Class 503 disposal

[A0wen]

I’d like to think that at least one of everything could have been preserved. Wishful thinking I know ,but if only someone had thought to buy one of the early diesels instead of yet another 8F. Instead we have multiples of several classes but none of others. Many DMUs look very similar but loads have preserved.

However the fundamental difference between DMUs and EMUs is one are a viable prospect for pretty much any Heritage Railway to use - whereas the other isn't.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Many DMUs look very similar but loads have preserved.

DMUs provide heritage railways with a solution in the same way to that needed by British Railways:
- Self-propelled: no need to build and maintain an expensive additional infrastructure.
- Flexibility: cost-effectively adapt to meet varying passenger demand; e.g. 2 car unit in low season, 4+ cars in peak.
- In-service availability: relatively simple to maintain & repair. No need for expensive specialist equipment, nor computer diagnostics.

 

[SERA01UK]

I’d like to think that at least one of everything could have been preserved. Wishful thinking I know ,but if only someone had thought to buy one of the early diesels instead of yet another 8F. Instead we have multiples of several classes but none of others. Many DMUs look very similar but loads have preserved.

People will spend their money on what interests them. There is no obligation on anybody to complete an imaginary tick list of preserving one of everything; and that is collecting not preservation.

The 503 is a victim of consequences, in this case the consequence of inaction. Fair warning was given, the warning wasn’t heeded or the item wasn’t considered important enough, or it was just ‘too difficult’ to find a resolution for. End result is what is happening right now.

 

[Ashley Hill]

People will spend their money on what interests them.

And when they run out of money things get either sold on or dumped in the linear line of "long term restoration" projects. At least a DMBS has been hopefully saved.

 

[SERA01UK]

And when they run out of money things get either sold on or dumped in the linear line of "long term restoration" projects. At least a DMBS has been hopefully saved.

Due to move to Llynclys this week. It’s got a ten year storage agreement, will be reviewed in five years and if it is no longer viable then we go through this process again. Would be nice if we could afford decent covering for it, when it was sheeted at Coventry there was no noticeable deterioration, it was only when the covers came off so it could be opened for visitors at the open days that it started to suffer.

 

[CBlue]

Reading this thread just reminds me of the following:

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody’s job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn’t do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have.

 

[eldomtom2]

Demonstrably, EMU preservation isn't it.

Why assume that this is an unchangeable fact of the universe?

Much as I'd genuinely love to see a maroon AM9 / blue AM3 operating upon the main line or a dedicated heritage railway, the sad reality is that the scale of investment, versus the RoI, just doesn’t add up.

Somehow tramway museums manage it...

 

[bluegoblin7]

Somehow tramway museums manage it...

Barely. Three museum lines have succumbed over the last few years (Black Country, Summerlee and Birkenhead) and all of those remain have had numerous challenges with their overhead, particularly around competence verification and safe systems of work. Indeed, Crich Tramway Village was subjected to an ORR Prohibition Notice in 2022 because of the state of the overhead, and continues to have challenges in maintaining and operating trams across the whole line.

There's also a significant difference between designing, maintaining and operating a ~550vDC tramway overhead and a 25kvAC mainline overhead.

 

[SERA01UK]

Barely. Three museum lines have succumbed over the last few years (Black Country, Summerlee and Birkenhead) and all of those remain have had numerous challenges with their overhead, particularly around competence verification and safe systems of work. Indeed, Crich Tramway Village was subjected to an ORR Prohibition Notice in 2022 because of the state of the overhead, and continues to have challenges in maintaining and operating trams across the whole line.

There's also a significant difference between designing, maintaining and operating a ~550vDC tramway overhead and a 25kvAC mainline overhead.

Quite, there isn’t reallly a comparison to be made between museum tramway OHLE and that required for a mainline train that needs more current. It’s like comparing Volks third rail to that of the Southern electric.

 

[Mothball]

Why assume that this is an unchangeable fact of the universe?

Somehow tramway museums manage it...

From someone heavily involved in operating a tramway museum for nearly 15 years, the two aren't comparable. As others have stated 3 museums are currently closed and those that remain open are feeling the pressure from recent interest by the regulatory bodies.

 

[eldomtom2]

There's also a significant difference between designing, maintaining and operating a ~550vDC tramway overhead and a 25kvAC mainline overhead.

I am proposing overhead DC, not overhead AC.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I am proposing overhead DC, not overhead AC.

And remind me which UK EMUs will use it?
The ones I know of, were all converted to AC operation during their working lives

 

[eldomtom2]

And remind me which UK EMUs will use it?

Ones converted to overhead DC operation.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Ones converted to overhead DC operation.

And the cost of installing and maintaining DC overhead infra and substations, plus the cost of the structural and electrical conversions needed to every item intended to use that? How does that cost compare to AC infra?

 

[eldomtom2]

And the cost of installing and maintaining DC overhead infra and substations, plus the cost of the structural and electrical conversions needed to every item intended to use that? How does that cost compare to AC infra?

The cost compares favourably when one considers that AC electrification is pretty much universally considered impossible for heritage railways.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The cost compares favourably when one considers that AC electrification is pretty much universally considered impossible for heritage railways.

Can you please add links to your sources of that stance?

I thought not

 

[43096]

Why assume that this is an unchangeable fact of the universe?

I didn't make any assumption. Just stated how it is.

The cost compares favourably when one considers that AC electrification is pretty much universally considered impossible for heritage railways.

And how is it being funded? Because as we have seen from this thread, EMU preservation survives on the smallest of scraps financially. An electrification scheme is just an impossible dream.

 

[SERA01UK]

‘Retained’ Class 503 DMBS M28690M has arrived at Llynclys today and has been unloaded. Photos courtesy of Cambrian Heritage Railways.

Donations are still invited to help pay the cost of moving this vehicle the length of the country.

paypal.com/gb/fundraiser/charity/3714281

 

[eldomtom2]

Can you please add links to your sources of that stance?

I thought not

There are, as we have previously established, DC electrified heritage railways both in the UK and abroad. There are no AC electrified heritage railways anywhere, as far as I aware.

I didn't make any assumption. Just stated how it is.

It's a logical fallacy to assume that how things are are how they will always be.

And how is it being funded? Because as we have seen from this thread, EMU preservation survives on the smallest of scraps financially. An electrification scheme is just an impossible dream.

The point I am making is that it is likely that part of the reason EMU preservation struggles is because it lacks the interest of actually operating stuff that steam and diesel preservation has.

 

[The_Train]

Anybody got any confirmation of what happened to the other 2 carriages please

 

[scrapthe503]

Anybody got any confirmation of what happened to the other 2 carriages please

Two carriages to scrap.

 

[eldomtom2]

Two carriages to scrap.

But note that cab of one has been removed and will be preserved.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Ones converted to overhead DC operation.

There are, as we have previously established, DC electrified heritage railways both in the UK and abroad. There are no AC electrified heritage railways anywhere, as far as I aware.

Where in the UK can I find an overhead DC electric railway (apart from tramways)? How do you propose converting heritage DC stock to overhead?

 

[eldomtom2]

Where in the UK can I find an overhead DC electric railway (apart from tramways)?

Nowhere, but I don't see what your point is.

How do you propose converting heritage DC stock to overhead?

For stock that can run on third rail DC the solution already exists - installation of a trolley pole or pantograph, as has been done in at least one case in the US:

I do not know how practical this would be for AC-only stock, however.
Batteries are another option.

 

[Sun Chariot]

... part of the reason EMU preservation struggles is because it lacks the interest of actually operating stuff that steam and diesel preservation has.

Absolutely and I think many of us are agreed on that. It sadly doesn't alter the prohibitive size of capital investment and specialist skills needed to source, install, operate and safely maintain the infrastructure.
The NYC R28 stock, as your post points out, already had DC electrical equipment. Thus, easier to harness and utilise low voltage DC overhead supply.

Maybe an alternative option, is "translator" vehicles? Akin to how a cl. 419 MLV battery power enables erstwhile 750v DC third rail stock to operate "off the juice", albeit very slowly. It might, however, merely provide basic capability for braking, lighting and coupling - hardly the "EMU experience".

This page lists (and links to) every known European heritage railway entity. None has DC overhead infrastructure.
https://www.railserve.com/Tourist/World/Europe/
Your posts #161 vs #169 vs #174 seem contradictory?

I am proposing overhead DC, not overhead AC.

There are, as we have previously established, DC electrified heritage railways both in the UK and abroad.

[In reply to "where in the UK can I find an overhead DC electric railway?"] Nowhere, but I don't see what your point is.

 

[43096]

Absolutely and I think many of us are agreed on that. It sadly doesn't alter the prohibitive size of capital investment and specialist skills needed to source, install, operate and safely maintain the infrastructure.
Maybe an alternative option, is "translator" vehicles? Akin to how cl. 419 MLV battery power enables erstwhile 750v DC third rail stock to operate "off the juice".
However, it might do no more than just provide capability for braking, lighting and coupling; hardly the "EMU experience".

This page lists (and links to) every known European heritage entity. None seems to have AC or DC overhead infrastructure.
https://www.railserve.com/Tourist/World/Europe/

Your #169 comment contradicts your #174 comment:

That list looks nothing like a complete list of European heritage railways.

I have certainly travelled on an electrified preserved railway, the DVZO operation in Switzerland between Bauma and Bäretswil. Although it is around 12 years since I travelled on it, it does appear to still have live 15kV AC catenary.

 

[CaramellDansen]

your #169 vs #174 comments seem to be contradictory

"DC electrified heritage railways"
"overhead DC electric railway"
Notice the difference?

 

[1Q18]

"DC electrified heritage railways"
"overhead DC electric railway"
Notice the difference?

I’m not sure about ‘railways’… There’s the Volks, that‘s one. The Hythe Pier Railway, but despite the age of the stock it’s arguably not a heritage railway but part of a public transport system. Several heritage tramways, but they’re tramways and not railways per se.

 

[Towers]

Is/was there not a plan for one of the preserved Isle of Wight ‘38 Stock tube sets to be run under its own power from batteries somewhere? Did that progress at all?

 

[Sun Chariot]

"DC electrified heritage railways"
"overhead DC electric railway"
Notice the difference?

Can you please give me an example?
I do not know of any UK DC electrified heritage railway (not tramway or funicular), irrespective of wires or 3rd/4th rails.
The recent posts relate to heavy-rail (e.g. it runs on main line standard gauge) EMUs.
Posts #158, #159 and #160 have correctly explained why a tramways infrastructure is not comparable.

I have certainly travelled on an electrified preserved railway, the DVZO operation in Switzerland between Bauma and Bäretswil. Although it is around 12 years since I travelled on it, it does appear to still have live 15kV AC catenary.

Thanks for the insight. I did wonder whether Switzerland had an operating overhead heritage line.
You mention it's AC overhead infrastructure; and it disproves post #165's: "AC electrification is ... considered impossible for heritage railways."
We are yet to ascertain if any DC overheard electrified Europe heritage entity exists.

Via RMWeb, I'd found a global map of "DC vs AC vs None". It was not accurate for the UK; I couldn't vouch its accuracy for other countries.