Class 503 disposal

[SERA01UK]

Is there any idea of the amount of money that would need to be raised?

To just move 28690 to Llynclys is a shortfall of about £400

To restore it is another matter altogether and the vehicle will need a full assessment.

 

[Tony2]

Just passed Cockshute yard, all 3 cars are still there. Looks like some low loader activity, will update later

RIP to the 503 (although half of this one is getting saved).

29289 is at the west end of the site next to the road bridge. The other 2 cars are at the extreme east end. Easily visible from passing trains between Longport and Stoke.

Got a reply this afternoon from the cab yard team:

Hi Tony,
The first car is going tomorrow and 29289 will follow the end of next week, probably Friday 15th. They are moving to Stafford so not too far.

Cheers

rich

 

[CaramellDansen]

If anyone would be willing to donate to this move it would help enormously, please either message the page or use the PayPal giving link below.

Isn't it HETT's favouritism of the 4-SUB that let to this situation with the 503?? I'm sure plenty of people who love the 503 donated, just for that money to go towards an unrelated unit and towards the 503's destruction.
Why should we trust them to look after it now, after all they've done - or rather, how little they've done?

 

[43096]

Isn't it HETT's favouritism of the 4-SUB that let to this situation with the 503?? I'm sure plenty of people who love the 503 donated, just for that money to go towards an unrelated unit and towards the 503's destruction.
Why should we trust them to look after it now, after all they've done - or rather, how little they've done?

I would suggest you go back and read this thread, particularly this post: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-503-disposal.262678/post-6635958

There seems to be rather a lot of claim and counter claim about it. Bottom line is there's been a lot of hot air about saving the 503. Hot air does not pay the bills, and there appears to have been a distinct lack of people prepared to do that for the 503. Which is why the situation is as it is.

 

[SERA01UK]

Isn't it HETT's favouritism of the 4-SUB that let to this situation with the 503?? I'm sure plenty of people who love the 503 donated, just for that money to go towards an unrelated unit and towards the 503's destruction.
Why should we trust them to look after it now, after all they've done - or rather, how little they've done?

That’s nonsense.

Both units went to Margate with a clean slate, the projects started from scratch. HETT was created for the purpose of owning these two units.

If there are plenty of people who love the 503 they certainly did not donate to the project unfortunately, the number of supporters directly attributable to it never reached double figures.

 

[CaramellDansen]

That’s nonsense.

Both units went to Margate with a clean slate, the projects started from scratch. HETT was created for the purpose of owning these two units.

If there are plenty of people who love the 503 they certainly did not donate to the project unfortunately, the number of supporters directly attributable to it never reached double figures.

I'd believe that if there were two donation buttons. There was not. There was one donation pool, from which all of the money seems to have flowed into the 4-SUB.
If you can prove to me there was some way of reserving your donation specifically and explicitly for the 503, I'll retract my comment.

 

[SERA01UK]

I'd believe that if there were two donation buttons. There was not. There was one donation pool, from which all of the money seems to have flowed into the 4-SUB.
If you can prove to me there was some way of reserving your donation specifically and explicitly for the 503, I'll retract my comment.

You’ll struggle to find a charity that has separate donate buttons for any aspect of its work, some of the very big ones have a ‘sponsor this or that scheme’ but they are far, far larger than HETT and have paid staff and budgets that run into the millions.

HETT had one monthly expenditure which was the cost of storage at Margate (covering both units - one invoice with no split) and everything it earned via 750 Supply went to cover that - it never fully reached the £750 amount required each month. No income from this was channeled to the SUB in preference as there was a separate group (The 4-SUB Association) set up to raise that. 750 Supply was just about paying the day to day bills of storage, as previously mentioned the number of 503 supporters who signed up for this accounted for less than 10% of the income.

As a registered charity HETT’s accounts a matter of public record and reports for each financial year are available using the search feature on the Charity Commision website.

I appreciate that the loss of these vehicles has caused upset but if you’re looking for a bad guy to blame you won’t find one here. It’s only because of me that we’re able to have this conversation, the unit owes its existence beyond 1996 to the work I did to keep it from the scrap man. But after that time even I had to admit it was a lot cause and reduce the project in size and scope to one that ‘might’ be achievable.

 

[WesternLancer]

I appreciate that the loss of these vehicles has caused upset but if you’re looking for a bad guy to blame you won’t find one here. It’s only because of me that we’re able to have this conversation, the unit owes its existence beyond 1996 to the work I did to keep it from the scrap man. But after that time even I had to admit it was a lot cause and reduce the project in size and scope to one that ‘might’ be achievable.

Just to put on record thanks from me for your efforts in this regard - a daunting task to take on and anyone who makes any effort at all to achieve this should be saluted in my view.

You just can't win them all, but well done indeed for your efforts.

 

[yoyothehobo]

You’ll struggle to find a charity that has separate donate buttons for any aspect of its work, some of the very big ones have a ‘sponsor this or that scheme’ but they are far, far larger than HETT and have paid staff and budgets that run into the millions.

HETT had one monthly expenditure which was the cost of storage at Margate (covering both units - one invoice with no split) and everything it earned via 750 Supply went to cover that - it never fully reached the £750 amount required each month. No income from this was channeled to the SUB in preference as there was a separate group (The 4-SUB Association) set up to raise that. 750 Supply was just about paying the day to day bills of storage, as previously mentioned the number of 503 supporters who signed up for this accounted for less than 10% of the income.

As a registered charity HETT’s accounts a matter of public record and reports for each financial year are available using the search feature on the Charity Commision website.

I appreciate that the loss of these vehicles has caused upset but if you’re looking for a bad guy to blame you won’t find one here. It’s only because of me that we’re able to have this conversation, the unit owes its existence beyond 1996 to the work I did to keep it from the scrap man. But after that time even I had to admit it was a lot cause and reduce the project in size and scope to one that ‘might’ be achievable.

Big effort there, i guess without it, it would already be well in the scrap heap.

 

[8A Rail]

That’s nonsense.

Both units went to Margate with a clean slate, the projects started from scratch. HETT was created for the purpose of owning these two units.

If there are plenty of people who love the 503 they certainly did not donate to the project unfortunately, the number of supporters directly attributable to it never reached double figures.

I accept that HETT was attempting to safe guard the Class 503 unit when first rescued which is an honourable intention but sadly not for want of trying in some quarters, it has ultimately backfired on HETT, no other way of putting it. You got to accept by taking the Class 503 further away again (Coventry was bad enough) from its true home, was going to make much harder to generate any interest in it, as after all you are a Southern based group with majority of members only interested in the 4-SUB which is natural and understandable. That in itself whether you realise that or not, provide a difficult barrier to over come, and being truthful you were never ever going to generate enough interest / support the Class 503 unit from wider afield especially from 'up north'. The reality that any people that may of been interested in it are not going support a possible project hundreds of miles away that gave the impression that the 4-SUB was their priority (again understandable). As far as I am aware, there was no way of knowing if any donations / subscriptions which were for the Class 503 were kept separate or put into a general pot, we only had HETT officers word for it unfortunately but comes back to the way it was perceived / impression of HETT in general. Sorry.

May be looking back at the beginning of HETT and only you or the original members of HETT would know, were any options attempted to relocate the Class 503 unit up north before making the decision to take it further south? I don't think anyone knows? I think had the Class 503 headed north at the time, then I think it would of generated far more interest and support accordingly, along with may be working parties too no matter how far fetched that may of been.

Again I accept that HETT had very honourable intentions to at least safe guard the Class 503 for the future somehow, hoping against hope that something would happen in a positive way but ultimately, you became the custodians of a Unit that ultimately was only going in one direction only. In hindsight had you known this, I think you may have made a different decision when setting up HETT. One wrong decision for certain, was taking the Unit further south even if there may of been valid reasons to do so.

As for the current situation, I think you had no choice but to take the decision to scrap most of the complete Unit as clearly no support of any description was forthcoming. The fact for now, you have kept the Driving Motor Coach and moving it to Shropshire is commendable, again hoping something will happen but again there is no obvious plan in actually what is going to happen to it in time. Again HETT is based in the south and in time, you will forget about it and prioritise the 4-SUB (again understandable) but are you just delaying the enviable to this vehicle especially it remains outside with some tarpaulin's over it? One thing the Driving Motor Car has not got is time sadly and even you must agree there? Is the current situation spending good money after bad?

Finally I do wish to be proved wrong with some of my future thoughts but I cannot help feeling that HETT no matter how commendable your intentions are in attempting to safeguard the Driving Motor Car and hoping that something will happen! You have mention that there are a few supporters of the Class 503 and they have made a monetary commitment of some sort, may be they set up an independent group separate from HETT (and let the DM Car go) and see were that leads, they attempt to promote the project in a different way and may be get the DM Car further north in consequence? However, is that HETT intentions anyway, I and others don't know at this stage.

From a personal perspective and I am sure you may be curious, why I have not offer any (monetary) support which is a fair question. Simply the Unit was down south where I would never see it, HETT sort made it known, their priority was the 4 Sub (again understandable) and any donations to the HETT, it was again it seemed to be going into one pot of funds with a small percentage to offset the storage of the Class 503 unit. The consequence of this it became obvious, there was never going to be enough money even to consider moving the Unit up north even IF accommodation could be located. It was money going into a bottomless pit! The other thing that influence me, I am of a generation who was brought up on both the Class 502 and 503 units and now consider my self as part of the older mature generation where my priorities and activities are elsewhere and spending any time on a project long past its sell by date is not appealing anymore (I am member of the Friends of the Class 502 group). May be that is the real reason for lack of interest in the Class 503, it is past it sell by date to the older generation and the younger generation have moved on to pasture's new such as the preservation of Class 507 unit (507001)?

Anyway, enough said and I wish you as well as HETT good luck in your future endeavours and no doubt you have learnt a few lessons along the way with the Class 503 episode.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I accept that HETT was attempting to safe guard the Class 503 unit when first rescued which is an honourable intention but sadly not for want of trying in some quarters, it has ultimately backfired on HETT, no other way of putting it. You got to accept by taking the Class 503 further away again (Coventry was bad enough) from its true home, was going to make much harder to generate any interest in it, as after all you are a Southern based group with majority of members only interested in the 4-SUB which is natural and understandable. That in itself whether you realise that or not, provide a difficult barrier to over come, and being truthful you were never ever going to generate enough interest / support the Class 503 unit from wider afield especially from 'up north'. The reality that any people that may of been interested in it are not going support a possible project hundreds of miles away that gave the impression that the 4-SUB was their priority (again understandable). As far as I am aware, there was no way of knowing if any donations / subscriptions which were for the Class 503 were kept separate or put into a general pot, we only had HETT officers word for it unfortunately but comes back to the way it was perceived / impression of HETT in general. Sorry.

May be looking back at the beginning of HETT and only you or the original members of HETT would know, were any options attempted to relocate the Class 503 unit up north before making the decision to take it further south? I don't think anyone knows? I think had the Class 503 headed north at the time, then I think it would of generated far more interest and support accordingly, along with may be working parties too no matter how far fetched that may of been.

Again I accept that HETT had very honourable intentions to at least safe guard the Class 503 for the future somehow, hoping against hope that something would happen in a positive way but ultimately, you became the custodians of a Unit that ultimately was only going in one direction only. In hindsight had you known this, I think you may have made a different decision when setting up HETT. One wrong decision for certain, was taking the Unit further south even if there may of been valid reasons to do so.

As for the current situation, I think you had no choice but to take the decision to scrap most of the complete Unit as clearly no support of any description was forthcoming. The fact for now, you have kept the Driving Motor Coach and moving it to Shropshire is commendable, again hoping something will happen but again there is no obvious plan in actually what is going to happen to it in time. Again HETT is based in the south and in time, you will forget about it and prioritise the 4-SUB (again understandable) but are you just delaying the enviable to this vehicle especially it remains outside with some tarpaulin's over it? One thing the Driving Motor Car has not got is time sadly and even you must agree there? Is the current situation spending good money after bad?

Finally I do wish to be proved wrong with some of my future thoughts but I cannot help feeling that HETT no matter how commendable your intentions are in attempting to safeguard the Driving Motor Car and hoping that something will happen! You have mention that there are a few supporters of the Class 503 and they have made a monetary commitment of some sort, may be they set up an independent group separate from HETT (and let the DM Car go) and see were that leads, they attempt to promote the project in a different way and may be get the DM Car further north in consequence? However, is that HETT intentions anyway, I and others don't know at this stage.

From a personal perspective and I am sure you may be curious, why I have not offer any (monetary) support which is a fair question. Simply the Unit was down south where I would never see it, HETT sort made it known, their priority was the 4 Sub (again understandable) and any donations to the HETT, it was again it seemed to be going into one pot of funds with a small percentage to offset the storage of the Class 503 unit. The consequence of this it became obvious, there was never going to be enough money even to consider moving the Unit up north even IF accommodation could be located. It was money going into a bottomless pit! The other thing that influence me, I am of a generation who was brought up on both the Class 502 and 503 units and now consider my self as part of the older mature generation where my priorities and activities are elsewhere and spending any time on a project long past its sell by date is not appealing anymore (I am member of the Friends of the Class 502 group). May be that is the real reason for lack of interest in the Class 503, it is past it sell by date to the older generation and the younger generation have moved on to pasture's new such as the preservation of Class 507 unit (507001)?

Anyway, enough said and I wish you as well as HETT good luck in your future endeavours and no doubt you have learnt a few lessons along the way with the Class 503 episode.

Lets be honest, from reading into it, it doesnt look like people were jumping out of the woodwork with their chequebook to find a place for it to go just to be stored, so any restoration project is realistically doomed.

If it hadnt been taken on by the people who have had it for the last 30 years, would we be even having this discussion or would it be long in a thread titled "obscure BR classes that were never preserved"

 

[scrapthe503]

I accept that HETT was attempting to safe guard the Class 503 unit when first rescued which is an honourable intention but sadly not for want of trying in some quarters, it has ultimately backfired on HETT, no other way of putting it. You got to accept by taking the Class 503 further away again (Coventry was bad enough) from its true home, was going to make much harder to generate any interest in it, as after all you are a Southern based group with majority of members only interested in the 4-SUB which is natural and understandable. That in itself whether you realise that or not, provide a difficult barrier to over come, and being truthful you were never ever going to generate enough interest / support the Class 503 unit from wider afield especially from 'up north'. The reality that any people that may of been interested in it are not going support a possible project hundreds of miles away that gave the impression that the 4-SUB was their priority (again understandable). As far as I am aware, there was no way of knowing if any donations / subscriptions which were for the Class 503 were kept separate or put into a general pot, we only had HETT officers word for it unfortunately but comes back to the way it was perceived / impression of HETT in general. Sorry.

May be looking back at the beginning of HETT and only you or the original members of HETT would know, were any options attempted to relocate the Class 503 unit up north before making the decision to take it further south? I don't think anyone knows? I think had the Class 503 headed north at the time, then I think it would of generated far more interest and support accordingly, along with may be working parties too no matter how far fetched that may of been.

Again I accept that HETT had very honourable intentions to at least safe guard the Class 503 for the future somehow, hoping against hope that something would happen in a positive way but ultimately, you became the custodians of a Unit that ultimately was only going in one direction only. In hindsight had you known this, I think you may have made a different decision when setting up HETT. One wrong decision for certain, was taking the Unit further south even if there may of been valid reasons to do so.

As for the current situation, I think you had no choice but to take the decision to scrap most of the complete Unit as clearly no support of any description was forthcoming. The fact for now, you have kept the Driving Motor Coach and moving it to Shropshire is commendable, again hoping something will happen but again there is no obvious plan in actually what is going to happen to it in time. Again HETT is based in the south and in time, you will forget about it and prioritise the 4-SUB (again understandable) but are you just delaying the enviable to this vehicle especially it remains outside with some tarpaulin's over it? One thing the Driving Motor Car has not got is time sadly and even you must agree there? Is the current situation spending good money after bad?

Finally I do wish to be proved wrong with some of my future thoughts but I cannot help feeling that HETT no matter how commendable your intentions are in attempting to safeguard the Driving Motor Car and hoping that something will happen! You have mention that there are a few supporters of the Class 503 and they have made a monetary commitment of some sort, may be they set up an independent group separate from HETT (and let the DM Car go) and see were that leads, they attempt to promote the project in a different way and may be get the DM Car further north in consequence? However, is that HETT intentions anyway, I and others don't know at this stage.

From a personal perspective and I am sure you may be curious, why I have not offer any (monetary) support which is a fair question. Simply the Unit was down south where I would never see it, HETT sort made it known, their priority was the 4 Sub (again understandable) and any donations to the HETT, it was again it seemed to be going into one pot of funds with a small percentage to offset the storage of the Class 503 unit. The consequence of this it became obvious, there was never going to be enough money even to consider moving the Unit up north even IF accommodation could be located. It was money going into a bottomless pit! The other thing that influence me, I am of a generation who was brought up on both the Class 502 and 503 units and now consider my self as part of the older mature generation where my priorities and activities are elsewhere and spending any time on a project long past its sell by date is not appealing anymore (I am member of the Friends of the Class 502 group). May be that is the real reason for lack of interest in the Class 503, it is past it sell by date to the older generation and the younger generation have moved on to pasture's new such as the preservation of Class 507 unit (507001)?

Anyway, enough said and I wish you as well as HETT good luck in your future endeavours and no doubt you have learnt a few lessons along the way with the Class 503 episode.

So it needed to be moved to the north, to be closer to people who would remember it, except you follow up towards the end by saying the 503 is too old for anyone to remember it and they'll only care for a 507/508. Got it! Massive thanks.

As usual, loads of comments, no action or funds going ahead. So off the one remaining coach goes to store only then probably to have no love again. The internet is a fantastic place, and it's why so much stuff gets scrapped as even the people who preserve stuff get complete apathy as the only ones who seem to care.

Anyway. Scrap the lot.

 

[Ianigsy]

It’s natural that the SUB would attract more support given that the units operated pretty much every local route out of Waterloo and Victoria for nearly 40 years. The ability to work with a 33,73 or MLV opens the door to operating the unit (and getting some revenue in) without it needing to be able to draw power or propel itself.

The 503s had a limited sphere of operation by contrast - an area bounded by Kirkby, Garston, New Brighton, West Kirby and Rock Ferry.

 

[8A Rail]

So it needed to be moved to the north, to be closer to people who would remember it, except you follow up towards the end by saying the 503 is too old for anyone to remember it and they'll only care for a 507/508. Got it! Massive thanks.

As usual, loads of comments, no action or funds going ahead. So off the one remaining coach goes to store only then probably to have no love again. The internet is a fantastic place, and it's why so much stuff gets scrapped as even the people who preserve stuff get complete apathy as the only ones who seem to care.

Anyway. Scrap the lot.

I think you missed the point, the Class 503 problem commenced many years ago, even prior going to Coventry, it was then that something should of happened not now or in the last handful of years. It was too late by then. Given that spent all their lives in Merseyside, so you really expect people of any age from Scotland , Cornwall etc actually be interested in it when they have their own things nearer to home to consider? I would be surprised. The old adage, when something disappears out of sight, it gets forgotten and out of mind. That what has happened once in moved away from the Merseyside / North West.

As for caring about the Class 507 or even 508's more so than a Class 503, ain't that obvious to you why? There is a younger generation who solely only know those Units and therefore have more interest in them rather than Units there may never seen in real life or even ridden on them, therefore their time and efforts will according go in that direction to save a Class 507. Personally good luck to them too.

 

[scrapthe503]

I think you missed the point, the Class 503 problem commenced many years ago, even prior going to Coventry, it was then that something should of happened not now or in the last handful of years. It was too late by then. Given that spent all their lives in Merseyside, so you really expect people of any age from Scotland , Cornwall etc actually be interested in it when they have their own things nearer to home to consider? I would be surprised. The old adage, when something disappears out of sight, it gets forgotten and out of mind. That what has happened once in moved away from the Merseyside / North West.

As for caring about the Class 507 or even 508's more so than a Class 503, ain't that obvious to you why? There is a younger generation who solely only know those Units and therefore have more interest in them rather than Units there may never seen in real life or even ridden on them, therefore their time and efforts will according go in that direction to save a Class 507. Personally good luck to them too.

So as the people who did 503s die, we scrap it and save a 507. When people who knew 507s die, we scrap that preserved example and then preserve a 777. That argument is very good, I will remember it.

So the 4-SUB also needs to be scrapped, and replaced at Margate by a 465.

 

[8A Rail]

So as the people who did 503s die, we scrap it and save a 507. When people who knew 507s die, we scrap that preserved example and then preserve a 777. That argument is very good, I will remember it.

So the 4-SUB also needs to be scrapped, and replaced at Margate by a 465.

Interesting you have joined the forum today, made two posts on the forum within in this thread only, you have your name as 'Scrap the 503' and location as Cockshute. Here to set the bait, raise an argument or two may be? I said my peace, you think what ever you like, bring any thought or argument you wish but it will not change my perspective on things. I shall now move and continue to support the 'Friends of the Class 502'.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I think you missed the point, the Class 503 problem commenced many years ago, even prior going to Coventry, it was then that something should of happened not now or in the last handful of years. It was too late by then. Given that spent all their lives in Merseyside, so you really expect people of any age from Scotland , Cornwall etc actually be interested in it when they have their own things nearer to home to consider? I would be surprised. The old adage, when something disappears out of sight, it gets forgotten and out of mind. That what has happened once in moved away from the Merseyside / North West.

As for caring about the Class 507 or even 508's more so than a Class 503, ain't that obvious to you why? There is a younger generation who solely only know those Units and therefore have more interest in them rather than Units there may never seen in real life or even ridden on them, therefore their time and efforts will according go in that direction to save a Class 507. Personally good luck to them too.

Where would one preserve 507/8? Like the 503 it would be very unlikely ever to run again.Yes I would like to see a PEP derivative preserved but what do you do with it?

So the 4-SUB also needs to be scrapped, and replaced at Margate by a 465.

Now you are just being silly to stir up comments.

 

[Sun Chariot]

At the risk of going off topic, the scenario of the 503 (and the 506 before it) raises an interesting question about viability of preservation, in the decades ahead:

Apart from the commercial draw of events like Polar Express (LED-lit) & Thomas the Tank Engine, what will entice families to visit, spend their money and return time after time?

Stuffed 'n' mounted exhibits (EMUs, locos of whatever power sources) do not capture the excitement of the public. Surely they need to be engaged in the experience, if they are to part with their disposable income over the years to come?

"Scrap everything & let them play Microsoft Train Simulator" is too extreme a business model - but there will come the point where the future public aren't particular about what they are looking at, or sat in, or what is pulling it.

 

[8A Rail]

Where would one preserve 507/8? Like the 503 it would be very unlikely ever to run again.Yes I would like to see a PEP derivative preserved but what do you do with it?

This link may assist you with the Class 507 Unit (Class 507 Preservation Society) - https://www.class507.org.uk/ Although no recent updates, the Society currently have a location provisionally lined up for the storage of the complete Unit but has not been officially announced. In the meantime, there are no plans for it to operate again after withdrawal other than may be being hauled on a preserved line somewhere?

 

[bramling]

At the risk of going off topic, the scenario of the 503 (and the 506 before it) raises an interesting question about viability of preservation, in the decades ahead:

Apart from the commercial draw of events like Polar Express (LED-lit) & Thomas the Tank Engine, what will entice families to visit, spend their money and return time after time?

Stuffed 'n' mounted exhibits (EMUs, locos of whatever power sources) do not capture the excitement of the public. Surely they need to be engaged in the experience, if they are to part with their disposable income over the years to come?

"Scrap everything & let them play Microsoft Train Simulator" is too extreme a business model - but there will come the point where the future public aren't particular about what they are looking at, or sat in, or what is pulling it.

The population has already become rather basal over recent years, and like many things Covid seems to have accentuated this. The average non-enthusiast visitor to a preserved railway doesn’t seem particularly bothered by the stock, apart from that many people seem to - somewhat irrationally - feel short-changed if they don’t get some kind of steam train. It’s no different how many visitors to places like National Trust properties plainly aren’t particularly interested in what they’re actually visiting, it’s just somewhere to go.

This seems to be the root of the problem with unit preservation, it’s too specialist. That said, I don’t get why anyone *wouldn’t* want to travel in something like a CEP or VEP, especially if it could be restored to original condition. But the interest just doesn’t seem to be there, sadly. Even more so for more recent types. This is before we get to the problem of compatibility.

 

[43096]

This seems to be the root of the problem with unit preservation, it’s too specialist. That said, I don’t get why anyone *wouldn’t* want to travel in something like a CEP or VEP, especially if it could be restored to original condition. But the interest just doesn’t seem to be there, sadly. Even more so for more recent types. This is before we get to the problem of compatibility.

I fully understand why a CEP is a nice environment, but VEPs were always utterly rancid. The issues with them on preserved lines are that they are air-brake only and no heating supply without modification - TCs were better in that regard.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The root of the problem with unit preservation, it’s too specialist ... the interest just doesn’t seem to be there, sadly. Even more so for more recent types. This is before we get to the problem of compatibility.

I absolutely agree with your points.

 

[WesternLancer]

At the risk of going off topic, the scenario of the 503 (and the 506 before it) raises an interesting question about viability of preservation, in the decades ahead:

Apart from the commercial draw of events like Polar Express (LED-lit) & Thomas the Tank Engine, what will entice families to visit, spend their money and return time after time?

Stuffed 'n' mounted exhibits (EMUs, locos of whatever power sources) do not capture the excitement of the public. Surely they need to be engaged in the experience, if they are to part with their disposable income over the years to come?

"Scrap everything & let them play Microsoft Train Simulator" is too extreme a business model - but there will come the point where the future public aren't particular about what they are looking at, or sat in, or what is pulling it.

It is rather stuffed and mounted as an outcome, but this is surely why the role of national and local public funded museums is so important - to help people be able to see and experience aspects of the way of life their predecessors lived and experienced, and through that enhance knowledge.

There are of course 2 problems - without getting too political - and that is after years of austerity and local government funding problems museums are always low on the priority list for spending, and a long term 30+ year trend that such places should have elements of commercial activity about them - ie paying visitor numbers through doors.

Preservationists operating un funded museums and attractions have to have the element of commerciality about them, but national and municipal museums should be there for things that do not have the commercial attraction.

 

[CaramellDansen]

without getting too political

Why not? It's a political issue. Don't let the forum censors scare you from calling a spade a spade and addressing the issue as it is!

 

[Towers]

This seems to be the root of the problem with unit preservation, it’s too specialist. That said, I don’t get why anyone *wouldn’t* want to travel in something like a CEP or VEP, especially if it could be restored to original condition. But the interest just doesn’t seem to be there, sadly. Even more so for more recent types. This is before we get to the problem of compatibility.

In fairness, recent events involving a certain rather lovely Slammer at Waterloo demonstrated that there is certainly plenty of interest out there, and I believe the “last 455/313/etc” farewell outings all did pretty well, so there is certainly a fan base. The issue of course is how often you can fill a unit when running ‘normal’ railtours, and if it’s enough to sustain the finances. The Hastings unit does pretty well, albeit obviously with a much wider scope than an EMU, so there is some hope out there!

I could see a potential for things like the preserved VEP to make a living being towed as LHCS as well as outings under its own power, perhaps combined with LUL’s 4TC set to make it a full size train, and that would attract similar interest to the Hastings set I would think. Power door suburban stuff, of any age, is perhaps a more challenging prospect however!

 

[WesternLancer]

Why not? It's a political issue. Don't let the forum censors scare you from calling a spade a spade and addressing the issue as it is!

Indeed it is - I simply didn''t want to drag the thread on to territory about what might be the priority for public spending really.

 

[eldomtom2]

At the risk of going off topic, the scenario of the 503 (and the 506 before it) raises an interesting question about viability of preservation, in the decades ahead:

Apart from the commercial draw of events like Polar Express (LED-lit) & Thomas the Tank Engine, what will entice families to visit, spend their money and return time after time?

Stuffed 'n' mounted exhibits (EMUs, locos of whatever power sources) do not capture the excitement of the public. Surely they need to be engaged in the experience, if they are to part with their disposable income over the years to come?

Places like the NRM and the LTM seem be doing fine. We don't know if the general public would visit a proper EMU museum because one has never been built.

That said, if this is considered an issue I repeat my suggestion for overhead DC electrification...

 

[SERA01UK]

I’ve never been convinced that there is a sustainable market for main line operations for preserved EMU stock. The enthusiasts market is far too fickle, the farewell tours were one offs and can’t be repeated on any regular basis, plus TOCs have no scope to support the operation of heritage stock so a supportive FOC would have to adopt the operations. The unit’s power supply makes the area of operation limited, and is in an area that pathways are harder to obtain. The Hastings unit has none of these problems and has a depot that also functions as a highly successful engineering company supporting the operation, and no EMU group can boast this level of support.

That said, if this is considered an issue I repeat my suggestion for overhead DC electrification...

Given that most groups can’t afford decent undercover storage the installation of this is never going to be affordable.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Places like the NRM and the LTM seem be doing fine. We don't know if the general public would visit a proper EMU museum because one has never been built

I guess the closest current example, is the Acton Depot arm of LT Museum; but it only opens for selected special events and, it does not offer the wider experience, such as "general interest" elements, available at LTM Covent Garden.

NRM's York & Shildon sites are, in my view, non-comparable. Other than the 2BIL, what EMU is in the National Collection? And is the 2BIL even on show?

I remain unconvinced that a "multiple units biased" heritage site (working or static) will engage the general public.

 

[eldomtom2]

I remain unconvinced that a "multiple units biased" heritage site (working or static) will engage the general public.

I really don't see the difference between that and the London Transport Museum - sure the latter has buses but I doubt that makes much of a difference...