Class 450 "Guard's Office"?

[Jubs]

Hello,
Been lurking for a while now, impressed at the professional and learned input to the forum but this is my first post.
So... my question is I was on a class 450 today (unusual as the service in question is suburban SWT and thus usually served by 455s) and the carriage I was in had a "Guard's Office" (it wasn't call that but damned if I can recall the exact name - probably something like "Passenger Manager" or that ilk).
Is this unique to the 450s? I haven't seen it on any other class (although I am very much BR-NSE based). And what is the purpose? The Guard didn't actually spend any time in it but was walking the train and used his key to do "guard duties" from the local passenger doors. Surely it would be better for SWT to put seats in the area? (Not that I have an issue with it, just thought the TOC would want to maximize revenue - albeit it probably wouldn't make much difference, just a couple of what were standing passengers would now get a seat!)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I think the 444s have them as well, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[MCR247]

Pendolino's have them I think near the shop

 

[Mojo]

The original batch of 350s with London Midland have them, but the latest batch (with 3+2) seats does not. I have seen the guard on SWT services use this area, but have never seen it in use on LM.

 

[455/8]

The Guards office, Passenger assistance (as the stickers on the door say) or as its more commonly know by train crews of swt the Gold Fish Bowl, is generally used by guards as a place to put our kit bags, it also has a fire extinguisher, a cubord under the desk with a couple of plug sockets inside and a Passenger Information System (PIS) interface screen mounted along side the desk where we can enter the code for the journey, which if in multiple you can only do so from the leading office in the formation (in a 12 car 450 set you need to be in the front unit to be able to enter the code) and change the destination screens of the train, as well as having a hand set for the PA, IC and PCA.

Both types of Desiro stock opperated by SWT have a guards office the 444's differ from the 450's as they also have a consol on the desk that allows the guard to view the cctv on the train or trains if in multiple but its not really used much as we patrol the trains or at least i don't use it much.

The reason that the Desiro's have a guards office is if i remember what i was told correctly when the class were being designed Siemens were sent one of the old 400's to base their new trains on as well as looking at the 442's, 455s & 458's which were all in use at the time and inside the brake van there was a guards compartment or office if you like and it was implimented into the design for the Desiro's all be it minus the door like the 400's and even the 442's had for the guard to use instead we can use the 2 door sets next to the office.

Thats basically what it is and whats inside it and why its there but if when the franchise ends in 2017 and either SWT or a new TOC get rid of guards then it will no longer be needed so could be removed and have another set of seats installed i hope it doesn't come to that but you never know of course.

 

[paulravuslante]

The reason that the Desiro's have a guards office is if i remember what i was told correctly when the class were being designed Siemens were sent one of the old 400's to base their new trains on as well as looking at the 442's, 455s & 458's which were all in use at the time and inside the brake van there was a guards compartment or office if you like and it was implimented into the design for the Desiro's all be it minus the door like the 400's and even the 442's had for the guard to use instead we can use the 2 door sets next to the office.

I always assumed that it was placed next to the First Class on the 450s to keep the riff-raff out of that section!

 

[Scotrail84]

The Guards office, Passenger assistance (as the stickers on the door say) or as its more commonly know by train crews of swt the Gold Fish Bowl, is generally used by guards as a place to put our kit bags, it also has a fire extinguisher, a cubord under the desk with a couple of plug sockets inside and a Passenger Information System (PIS) interface screen mounted along side the desk where we can enter the code for the journey, which if in multiple you can only do so from the leading office in the formation (in a 12 car 450 set you need to be in the front unit to be able to enter the code) and change the destination screens of the train, as well as having a hand set for the PA, IC and PCA.

Both types of Desiro stock opperated by SWT have a guards office the 444's differ from the 450's as they also have a consol on the desk that allows the guard to view the cctv on the train or trains if in multiple but its not really used much as we patrol the trains or at least i don't use it much.

The reason that the Desiro's have a guards office is if i remember what i was told correctly when the class were being designed Siemens were sent one of the old 400's to base their new trains on as well as looking at the 442's, 455s & 458's which were all in use at the time and inside the brake van there was a guards compartment or office if you like and it was implimented into the design for the Desiro's all be it minus the door like the 400's and even the 442's had for the guard to use instead we can use the 2 door sets next to the office.

Thats basically what it is and whats inside it and why its there but if when the franchise ends in 2017 and either SWT or a new TOC get rid of guards then it will no longer be needed so could be removed and have another set of seats installed i hope it doesn't come to that but you never know of course.

Do you locate yourself in the back cab then when working a train or use the guards office?

 

[anonymous0101]

There are no Guards Offices on the Class 395s or Javelins and On Board Managers are not allowed in the rear cab except to leave their bags. If they are caught in the rear cab they can get disciplined for it. They must be visible and walking the train at all times.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Do you locate yourself in the back cab then when working a train or use the guards office?

I think he may be talking about the 455s in this instance as the guards are based in the rear cabs on those.

Which brings me on to a related question: A guard once told me ( about 20 years ago now! ) that on the 455s, in a single unit train ( ie 4 cars ) they would be in the rear cab, but in a double unit ( 8 car ) working they should be in the leading cab of the second unit, the reason being that should the train ever split in service there would be a member of staff in each unit.

However, in the vast majority of cases the guard in an 8 car train seems now to be in the rear cab of the leading unit. Have the rules changed in the intervening 2 decades?

 

[Scotrail84]

There are no Guards Offices on the Class 395s or Javelins and On Board Managers are not allowed in the rear cab except to leave their bags. If they are caught in the rear cab they can get disciplined for it. They must be visible and walking the train at all times.

That sounds like bollox rule. Wheres their secure incase they get assaulted??? What about somewhere to keep thier machines or money? We are allowed to locate ourselves in the back of all our units, to leave our kit bags and machine bags as its a secure non public area,also stay in there when its severely overcrowded or when running empty or when commercial duties have been completed.

A driver at the front driving and a Guard at the back Guarding

 

[CarterUSM]

That sounds like bollox rule. Wheres their secure incase they get assaulted??? What about somewhere to keep thier machines or money? We are allowed to lacate ourselves in the back of all our units, to leave our kit bags and machine bags as its a secure non public area.

I don't think the TM's on the 395's are technically guards, could someone elaborate on their role please? As far as i understood it, the service was DOO and the TM dealt primarily with revenue and customer service?

 

[Scotrail84]

I don't think the TM's on the 395's are technically guards, could someone elaborate on their role please? As far as i understood it, the service was DOO and the TM dealt primarily with revenue and customer service?

Thers that word again - DOO

 

[CarterUSM]

Thers that word again - DOO

I know:cry: Keep the faith though, we'll all be TE's soon and getting paid the same to do less work!

 

[scotsman]

Are TEs allowed in the rear cab, last one I saw was sitting with the pax.

 

[Lampshade]

Last one I saw was stood near the doors like a lemon

 

[Scotrail84]

I know:cry: Keep the faith though, we'll all be TE's soon and getting paid the same to do less work!

That is what i DONT want.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Last one I saw was stood near the doors like a lemon

Did he/she stand there and pick faults with you like?

 

[ainsworth74]

Might I just ask what a TE actually is?

 

[anonymous0101]

Isn't the rear cab only for Drivers/Guards to sit in? Others need a valid reason to be there?

@scotrail84
Where do revenue inspectors go to store money/bags? They aren't allowed in cabs as far as i know.

 

[scotsman]

Might I just ask what a TE actually is?

Ticket Examiner

 

[Scotrail84]

Isn't the rear cab only for Drivers/Guards to sit in? Others need a valid reason to be there?

Carrying the railways money is a valid reason to be in the cab.


@scotrail84
Where do revenue inspectors go to store money/bags? They aren't allowed in cabs as far as i know.

I dunno mate i dont work out of a depot on through the west where TEs work fulltime. CarterUSM may be able to answer that one.

 

[anonymous0101]

oh right. Well on board managers are a bit like revenue inspectors who on south eastern cannot use the rear/intermediate cabs.

 

[455/8]

I always assumed that it was placed next to the First Class on the 450s to keep the riff-raff out of that section!

Thats is the case for the 450's but the 44's the first class is located in the next carriage along usally at the london end of the train.

Do you locate yourself in the back cab then when working a train or use the guards office?

If I am working 450's or 444's i will work the train from the Guards Office and every so often i will walk through the train to show my self to the passengers and check things such as any disabled people on board that may need my help or any people causing trouble i can then normally deal with teh situation as i see fit, if I'm working a Desiro during the morning or evening peak and i knwo that the train will be really busy then i will work from either an intermediate cab on a multiple 450/444 incase i have any SDO's to perform or the rear cab in in a single unit formation. As for 455's i will generally be in the middle/rear cab using the PA to inform passengers of my position but i will patrol the train at intervals throughout the journey to again show my presence to the passenger. 458's still use the rule as the 455's used to as they don't have GOPs located anywhere in the train other than the cabs so its not possible to patrol the train unless you have alot of time between stations, so i will locate myself in the leading cab of the rear unit to work the train using the PA to inform the passengers of my location.

Which brings me on to a related question: A guard once told me ( about 20 years ago now! ) that on the 455s, in a single unit train ( ie 4 cars ) they would be in the rear cab, but in a double unit ( 8 car ) working they should be in the leading cab of the second unit, the reason being that should the train ever split in service there would be a member of staff in each unit.

However, in the vast majority of cases the guard in an 8 car train seems now to be in the rear cab of the leading unit. Have the rules changed in the intervening 2 decades?

The original rule for the 455's was because the coupler was so unreliable there was a strong possibility that it could cause the units in multiple to split, so guards working these units in multiple were unable to walk through the trains as we can now and were told to position them selfs in the leading cab of the rear unit (as the 455's were only able to opperate in 4 and 8 car formations) this meant that there was at least one member of staff per 4 car unit in there was an unplanned separtaion of the two units in service Drinve front 4 and Guard in rear 4 which was in the rule book at the time. Since the units were refurbished the couplers have also had a refurbishment and now they are more reliable, so guards can patrol the trains and because they have also GOPs (Guard Opperating Pannels) in each coach (one per side other than a Driver Tailer) a guard can opperate the doors all most anywhere on the train. so yes in a way the rules have changed you don't have to be in one certain place of a 455.

SWT guards are not supposed to work trains from the rear cabs of units comprised of 450 & 444 unless the train is really busy, the same thing applies for the intermediate cabs of the same stock unless the route you are woking requires SDO's to be carried out (only 450 & 444 stock) where you can only work the train from the cab to do the SDO otehrwise you are to patrol the train working from the guards office.

 

[CarterUSM]

TE's only carry a machine and its case, their float, and a T key. They can stick their case in the back, but must not linger there, though it can be used as a place of safety if required. They also shouldn't sit on the train, they are supposed to stand and be visible to passengers, and during turnaround where diagrammed, carry out a train clean.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

[/B]


That is what i DONT want.

I know mate, i was being ironic!!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Ticket Examiner

Thank you!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The original rule for the 455's was because the coupler was so unreliable there was a strong possibility that it could cause the units in multiple to split, so guards working these units in multiple were unable to walk through the trains as we can now and were told to position them selfs in the leading cab of the rear unit (as the 455's were only able to opperate in 4 and 8 car formations) this meant that there was at least one member of staff per 4 car unit in there was an unplanned separtaion of the two units in service Drinve front 4 and Guard in rear 4 which was in the rule book at the time. Since the units were refurbished the couplers have also had a refurbishment and now they are more reliable, so guards can patrol the trains and because they have also GOPs (Guard Opperating Pannels) in each coach (one per side other than a Driver Tailer) a guard can opperate the doors all most anywhere on the train. so yes in a way the rules have changed you don't have to be in one certain place of a 455.

That is very interesting and informative, thank you.

I'm now wondering about why, 20 years ago, the corridor would regularly be open between 455s ( at least when I was commuting between Stoneleigh and Epsom for about 5 or 6 years before moving to Epsom it was.* ) whereas these days it is usually not in use at all; from what you have said about the couplers I am wondering the obvious...


*As the way out at Epsom is at the London end of the train and at Stoneleigh it is at the country end, I would quite often walk through the entire 8 car train to save a bit of time if I got onto the platform at the last moment...

 

[455/8]

You could indeed walk from the front cab of an 8 car unit to the rear when the units were opperated DOO (a trial by BR/NSE) basically when the 455's were built under BR the units were brand new and the couplers you could say were "tight" meaning they had no free play in them, after a period of time due to coupling and uncoupling for several years and many reasons the couplers started to develop wear this became apparent during the end of NSE and the start privatisation when SWT took over the franchise, this was when they put guards back on to 455 services due to the rule change saying that in units of multiple formation you must have at least one member of staff in each unit incase of unplanned separation. It was then found that the couplers were unreliable and thus the rule/local agreement that guards were to work the train from the intermediate cab so to make this possible and safe the doors to the vestible were closed so that only Guards or staff were permitted to be in that area.

When the units were refurbished and the couplers fixed the units re-entered service but because you cannot seal the sections of the cab off to prevent passengers from touching certain equipment in the cabs when coupled, you can lock the 3 way door to seal the drivers side of the cab but there is nothing to seal off the non drivers side like the 450's, 444's & 158/9's and there are things on the non drivers side of the cab that if the wrong person was to touch or tamper with could cause a safety issuse it was decided by SWT that passengers are not permitted to walk through or between the two units in multiple.

So when you walked between the trains some 20 years ago there wasn't a problem at the time with the couplers and it was completely safe it was once they started to wear and BR/NSE knew that privatisation was just around the corner so they didn't want to pay to have the units refurbished or maintained as well as they used to so SWT suffered really because of it, sort of like when SWT knew they were getting rid of the 400's for the Desiro's they didn't want to waste money on the old units repairing them so they just did the least they could to keep the units in service just so that the share holders could keep money in their pockets and not loose out and the maintainence sheduels slipped basically.

 

[87019Chris]

Pendolino's have them I think near the shop

yes thats true it is only a little office space but it does have a closalbe door and most of the time the conductors just put there bage in there and leave the door open and never sit down in it as they dont have enough time to do that as they are busy doing there job(or well they should be!!)

 

[Goldfish62]

SWT guards are not supposed to work trains from the rear cabs of units comprised of 450 & 444 unless the train is really busy, the same thing applies for the intermediate cabs of the same stock unless the route you are woking requires SDO's to be carried out (only 450 & 444 stock) where you can only work the train from the cab to do the SDO otehrwise you are to patrol the train working from the guards office.

I have to say it's very common on the Windsor lines for guards to work the train from the cab even when the train's not busy. Even on occasion they'll lock the connection between units so passengers can't walk through (like 455 and 458) and so they can spread themselves out in the cab without disturbance. If these particular staff want the case made for DOO they're doing a very good job of it, I'm afraid.

 

[swt_passenger]

The original batch of 350s with London Midland have them, but the latest batch (with 3+2) seats does not. I have seen the guard on SWT services use this area, but have never seen it in use on LM.

I asked an LM guard why they didn't use the TM office a few years ago, and he replied simply that 'the union haven't agreed to it'.

In the 450 it has an obvious down side, when they are running units in multiple there are obviously 2 or 3 offices. Leaving the guard to work from a cab would have allowed 4 more seats per unit to be installed.

I'm sure the SWT 2007 franchise documentation (as originally published) suggested that the guard's offices in the 444 and 450 were going to be removed eventually anyway to provide more seats, this plan may have been cancelled of course, as is typical with these 'non-negotiable' franchise agreements.

However the relevant footnotes to the rolling stock tables have now been 'redacted'...

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm sure the SWT 2007 franchise documentation (as originally published) suggested that the guard's offices in the 444 and 450 were going to be removed eventually anyway to provide more seats, this plan may have been cancelled of course, as is typical with these 'non-negotiable' franchise agreements.

However the relevant footnotes to the rolling stock tables have now been 'redacted'...

Just like the 10-car Windsor lines trains from "December 2010"!