Class 43 disposals

[trainswitheddy]

I still can't get my head round how so relatively few power cars have actually been officially scrapped. According to Wikipedia 27 have, with 36 in store still. Then there's the many different operators and use types covering the majority of the fleet. The 19 unique cars in preservation must also be a record high for preserved units of a specific class.

They've definitely done well. Almost a privledge to be able to complain no ex-LNER powercars have been operationally preserved with such a vast fleet in preservation. Let's hope they're running for many more years.

 

[JKF]

. The 19 unique cars in preservation must also be a record high for preserved units of a specific class.

Pretty sure class 50s had a higher number than that in preservation at one time, although a few projects failed and were scrapped.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

They've definitely done well. Almost a privledge to be able to complain no ex-LNER powercars have been operationally preserved with such a vast fleet in preservation. Let's hope they're running for many more years.

43302 belongs to the NRM and was in full working order when they acquired it, so not impossible that it may run in the future.

The fleet where so far absolutely nothing has been preserved is the XC one.

 

[43096]

The fleet where so far absolutely nothing has been preserved is the XC one.

43063/071/089/102/159, which are preserved, are all former XC power cars.

 

[Towers]

43302 belongs to the NRM and was in full working order when they acquired it, so not impossible that it may run in the future.

The fleet where so far absolutely nothing has been preserved is the XC one.

Just out of interest, did the NRM acquire any trailers to go with 002/102(302)?

 

[43096]

Just out of interest, did the NRM acquire any trailers to go with 002/102(302)?

One buffet car - 40732.

The grand plan they had of "saving a set for the nation" has been left to volunteer preservationists to do.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

43063/071/089/102/159, which are preserved, are all former XC power cars.

I meant the current incarnation of XC.

Just out of interest, did the NRM acquire any trailers to go with 002/102(302)?

They've got a buffet - 40732. That's all.

 

[Towers]

They've got a buffet - 40732. That's all.

That’s a short but pleasant set, then! Got all the basics covered!

 

[JKF]

How many of the coaches from the prototype set are still about? Isn’t one in the NMT, and isn’t that rumoured to be replaced soon? I think a couple of years back the situation was that only one had been scrapped.

 

[43096]

I meant the current incarnation of XC.

I know but that isn't what you said, though. XC didn't start in 2007.

How many of the coaches from the prototype set are still about? Isn’t one in the NMT, and isn’t that rumoured to be replaced soon? I think a couple of years back the situation was that only one had been scrapped.

Of the 10 prototypes:
10000 - now 975984 in the NMT
10100 - last number 977089; scrapped
11000 - now 975814 in the NMT
11001 - now 2903 in Royal Train fleet
11002 - now 41002; now a camping coach
11003 - now 42357; preserved at Nene Valley (Northumbria Rail owned)
12000 - now 42355; preserved at Nene Valley (Northumbria Rail owned)
12001 - now 2904 in Royal Train fleet
12002 - now 42353; still stored at Cockshute? (Northumbria Rail owned)
12003 - now 42356; at Eastleigh (Northumbria Rail owned)

 

[Yorkshire09876]

I know but that isn't what you said, though. XC didn't start in 2007.

It was perfectly clear what I meant, given that the context was the fleets at the time of final withdrawal.

11002 - now 41002; now a camping coach

Did that camping coach plan ever happen? I know that the blue grey set and at least another buffet were bought by a farmer in Cambridgeshire for that purpose, but can't find any mention of it online (if it was an operational business I would expect there to be a website).

 

[D365]

Of the 10 prototypes:
10000 - now 975984 in the NMT
10100 - last number 977089; scrapped
11000 - now 975814 in the NMT
11001 - now 2903 in Royal Train fleet
11002 - now 41002; now a camping coach
11003 - now 42357; preserved at Nene Valley (Northumbria Rail owned)
12000 - now 42355; preserved at Nene Valley (Northumbria Rail owned)
12001 - now 2904 in Royal Train fleet
12002 - now 42353; still stored at Cockshute? (Northumbria Rail owned)
12003 - now 42356; at Eastleigh (Northumbria Rail owned)

Which of these coaches were reused in revenue earning ’passenger’ HSTs please.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

Which of these coaches were reused in revenue earning ’passenger’ HSTs please.

The prototype set was used in passenger service, but assuming you mean which ones were converted into 'standard' HST trailers and used in production HST sets, as follows (last operator before withdrawal in brackets, and livery at withdrawal):

11002 / 41002 / 41170; now a camping coach (LNER - blue-grey)
11003 - now 42357; preserved at Nene Valley (Northumbria Rail owned) (LNER - white/red)
12000 - now 42355; preserved at Nene Valley (Northumbria Rail owned) (LNER - white/red)
12002 - now 42353; still stored at Cockshute? (Northumbria Rail owned) (GWR - FGW blue)
12003 - now 42356; at Eastleigh (Northumbria Rail owned) (GWR - green)

They were all normally in separate sets for a number of years before withdrawal, with the exception of 42355 and 42357 which were part of the same set.

 

[43096]

Which of these coaches were reused in revenue earning ’passenger’ HSTs please.

Those originally numbered 11002/003, 12000/002/003 went into the production HST fleet. And to correct an error above, 11002 is now 41170 (not 41002 - it became 41001)

Technically most/all of them were revenue earning use at some point, as they operated in the prototype set when it was used in service on the Western Region.

 

[43096]

It was perfectly clear what I meant, given that the context was the fleets at the time of final withdrawal.

On the question of preservation of the XC 10, it's not a surprise as all are still in commercial service. Difficult to preserve something that hasn't been made available!

 

[trainswitheddy]

Did that camping coach plan ever happen? I know that the blue grey set and at least another buffet were bought by a farmer in Cambridgeshire for that purpose, but can't find any mention of it online (if it was an operational business I would expect there to be a website).

I'd be curious to know this as well!

 

[Sun Chariot]

The prototype set was used in passenger service, but assuming you mean which ones were converted into 'standard' HST trailers and used in production HST sets.
They were all normally in separate sets for a number of years before withdrawal, with the exception of 42355 and 42357 which were part of the same set.

The prototype Mk3 1xxxx vehicles received 4xxxx numbers upon reallocating amongst production HST sets. I travelled on two of the TS vehicles - 42000, 42002 - during the '80s.

Internally, the clue of their provenance was their bulkheads, midway along the passenger saloon:
Production Mk3 vehicles included a small window in the bulkhead panel.
Prototype Mk3 bulkheads, however, had no glazing pane.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

On the question of preservation of the XC 10, it's not a surprise as all are still in commercial service. Difficult to preserve something that hasn't been made available!

There were 12 latterly (two acquired from the LNER fleet), and I was thinking more of the coaches - none of which have been preserved, or appear likely to be.

The prototype Mk3 1xxxx vehicles received 4xxxx numbers upon reallocating amongst production HST sets. I travelled on two of the TS vehicles - 42000, 42002 - during the '80s.

Internally, the clue of their provenance was their bulkheads, midway along the passenger saloon:
Production Mk3 vehicles included a small window in the bulkhead panel.
Prototype Mk3 bulkheads, however, had no glazing pane.

They were renumbered in the 4xxxx range when in the prototype set (the power cars became 43000 and 43001). Subsequent renumberings of the five which went into production sets took place (some were again renumbered later) when they were converted into standard HST trailers. This was quite involved (there are photos of one stripped down in one of Colin Marsden's books), and included replacing the standard coupling gear / buffers with the HST arrangement of a fixed-head Alliance coupler and no buffers, removing the RCH jumpers from the ends and moving the 36-way control cable from beside to beneath the gangway. The slam doors were also replaced - the prototype set had doors of a different profile, and the bogies were replaced too.

The prototype was originally built with standard ETS, but one power car subsequently converted to 3-phase - I don't know which of the coaches were converted to 3-phase at that point.

The five prototype vehicles which were in TOC use aren't easy to tell apart from the later Mk3s externally unless you look closely - the main giveaways are that they don't have a raised window frame on the outside (which all the production Mk3s do have), and they have three small Roevac vents on the roof at each end (the production Mk3a TSO and FO also have this), rather than the single larger rectangular vent in the middle, which was fitted to the production HST trailers along with the Mk3a sleepers and the Mk3b FO / BFO.

 

[D365]

On that note - I did always wonder why ETS on the ’production’ HSTs became three phase. Seems a bit proprietary compared to other BR LHCS.

 

[Yorkshire09876]

On that note - I did always wonder why ETS on the ’production’ HSTs became three phase. Seems a bit proprietary compared to other BR LHCS.

It avoids an MA set on each trailer, and they were intended to operate as fixed-formation sets, so presumably it wasn't felt necessary to make them compatible with existing LHCS.

There have been conversions both ways - surrplus HST catering vehicles converted to LHCS, and Mk3a TSOs and FOs converted to HST trailers.

 

[43096]

There were 12 latterly (two acquired from the LNER fleet), and I was thinking more of the coaches - none of which have been preserved, or appear likely to be.

There's a number of factors working against that - first, they were in demand for re-use (Romic for export). Second there were some sacrificed as parts donors (scrapped). And third the sliding doors make them difficult to take on and use with slam door stock; in particular the lack of full catering cars with sliding doors really is a hindrance.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The five prototype vehicles which were in TOC use aren't easy to tell apart from the later Mk3s externally unless you look closely - the main giveaways are that they don't have a raised window frame on the outside

That clue was my "go to" platform-level check, for the two I travelled in.

 

[43096]

On that note - I did always wonder why ETS on the ’production’ HSTs became three phase. Seems a bit proprietary compared to other BR LHCS.

Because it didin't need to be backwards compatible, it allowed the design to ditch the motor-alternators on each vehicle removing weight, simplifying the vehciles and removing a point of unreliability. It seems logical rather than taking three phase output from the alternator, converting it to BR standard DC, then converting it back again on the coaches - all Mark 3s use three phase electrics, just for LHCS it comes from the motor alternator (or now solid state converters on the Chiltern fleet, I believe).

 

[Towers]

That clue was my "go to" platform-level check, for the two I travelled in.

No raised window frame but a lot of patched up rot, as I recall!