Class 483 (Island Line) Historical Discussion (Including Liveries)

Mikey C

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Posts #1 - #13 originally in this thread

(1) Class 484 to replace class 483 on the island line | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)



As the Island line is undergoing its biggest upgrade in years, maybe SWR is looking to integrate it further into its network in terms of presentation & appearance?

The 484s are coming with the SWR livery - they could otherwise have a traditional red livery like their precedessors - which leads me to think the IL stations may get a repaint with SWR colours.

The IL might have been treated like an afterthought in previous years as a rural & isolated line that SWT maintained it like a separate division by using a BR Southern region green & cream theme instead of SWT colours.

Going with recent trends like discouraging car use etc - the IL may be getting recognised as worthwhile for investment like possible extensions to Ventnor & Newport also relieving congestion to and from Ryde. Getting on a train from Newport to Ryde then over the Solent and commute up to Waterloo could be attractive.
But then the 483s weren't always in red livery, initially they were in NSE livery, while their predecessors had various BR liveries, culminating in them also being painted in NSE livery, presumably the oldest vehicles to ever wear it!
 
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Journeyman

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But then the 483s weren't always in red livery, initially they were in NSE livery, while their predecessors had various BR liveries, culminating in them also being painted in NSE livery, presumably the oldest vehicles to ever wear it!

Yeah - it really is about time we stopped treating Island Line like some sort of whimsical heritage afterthought, and properly integrated it back with the rest of the railway. I welcome the modern branding - it sends a positive message after years of the line crumbling away and facing an uncertain future.
 

jopsuk

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But then the 483s weren't always in red livery, initially they were in NSE livery, while their predecessors had various BR liveries, culminating in them also being painted in NSE livery, presumably the oldest vehicles to ever wear it!
Surprisingly, only the oldest by a couple of years, as the class 487s (built in 1940) wore it.
 

hermit

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Surprisingly, only the oldest by a couple of years, as the class 487s (built in 1940) wore it.
In between the NSE livery and the LT red came the awful dinosaur livery. A real low point, making the railway look like something out of a theme park.
I think the new livery is suitably dignified and very attractive. But no doubt in 20 years time some branding whizz-kid will suggest the stock is repainted to give the authentic District Line experience.
 

DelW

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But then the 483s weren't always in red livery, initially they were in NSE livery, while their predecessors had various BR liveries, culminating in them also being painted in NSE livery, presumably the oldest vehicles to ever wear it!

Surprisingly, only the oldest by a couple of years, as the class 487s (built in 1940) wore it.
I think Mikey C was referring to the previous "standard stock", some vehicles of which were painted into NSE colours at the end of their careers.

According to "Tube trains on the Isle of Wight" by Brian Hardy, the standard stock cars taken to the Island were built in various batches between 1923 and 1934. At least one of the 1925 cars received NSE livery, as shown in a photo on p55.

It would be possible (but time consuming) to track the various cars through their recorded livery changes to see if any 1923 cars survived long enough to get NSE colours.
 

Mikey C

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I think Mikey C was referring to the previous "standard stock", some vehicles of which were painted into NSE colours at the end of their careers.

According to "Tube trains on the Isle of Wight" by Brian Hardy, the standard stock cars taken to the Island were built in various batches between 1923 and 1934. At least one of the 1925 cars received NSE livery, as shown in a photo on p55.

It would be possible (but time consuming) to track the various cars through their recorded livery changes to see if any 1923 cars survived long enough to get NSE colours.
Correct, (photos from Wikipedia) seeing a 1920s design in NSE livery is quite amusing! The 483s which followed looked a lot more modern

 

Peter Sarf

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Correct, (photos from Wikipedia) seeing a 1920s design in NSE livery is quite amusing! The 483s which followed looked a lot more modern

Nice pictures. I remember going to get the 485s in about 1976 on a merrymaker. Now the front of that 485 gives us the answer to the brand name conundrum.

Interesting that the horizontal lines do not sweep upwards at the cab end like on (all ?) other NSE liveries. Very Eurostar-esque having those grilles up high indicating traction equipment concentrated in one vehicle !.
 

Speed43125

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Nice pictures. I remember going to get the 485s in about 1976 on a merrymaker. Now the front of that 485 gives us the answer to the brand name conundrum.

Interesting that the horizontal lines do not sweep upwards at the cab end like on (all ?) other NSE liveries. Very Eurostar-esque having those grilles up high indicating traction equipment concentrated in one vehicle !.
If this forum had been around when the 483s were brought in, it'd have been up in arms over the replacement of more traditional rolling stock with trains with underfloor 'engines'!
 

3141

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Correct, (photos from Wikipedia) seeing a 1920s design in NSE livery is quite amusing! The 483s which followed looked a lot more modern


To be pedantic, I think the first of those two photos is a 1931 stock or 1934 stock motor car. But somebody may be even more pedantic and point out that a car built in 1931 was probably designed in the 1920s.
 

superalbs

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To be pedantic, I think the first of those two photos is a 1931 stock or 1934 stock motor car. But somebody may be even more pedantic and point out that a car built in 1931 was probably designed in the 1920s.
I always thought the 485/486s looked relatively modern, must be the livery. What did they look like inside?
 
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I always thought the 485/486s looked relatively modern, must be the livery. What did they look like inside?
Here's one


and another...

Cab shot -


Anyway, let's get back to 484s before moderators get angry! :D
 
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Cowley

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Rick1984

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Here's one


and another...

Cab shot -


Anyway, let's get back to 484s before moderators get angry! :D
Those two interiors are quite different. The second one the seat pattern looks like 1980's style you might find in D stock, Glasgow Subway etc
 

Mikey C

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To be pedantic, I think the first of those two photos is a 1931 stock or 1934 stock motor car. But somebody may be even more pedantic and point out that a car built in 1931 was probably designed in the 1920s.
Hence I said 1920s design, rather than a 1920s built train ;)

Cab shot -


Anyway, let's get back to 484s before moderators get angry! :D
That cab seat has late 1970s LT moquette (as used in the D78s and 83, and buses like the Ms and Ts)!
 

lttgroup

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Multiple locations across former NSE territory!
Here seems like the best place...

With class 483 withdrawals a little over a month away, the London Transport Traction Group are delighted to announce that this evening we were officially informed by South Western Railway that we have successfully secured a Class 483 unit for preservation. A representative from South Western Railway told us;

"I can confirm that you will have a unit for preservation. I can’t confirm which unit yet as the preservation committee have not given me a final answer but it is highly likely to be 483006 and if it is not then it will be 483008 (both of which are currently operational and in service).

In terms of timing – I expect we will be in a position to release the unit for collection around the end of the line closure in March
."

This is truly wonderful news, but also represents only the first step in our journey that we hope will soon see a class 483 unit, cosmetically restored to London Transport condition, running on the Epping Ongar Railway under its own power and visiting galas around the country, taking a tube train where none has ever gone before and introducing the joy of the '38 stock to new audiences.

To do this we require your help. Our pledge scheme has been very successful, but we still require support. Earlier this week we opened up membership and donation options, which may be found on our website - www.lttractiongroup.co.uk

Although these are difficult times for many, we would greatly appreciate any assistance that you may be able to offer to our exciting and innovative project that has the potential to lead the way in electric railway preservation.

If you have any queries, please feel free to contact me by email; [email protected]
 

Julia

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I think Mikey C was referring to the previous "standard stock", some vehicles of which were painted into NSE colours at the end of their careers.

According to "Tube trains on the Isle of Wight" by Brian Hardy, the standard stock cars taken to the Island were built in various batches between 1923 and 1934. At least one of the 1925 cars received NSE livery, as shown in a photo on p55.

It would be possible (but time consuming) to track the various cars through their recorded livery changes to see if any 1923 cars survived long enough to get NSE colours.

At least one did; S49, a trailer in unit 046 - one of the ones which returned to the mainland in 1990 for ongoing preservation. If I remember rightly, the 1923 cars that made it to the island were all trailers built by Cammell-Laird, and were odd in having central door pillars?
 

DelW

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At least one did; S49, a trailer in unit 046 - one of the ones which returned to the mainland in 1990 for ongoing preservation. If I remember rightly, the 1923 cars that made it to the island were all trailers built by Cammell-Laird, and were odd in having central door pillars?
Thanks for the info'. I can't see a mention of door pillars (either present or absent), but otherwise Brian Hardy's book confirms that S49S was a 1923 Cammell Laird trailer, receiving NSE livery on 13.09.1988, withdrawn 07.10*.1990, shipped back to the mainland on 02.10.1990, and described as "To LUL for Vintage Train project", leaving Fratton for LUL on 18.10.1990.

* I assume this is a typo', as it can't have been withdrawn after it went back to the mainland. Looking at dates for similar vehicles, I think it should have read: withdrawn 07.09.1990, which was also the withdrawal date for the two DMs going to LUL. All five cars for LUL were shipped off the island on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th of October.
 

3141

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It was only the earlier motor cars that had a door pillar; the trailers did not. I think this was because the double doorway was wider in the motor cars than in the trailers. Motor cars had just one set of passenger doors (the guard's door was manually operated and was locked when a guard was not present). The trailers had two sets of double doors.

In post #12 (and thanks very much for including them), BR has relocated the lights to the ceiling in the second picture. The first picture shows their original positions. The first picture is a 1931 stock car, and the second is 1934 stock. You can see the difference in the way the opening windows worked. There was another visible point of difference, but it's a very long time since I travelled on these trains on the Underground and I can't remember what it was. The windows on the 1938 stock worked in a similar way to those on the 1934 driving motor cars, but had an intermediate position.
 

Bow Fell

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What was the storage history of the 483’s?

001 and 003, I recall being stored around 2000? There was a very good article in Today’s Railways UK quite a few years ago, if anyone can dig it out?
 

WesternLancer

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Thanks for the info'. I can't see a mention of door pillars (either present or absent), but otherwise Brian Hardy's book confirms that S49S was a 1923 Cammell Laird trailer, receiving NSE livery on 13.09.1988, withdrawn 07.10*.1990, shipped back to the mainland on 02.10.1990, and described as "To LUL for Vintage Train project", leaving Fratton for LUL on 18.10.1990.

* I assume this is a typo', as it can't have been withdrawn after it went back to the mainland. Looking at dates for similar vehicles, I think it should have read: withdrawn 07.09.1990, which was also the withdrawal date for the two DMs going to LUL. All five cars for LUL were shipped off the island on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th of October.
Does the reference to the LUL vintage train project mean that some of these ex BR cars that served on the island are preserved and still exist?
 

DelW

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Does the reference to the LUL vintage train project mean that some of these ex BR cars that served on the island are preserved and still exist?
That reference came from a book published in 2003, so it doesn't help with progress since then. What follows is a summary of information up till then.

It says that the 'preserved' set of 5 vehicles ran under its own power from Fratton to Wimbledon depot on 18.10.1990, and was then hauled by battery locos to Morden for an open weekend in early November. After that they were stored at various underground depots, before moving to Acton Works in November 1991.

Two of the five (49 and 27, both trailers) were allocated to the LT museum stock, and were taken to their storage depot at Ealing Common in 1999. The other three (2, 7 & 44, two DMs and a trailer) remained in LUL ownership at Acton, along with some other standard stock vehicles.

It seems that the LT museum was intending to restore its two vehicles, but almost certainly only for static display, but that in 2002-3 LUL was proposing to scrap all its pre-1938 stock, being the three ex-IoW cars and the other vehicles which had survived in Underground use.

A quick look just now through the LT museum web-site only brings up details of the well known 1938 stock train, so I don't know what may have happened to the standard stock. Maybe someone who has visited a museum open day at the depot may know more?

(Edits) having now found the right page of the museum web site, the two ex-IoW cars are pictured in storage:
Railway vehicle; LER 1923-Standard tube stock trailer car No. 846, 1923 | London Transport Museum (ltmuseum.co.uk)
Railway vehicle; LER 1925-Standard tube stock control trailer D end No. 1789, 1925-1926 | London Transport Museum (ltmuseum.co.uk)
 
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WesternLancer

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That reference came from a book published in 2003, so it doesn't help with progress since then. What follows is a summary of information up till then.

It says that the 'preserved' set of 5 vehicles ran under its own power from Fratton to Wimbledon depot on 18.10.1990, and was then hauled by battery locos to Morden for an open weekend in early November. After that they were stored at various underground depots, before moving to Acton Works in November 1991.

Two of the five (49 and 27, both trailers) were allocated to the LT museum stock, and were taken to their storage depot at Ealing Common in 1999. The other three (2, 7 & 44, two DMs and a trailer) remained in LUL ownership at Acton, along with some other standard stock vehicles.

It seems that the LT museum was intending to restore its two vehicles, but almost certainly only for static display, but that in 2002-3 LUL was proposing to scrap all its pre-1938 stock, being the three ex-IoW cars and the other vehicles which had survived in Underground use.

A quick look just now through the LT museum web-site only brings up details of the well known 1938 stock train, so I don't know what may have happened to the standard stock. Maybe someone who has visited a museum open day at the depot may know more?
Thanks for added info DelW - would seem a shame that having gone to the trouble of rescuing 1920s era stock from the Island they didn't retain them - common views of the depot like this below show cars from a similar era and I wonder if that is one in NSE paint 3 away from the camera - but that is a pic from 2004

 

DelW

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Thanks for added info DelW - would seem a shame that having gone to the trouble of rescuing 1920s era stock from the Island they didn't retain them - common views of the depot like this below show cars from a similar era and I wonder if that is one in NSE paint 3 away from the camera - but that is a pic from 2004

No problem, I've since found some photos on the museum website showing the IoW cars have survived, and added links to them to my earlier post.
 

WesternLancer

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No problem, I've since found some photos on the museum website showing the IoW cars have survived, and added links to them to my earlier post.
Thanks for the added links. Interesting to see those.
 

DelW

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Thanks for the added links. Interesting to see those.
It would be nice if the museum could repaint the 1923 car fully into NSE livery for its centenary, as surely the first vehicle to be both 100 years old and have worn that livery in normal service :D
 

WesternLancer

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It would be nice if the museum could repaint the 1923 car fully into NSE livery for its centenary, as surely the first vehicle to be both 100 years old and have worn that livery in normal service :D
They might make it for the centenary of NSE.... :lol:

I realise practical problems but it occurs to me that there is a place for the ex LT stock at the IoW steam line (tho obv the clue is in the name) . A superb preserved line in my view, I would think that now for a majority of islanders the 1923 and 1938 stock are the trains they will have been familiar with and fewer, older, residents will now recall the ex steam hauled stock from when it was in daily service pre 1967ish.
Mind you I do enjoy a ride in their superbly restored rolling stock.
 

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