Class 379 updates (all are OFF LEASE)

[Mamorin]

Fire sale generally applies to goods owned by a company who is about to go bankrupt so needs to sell all of its assets quickly and at bargain basement prices

Thanks for the explanation.

No idea if Akiem will be about to go bankrupt anytime soon though.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Fire sale generally applies to goods owned by a company who is about to go bankrupt so needs to sell all of its assets quickly and at bargain basement prices

Akiem isn't about to go bust its main income stream is loco leasing in Europe its picked these up when it took over Macquaries European Rail assets in 2020 and it was obvious then the 379's had a time limited lease so im sure that would have been reflected in the price. They can afford to sit it out as basically they are bankrolled by SNCF and thus French government.
Reality is there little to be gained by sending them anywhere unless they are going to offer a lease rate below what an operator is paying now. Scotrail have the oldest vehicles now with 318/320 but its a 3/6 car railway not 4/8 so doesn't work. Nothing on the electrification horizon is going to help for at least 5 years. Best option would be to turn them into BEMUs but Akiem ain't stupid like Porterbrook they buy proprietary proved kit off suppliers for leasing.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Scotrail have the oldest vehicles now with 318/320

Are you sure about that?

 

[Domh245]

Are you sure about that?

Oldest electric units that haven't got a committed disposal/replacement in place - however there was the news about a tender a few months ago for a large new fleet at Scotrail that would be replacing the 318/320s + 156s + IC stock

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Oldest electric units that haven't got a committed disposal/replacement in place - however there was the news about a tender a few months ago for a large new fleet at Scotrail that would be replacing the 318/320s + 156s + IC stock

If we consider that as news that they do have a planned replacement, then the Northern 769s and 323s will remain the oldest without planned replacement.

 

[Mamorin]

No idea how long Northern's 769 have got left, but Northern's 323s have until 2029 if not longer before a replacement might need looking at.

 

[D365]

I presume that in the discussion above, we are talking exclusively about electric vehicles...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I presume that in the discussion above, we are talking exclusively about electric vehicles...

I wasn't sure at first, and therefore questioned it, what with 150s being somewhat older.

 

[cactustwirly]

If we consider that as news that they do have a planned replacement, then the Northern 769s and 323s will remain the oldest without planned replacement.

You can also consider the 465s at Southeastern.

 

[Mamorin]

You can also consider the 465s at Southeastern.

They have a replacement, that is what the tender is for most likely.

 

[cactustwirly]

They have a replacement, that is what the tender is for most likely.

It's pure speculation and I don't see it being approved in the current climate.

There's very little justification for replacing the BREL 465s yet.

 

[Class 466]

They have a replacement, that is what the tender is for most likely.

It's not even really a tender, its testing the market to then put it to the DFT who will opt for the cheapest option (status quo)... Although I've no idea what any of this has to do with 379s.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

You can also consider the 465s at Southeastern.

Not while a replacement is being planned I can’t

It's not even really a tender, its testing the market to then put it to the DFT who will opt for the cheapest option (status quo)... Although I've no idea what any of this has to do with 379s.

It doesn’t have anything to do with 379s as you well know, but there really isn’t much more to say about them other than some are going to Worksop. As the OP of the thread, I humbily recommend a mod closes it until any more news happens so those with alerts turned on don’t get unnecessarily disturbed perhaps

 

[JonathanH]

All 379s are now destined to go to Worksop for storage.

https://twitter.com/clinnick1/status/1613546524247564290

If storage at Worksop means they stay in better condition than being stored next to the sea at Harwich, that seems like positive news. Until there is some work for them, Worksop seems as good as anywhere for them to be kept.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Are you sure about that?

knew i should have said "oldest AC units"

 

[Mamorin]

If storage at Worksop means they stay in better condition than being stored next to the sea at Harwich, that seems like positive news. Until there is some work for them, Worksop seems as good as anywhere for them to be kept.

While storage at Worksop is better than storage near the sea at Harwhich, I thought most times off lease rolling stock goes to Worksop it’s to await scrap.

Still it's good the 379s will be in a good storage location.

 

[JonathanH]

While storage at Worksop is better than storage near the sea at Harwhich, I thought most times off lease rolling stock goes to Worksop it’s to await scrap.

I think you would just leave them at Harwich if scrap was imminent. Worksop has kept 720s, 345s, 701s in recent years.

 

[Mamorin]

I think you would just leave them at Harwich if scrap was imminent. Worksop has kept 720s, 345s, 701s in recent years.

Weren't those trains at Worksop when they were new? I do get your point though leaving the 379s at Harwich would have made sense if scrap was imminent.

Perhaps Worksop meens te leasing company hopes to or is in the process of finding work for the 379s.

 

[JonathanH]

Perhaps Worksop meens te leasing company hopes to or is in the process of finding work for the 379s.

I doubt it. More likely is just that the rates and accommodation offered is more favourable for an indefinite period of storage, but that the lease company hasn't given up on some work eventually being found.

 

[Mamorin]

I doubt it. More likely is just that the rates and accommodation offered is more favourable for an indefinite period of storage, but that the lease company hasn't given up on some work eventually being found.

That is most likely the case.

It’s a joke but I heard that the 379s can be modified for DV.

Ah right. DV 379s won’t happen as it would most likely cost too much to retofit shoes.

 

[The_Train]

Just to save me trawling back (although I'm sure someone will point out it's only a few pages back), could someone advise when these all became off-lease please?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Just to save me trawling back (although I'm sure someone will point out it's only a few pages back), could someone advise when these all became off-lease please?

All withdrawn by February last year, believe the lease expired in March

 

[mic505]

Physically it need six shoe beams, shoes, shoe fuses and cables to the inverter is largely all that is required. Alstom already have equivalent DV approved equivalent units so could be done. However, as i said Akiem don't do mods they are a financial engineering business that buy stock products maintained by the supplier and just collect the leasing charges.

If they were ever fitted with third-rail shoes South Eastern could take them and start binning their 465/9s.

 

[The_Train]

All withdrawn by February last year, believe the lease expired in March

Thanks mate

 

[43096]

Akiem isn't about to go bust its main income stream is loco leasing in Europe its picked these up when it took over Macquaries European Rail assets in 2020 and it was obvious then the 379's had a time limited lease so im sure that would have been reflected in the price. They can afford to sit it out as basically they are bankrolled by SNCF and thus French government.

Not any more. A 50% stake was sold to DWS some time ago and the entire business was sold to CDPQ (Canadian pension fund Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec) in December last year.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Well. 2 things will happen to the 379s. 1. A rail operator will take the 379s and lease them from Akiem. 2. Akiem will sell the 379s to another rail leasing company which will then make alterations to the 379s unless the DFT or in my saying Disinformation for Trash will block any move for the 379s.

 

[60159]

Two 379s reportedly being moved to Worksop:

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1613503708305948672

Were they both at Harwich?
Can anybody tell me where they all are including what’s where.
I know Harwich, Norwich, Cambridge, Ilford and the sidings near Ilford station ( London end) all have/ had them.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is ridiculous. 11-year old trains being sent for long term storage. Something has to be done about this.

It's up to the owner (the Rosco) to find a customer willing to pay for a commercial lease.

What you may not realise, is that for some fleets the SRA/DfT committed to long-term leases (eg for class 350/1).
In order to transfer more risk from the DfT to the ROSCOS, DfT stopped long-term lease commitments (eg for classes 350/2 and 379).
Therefore DfT has no obligation to "bail out" the ROSCOS by re-leasing those trains, as it's not a DfT risk.
You'll find plenty of posts in these threads talking about ROSCOS "ripping off" the railway in the past, and this is the DfT getting its payback.
That's why 350/1s are staying and 350/2s are not.

Having said that, DfT wants the EMU fleet at the lowest cost going forward, and to dump old stock which is expensive to maintain, so may yet do a deal where it makes sense.
No TOC has yet been allowed to order any new EMUs since Covid arrived.

 

[Fincra5]

We all know the best place for them is the GN to push 387/1s to SN (loss of 40 odd 455s and soon 19 313s)... But when you're dealing with the DfT...

 

[Energy]

unless the DFT or in my saying Disinformation for Trash will block any move for the 379s.

The DfT want savings while the interest rates are high. Once they settle down there might be more appetite for expansion.

Physically it need six shoe beams, shoes, shoe fuses and cables to the inverter is largely all that is required. Alstom already have equivalent DV approved equivalent units so could be done. However, as i said Akiem don't do mods they are a financial engineering business that buy stock products maintained by the supplier and just collect the leasing charges.

Of course it can, Akiem will want a customer first though. I wouldn't be suprised if we see some interest from GWR if the Greenford battery trial is successful.

I doubt it. More likely is just that the rates and accommodation offered is more favourable for an indefinite period of storage, but that the lease company hasn't given up on some work eventually being found.

Indeed, give it a few years and they might be more successful.

What you may not realise, is that for some fleets the SRA/DfT committed to long-term leases (eg for class 350/1).
In order to transfer more risk from the DfT to the ROSCOS, DfT stopped long-term lease commitments (eg for classes 350/2 and 379).

Worth noting that the 450s (with the long term lease) were ordered just after a 3 year contract was agreed for SWT. With contracts that short there wasn't going to be much investment.

It's not even really a tender, its testing the market to then put it to the DFT who will opt for the cheapest option (status quo)... Although I've no idea what any of this has to do with 379s.

Indeed, effectively asking for the quotes as the networkers become more difficult to get spares for.

So did the TOC at the time National Express sign a short lease contract with the leasing company which eventually turned out expensive for Anglia?.

Ideally leases should be spread over 30 years, the life of the train, to get the best lease price for the TOC?

Maybe the the leasing company will be able to get a new contact with a new TOC at a lower price to recover the remaining 20 years life left?.

On the Intercity Express Program and Thameslink the DfT got long deals on the trains. The order for 379s at the time was partly political with the threat of Derby losing jobs otherwise I'd imagine they'd have ordered a few more 350s instead to go with the existing 360s.