantinghome

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The 3 car diagrams have been planned around the quieter services, principally those around Bradford. Upon commencement of the timetable the 3 car services will be looked at carefully to make sure there is no regular overcrowding issues on these services. Passenger loadings on Bradford services through the day have rarely justified a 3 car train never mind 4 and peak services only just justify a 3 car set.
I trust this is being looked at in a thorough and careful manner. School traffic creates a high demand on the Ilkley-Bradford service at particular times.
 

driverd

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Not sure if hearing a set of voice recordings is the sort of thing Freedom of Information requests were designed for, either. I'm sure the railway has more pressing priorities.
Nail on head - which is why, I believe, northern usually refuse such requests as not in the public interest (because, let's be honest, it's not).

As I say, I'm not sure how many times you can listen to "welcome to the Skipton train" before you get bored of it, and I'd suspect its substantially less time (in hours terms), than the amount of time it takes the business to find and distribute said files.

I'd suggest if anyone would like access to these files, you may well get a far more receptive response by asking via social media/customer relations. Making such a request through FOI fundamentally comes across as more demanding and is more onerous to the business.
 

skyhigh

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I'd suggest if anyone would like access to these files, you may well get a far more receptive response by asking via social media/customer relations. Making such a request through FOI fundamentally comes across as more demanding and is more onerous to the business.
Given there are a relatively small number of stations, the best chance of getting the announcements would possibly be to politely ask the driver to play them when they're sat on a unit that's sat at Bradford/Skipton for 20+ mins.

Digital copies of the 333 announcements are not held by Northern in any form other than on the units themselves. For that reason they will never be given out by FOI or other means.
 

NorthernSpirit

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I used to find a certain pleasure in playing those announcements when ECS. Whilst it's a nice voice, the PIS on the 333s really is antiquated and pretty basic.
Would I be right in saying that the automated announcements fitted to the class 333 are first generation? What with them issuing very basic information.

The 333 announcements are a little peculiar. They only have "welcome to the x train", "the next station is y" and "the next station is z. This train will terminate here. Please take all your belongings with you".

As such, there's is no long list of stations, you'd simply have random next station announcements in the sound file. In practice, the system moves along the list as the doors open.

The novelty of your PC saying "welcome to the Doncaster train" and "the next station is Sandal and Agbrigg" would probably wear off quite quickly - though I suspect these sound files won't be available, even if northern viewed it in the public interest to release them. Its a really antiquated system and some users will likely be aware no sound files were ever added for Kirkstall/Apperley Bridge - I suspect that's down to an inability to arrange a recording session, though could be due to issues updating a legacy system.
Could also be down to the storage on the onboard systems, if its the size of a floppy then no chance to add more because the existing storage space is full. Either way I'm not fussed who does the annoucement, I just want to get to my destination.
 
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