Class 503 disposal

[1Q18]

Is/was there not a plan for one of the preserved Isle of Wight ‘38 Stock tube sets to be run under its own power from batteries somewhere? Did that progress at all?

That would be the London Transport Traction Group - I think ‘aspiration’ rather than ‘plan’ would be closer to the mark.

 

[birchesgreen]

Batteries is the only viable solution to get EMUs moving again in preservation (apart from main line use), there is a tram which has been converted to battery operation (on the Statfold Barn Railway) so it can be done. Just requires time and dosh of course like all things.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Batteries is the only viable solution to get EMUs moving again in preservation (apart from main line use), there is a tram which has been converted to battery operation (on the Statfold Barn Railway) so it can be done. Just requires time and dosh of course like all things.

And ironically it takes us back to something tried by British Railways when battery technology was far less "mature".

Battery Multiple Unit

The history of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs / railcars) in Britain.

www.railcar.co.uk

 

[SERA01UK]

I am confident there will be no attempt made to install electrification on any standard gauge heritage railway in the UK in my lifetime, the biggest driver of that is the prohibitive cost.

Battery traction already happens on standard guage heritage operations in very limited scope. It certainly offers the best chance for a vintage EMU to run under its own power and I was working on a paper about this very subject only yesterday. Won’t work for just any unit and there is a criteria that must be met IMO for suitable units to be considered.

 

[Vespa]

You can tow a generator to power the motors, I've seen trams and trolleybuses run on towed generators where there is no overhead wiring.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yeah there are ways to do it, and with recent battery tech developments i suspect a lot of it is a lot more available and affordable than it used to be. Putting up your own knitting i think is a pipe dream too far.

 

[WAO]

Electrification would only be applicable to a heritage railway for the same reasons as on the commercial railway; when there is the frequency and weight of traffic to warrant it, along with the availability of attractive rolling stock. One could erect a "dead" section of OLE or third rail for cosmetic purposes but moving even an EMU would be better by batteries.

The loss of most of the 503 is of course a tragedy but no blame can be laid at its last owners who have tried every avenue to save it. The public authorities and population of Merseyside must bear the responsibility for providing neither secure storage nor maintenance. They have a history in this respect with the loss of the Warship Museum and astoundingly of the City's World Heritage status. By contrast, Greater Manchester's authorities can of course boast of the East Lancashire Railway, enabled as a result of their judicious LA renewal planning.

The 503 was probably doomed when the Wirral LA retained a driving trailer for a failed cafe conversion and confirmed by the Coventry LA's hurried closing of the ERM without compensation.

WAO

 

[Class15]

Electrification would only be applicable to a heritage railway for the same reasons as on the commercial railway; when there is the frequency and weight of traffic to warrant it, along with the availability of attractive rolling stock. One could erect a "dead" section of OLE or third rail for cosmetic purposes but moving even an EMU would be better by batteries.

The loss of most of the 503 is of course a tragedy but no blame can be laid at its last owners who have tried every avenue to save it. The public authorities and population of Merseyside must bear the responsibility for providing neither secure storage nor maintenance. They have a history in this respect with the loss of the Warship Museum and astoundingly of the City's World Heritage status. By contrast, Greater Manchester's authorities can of course boast of the East Lancashire Railway, enabled as a result of their judicious LA renewal planning.

The 503 was probably doomed when the Wirral LA retained a driving trailer for a failed cafe conversion and confirmed by the Coventry LA's hurried closing of the ERM without compensation.

WAO

What does LA stand for please?

 

[43096]

The loss of most of the 503 is of course a tragedy but no blame can be laid at its last owners who have tried every avenue to save it. The public authorities and population of Merseyside must bear the responsibility for providing neither secure storage nor maintenance. They have a history in this respect with the loss of the Warship Museum and astoundingly of the City's World Heritage status. By contrast, Greater Manchester's authorities can of course boast of the East Lancashire Railway, enabled as a result of their judicious LA renewal planning.

A sense of perspective is needed. It isn't a tragedy in any way, shape or form. Gaza is a tragedy. A knackered old train going for scrap that very few gave a stuff about until the scrapping was announced, most definitely is not tragic.

 

[Class15]

Reading that link above says otherwise. The reality is that there has been next to no support (either practical or financial) for it. People can pontificate as much as they want but if they do actually nothing this is what happens.

A sense of perspective is needed. It isn't a tragedy in any way, shape or form. Gaza is a tragedy. A knackered old train going for scrap that very few gave a stuff about until the scrapping was announced, most definitely is not tragic.

You have hit the proverbial nail on the head there. The people who are angry about it being scrapped and are trying to blame the people who were trying to preserve the unit (unsuccessfully) were also the people who wouldn’t donate towards the project. I personally didn’t donate, but I’m not interested in the 503 and not particularly upset to see it go. If the 306 was at threat, for example, I would donate.

 

[Sun Chariot]

What does LA stand for please?

Local Authority

 

[Class15]

Local Authority

Thanks

 

[WAO]

A sense of perspective is needed. It isn't a tragedy in any way, shape or form. Gaza is a tragedy. A knackered old train going for scrap that very few gave a stuff about until the scrapping was announced, most definitely is not tragic.

Your perspective.
WAO

 

[Mountain Man]

Which is why I continue suggesting trying to find a way to make them not ornaments...

Write a large enough cheque.

The way is easy to find, just difficult to deliver

It's a logical fallacy to assume that how things are are how they will always be.

So by your own logic why bother preserving any railways at all? An asteroid might wipe out the earth tomorrow, just because today was ok, doesn't mean tomorrow will be.

 

[WSnook37025]

28690 has been delivered to the Cambrian Heritage line.
The other two cars, 29289 and 29720, are/were at Cockshute sidings awaiting forwarding for scrap

 

[M28361M]

The other two cars, 29289 and 29720, are/were at Cockshute sidings awaiting forwarding for scrap

"Were" is correct as I believe they have already been scrapped.

An update has been posted on the 503 Facebook page today:-

In the intervening years this unit has never attracted more than a dribble of support, resulting in no progress and two of the cars of the unit having to be disposed of. 28690 remains as the last chance for 503 preservation but it won’t happen without supporters.

The vehicle urgently needs income to put a decent cover over it, pay the monthly cost of storage and then build a pot of funds to be used for renovation work.

Can you take on a monthly contribution to give this vehicle the future it has thus far been denied? Your contributions are eligible for gift aid if you are a UK tax payer and all the forms you need to pledge your support for the 503 can be found here:

http://www.4sub4732.co.uk/downloads/hett/HETT503_PledgeForms.pdf

 

[Northerngirl]

What a load of rubbish, "we couldn't be bothered saving it, please give us more money"

 

[D365]

What a load of rubbish, "we couldn't be bothered saving it, please give us more money"

How do you propose that the storage of one, two or three dilapidated vehicles be maintained without money?

 

[LowLevel]

How do you propose that the storage of one, two or three dilapidated vehicles be maintained without money?

Ultimately preservation of railway vehicles requires people with time, skills and money in combination to be involved.

Small groups or individuals missing one of those 3 items (usually money) are doomed to fail no matter how noble the cause.

"We've acquired this wreck that's been falling to bits for years but we've got no money to store or work on it, please give to our GoFundMe" is an absolute hiding to nowhere and I wouldn't give a penny on principle.

The only groups I would ever give money to are those with means and a plan who need a little bit of additional help, or those who have been otherwise successful but blighted with bad luck (see Downpatrick flooding).

 

[The_Train]

What a load of rubbish, "we couldn't be bothered saving it, please give us more money"

I genuinely don't think I've seen many more disparaging and, quite frankly, disgusting comments about people who are willing to try and preserve something from our railway heritage. Had this group not taken a chance on preserving this unit, then it would have been scrapped a long time ago and anybody who is willing to at least give saving something a chance deserves a huge amount of credit no matter how the preservation plays out. The fact that they did take a chance on it would suggest differently to your claim of they "couldn't be bothered saving it".

Makes me wonder why anybody would want to even try with anything when they get this sort of reaction directed at them!

"We've acquired this wreck that's been falling to bits for years but we've got no money to store or work on it, please give to our GoFundMe" is an absolute hiding to nowhere and I wouldn't give a penny on principle.

I don't think it's a hiding to nowhere, I just think you need to have a realistic plan for what the funding will achieve so that people know their money is going in the right direction. I am sure most projects (that don't involve the NRM, a millionaire or a "celebrity") will require the generosity of others to help it to succeed and without that generosity in the past, a good amount of projects that now see locos and units running on heritage lines (or, indeed, the mainline) would never have got off the ground and the traction would have been scrapped well before it had a chance to succeed in preservation.

 

[LowLevel]

I genuinely don't think I've seen many more disparaging and, quite frankly, disgusting comments about people who are willing to try and preserve something from our railway heritage. Had this group not taken a chance on preserving this unit, then it would have been scrapped a long time ago and anybody who is willing to at least give saving something a chance deserves a huge amount of credit no matter how the preservation plays out. The fact that they did take a chance on it would suggest differently to your claim of they "couldn't be bothered saving it".

Makes me wonder why anybody would want to even try with anything when they get this sort of reaction directed at them!


I don't think it's a hiding to nowhere, I just think you need to have a realistic plan for what the funding will achieve so that people know their money is going in the right direction. I am sure most projects (that don't involve the NRM, a millionaire or a "celebrity") will require the generosity of others to help it to succeed and without that generosity in the past, a good amount of projects that now see locos and units running on heritage lines (or, indeed, the mainline) would never have got off the ground and the traction would have been scrapped well before it had a chance to succeed in preservation.

Most of the successful projects I've come across haven't had a totally derelict vehicle and effectively no money of their own as a starting point.

 

[eldomtom2]

Ultimately preservation of railway vehicles requires people with time, skills and money in combination to be involved.

Small groups or individuals missing one of those 3 items (usually money) are doomed to fail no matter how noble the cause.

"We've acquired this wreck that's been falling to bits for years but we've got no money to store or work on it, please give to our GoFundMe" is an absolute hiding to nowhere and I wouldn't give a penny on principle.

The only groups I would ever give money to are those with means and a plan who need a little bit of additional help, or those who have been otherwise successful but blighted with bad luck (see Downpatrick flooding).

I wonder what the outcome would be if the various EMU preservation groups came together to see if by pooling funds undercover storage could be obtained.

 

[SERA01UK]

.The only groups I would ever give money to are those with means and a plan who need a little bit of additional help, or those who have been otherwise successful but blighted with bad luck (see Downpatrick flooding).

This one sounds right up your street then, group has spent time and money restoring the vehicle and has secure tenure for its display and just need a little help to finish it off - https://gofund.me/d57b9cc0

 

[Northerngirl]

How do you propose that the storage of one, two or three dilapidated vehicles be maintained without money?

They have done the exact opposite though, taken the money and then let it rot anyway, Its such a shame

 

[WesternLancer]

They have done the exact opposite though, taken the money and then let it rot anyway, Its such a shame

How do you know the money they had didn't all get used up on basic storage fees that could not afford under cover? They might never have had any more money than that to do anything else.

 

[Sun Chariot]

They have done the exact opposite though, taken the money and then let it rot anyway, Its such a shame

Re-read the insight on post #97. It concurs with Western Lancer's comment above.

 

[SERA01UK]

They have done the exact opposite though, taken the money and then let it rot anyway, Its such a shame

In the last five and a half years HETT spent £18000 storing this unit undercover in an attempt to offer it the best home it has ever had in preservation after being cast aside by Wirral in 1996.

During that period donations in support of the project in respect of the 503 totalled just over £3000.

So where was this money to stop the rot?

That’s right, there wasn’t any. Hence why two thirds of the unit was disposed off as it became an unsustainable millstone.

 

[eldomtom2]

Part of the problem - and I've said this on other forums - is that the danger the unit was in wasn't made clear until it was too late.

 

[prod_pep]

Part of the problem - and I've said this on other forums - is that the danger the unit was in wasn't made clear until it was too late.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[37114]

Part of the problem - and I've said this on other forums - is that the danger the unit was in wasn't made clear until it was too late.

Playing Devil's advocate- Would it have made a difference? Say there was a press release saying "We need £10,000(example) in the next 3 months or it goes for scrap" no doubt there would be a flurry of people online saying "nooooo! We can't let this happen!", a few donations from people who "would like to do their bit" etc. The end result is a likely pot of £1.5k and the owners saying "We waited 3 months, we got hardly any money, we are out of pocket as we waited 2 months and the donations didn't cover the storage fees etc"...