Class 58

[badger1badger]

I saw the class being built in Doncaster at the 1984 works open day.

Are any left either running on main line or in preservation ?

Thanks

Paul

 

[BestWestern]

I saw the class being built in Doncaster at the 1984 works open day.

Are any left either running on main line or in preservation ?

Thanks

Paul

None on the mainline, most of them were dispatched to France and/or Spain to haul construction trains and can now mainly be found slowly rusting in the yard at Eastleigh I believe. Pretty certain there is a serious preservation group formed already, and one may possibly be earmarked for the national collection, not entirely sure about though.

 

[Boothby97]

One is preserved, 58016 at Barrow Hill, which is in the process of restoration.
A small number have been scrapped, but a high volume remain stored in France, and some in Spain.
The National Collection has designated 58050 for eventual preservation but this remains stored in Spain.
58002/008/017/037 are stored at Eastleigh depot (got to see them a couple of days back), 58012/023 at Toton, 58022 at Crewe DMD and 58048 at Crewe IEMD, but all ard heavily robbed of parts. But as had been mentioned none of operational in the UK.

 

[badger1badger]

Thanks guys - quite sad but I guess progress ..... ?

 

[Goatboy]

They didn't seem to last very long - 15-20 years or so seems a very short lifespan for a freight locomotive. What happened?

 

[badger1badger]

They didn't seem to last very long - 15-20 years or so seems a very short lifespan for a freight locomotive. What happened?

Yes it does seem a short life

Someone I think said they were too light ?

Can anyone expand on this ?

Paul

 

[D7666]

They didn't seem to last very long - 15-20 years or so seems a very short lifespan for a freight locomotive. What happened?

250 66s ?

170 coal mines in 1979, 3 in 2013 ?



--
Nick

 

[MK Tom]

That doesn't explain why the 56s and a number of 37s outlived them. Neither does it explain why they all ended up overseas and none have entered service with any other operators. I'm guessing the class had some kind of endemic problem that made them undesirable for some reason.

 

[BestWestern]

That doesn't explain why the 56s and a number of 37s outlived them. Neither does it explain why they all ended up overseas and none have entered service with any other operators. I'm guessing the class had some kind of endemic problem that made them undesirable for some reason.

I'd agree that it seems to come down mainly to EWS having decided it didn't really fancy patching up the BR loco fleet and instead flooding their operations with 66s - too many, in fact. But you can't really blame them, the existing fleet was unreliable and expensive to maintain. The reason that no 58s made it into second careers with other operators is presumably because EWS chose not to sell them? I would imagine that perhaps it was felt making a vast number of relatively modern locomotives available to competitors was not acceptable, presumably hence no Class 60s have been sold either. Ancient 37s, 47s etc still sell to the competition of course, but there will always be something of a limited pool of work for them, wheras if Freightliner for example got their hands on 30 or 40 scrap value 'bones' or 60s and tarted them up, they could go for a big fresh chunk of the market, using newbuild-quality traction obtained at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Bevan Price]

Ed Burkhardt & EWS obtained 250 Class 66s in anticipation of traffic growth. Unfortunately, it did not grow. The Class 66s are on hire, and EWS have to pay the rental whether or not they use them. This did not apply to Classes 47, 56, 58 or 60, which were all owned by EWS. So, when traffic declines, it was the EWS-owned locos that were taken out of use.

Even the 60s almost disappeared, and probably would all be in store if Class 66 had been able to manage satisfactorily on some of the heaviest coal & mineral services. However, steep gradients (e.g. on the line from Liverpool Bulk Terminal) caused difficulties when, for example, Class 66/0 tried to haul maximum loads (23 loaded HTA), especially in inclement weather.

 

[Beveridges]

58's were a very good engine and were withdrawn due to being surplus to requirements.

Freight traffic has not took off like passenger traffic did since privatisation.

I have never even seen a 58 working in my life. Being based in the North West, the "Bones" never came up here.

 

[RichmondCommu]

58's were a very good engine and were withdrawn due to being surplus to requirements.

Freight traffic has not took off like passenger traffic did since privatisation.

I have never even seen a 58 working in my life. Being based in the North West, the "Bones" never came up here.

As others have said their bread and butter were the Notts / Derbyshire coal mines (all the class 58's were allocated to Toton IIRC). Now there is nothing left

 

[43167]

I'd agree that it seems to come down mainly to EWS having decided it didn't really fancy patching up the BR loco fleet and instead flooding their operations with 66s - too many, in fact. But you can't really blame them, the existing fleet was unreliable and expensive to maintain. The reason that no 58s made it into second careers with other operators is presumably because EWS chose not to sell them? I would imagine that perhaps it was felt making a vast number of relatively modern locomotives available to competitors was not acceptable, presumably hence no Class 60s have been sold either. Ancient 37s, 47s etc still sell to the competition of course, but there will always be something of a limited pool of work for them, wheras if Freightliner for example got their hands on 30 or 40 scrap value 'bones' or 60s and tarted them up, they could go for a big fresh chunk of the market, using newbuild-quality traction obtained at a fraction of the cost.

Thats more or less hit the nail on the head with why none saw further use in this country. EWS then and still now with DBS with the song & dance they made with the NRM allowing WCRC to use 47798.

 

[Matt Taylor]

there are a number of class 58s behind Eastleigh works, they won't be going anywhere soon and will most likely be cut up on site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/8966809203/in/set-72157633954783402

 

[Boothby97]

there are a number of class 58s behind Eastleigh works, they won't be going anywhere soon and will most likely be cut up on site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40172673@N03/8966809203/in/set-72157633954783402

There at the back of Eastleigh Depot, 58002/008/017/037. They've been reunited with their bogies.
I believe it will be difficult to cut them up on site/lift them on the road transport there because the depot is practically next door to the runway of Southampton Airport, that's why they now have bogies again so they can be dragged the short distance elsewhere to then get scrapped/moved out by road

 

[yummy125]

I saw the class being built in Doncaster at the 1984 works open day.

Are any left either running on main line or in preservation ?

Thanks

Paul

I was at the open day as well, I also have the Waterloo - Doncaster railtour plaque "The Plant Invader" under my tv.

The only 58 which has been saved is 58 016 which is at Barrow Hill:

http://www.c58lg.co.uk

When I visited Barrow Hill last year on a Railtour I asked a few of the guys who look after the 58 if there are any plans to run 016 on preserved lines as this will create loads of interest.

58 001 & 58 050 should of not been sent out the country as they are both the prototype & the last loco built at Doncaster. Hope they can come back soon but i'm sure they will rust over the years in France / Spain & be scrapped, such a sad end to a short lived class.

Why was the 58's hated so much..?

 

[D365]

I don't think they were hated so much (nor did they have significant problems) as it was the EWS/DBS policies which killed them off in Britain... At least, as was intended, the type was exported; albeit in a roundabout way and not any units built for that purpose.

As HS2 is more or less supposed to be built to LGV standards, does that include the use of 58s as construction trains? Can't recall exactly what was used on HS1 but I remember shunters and things.

 

[Beveridges]

Why was the 58's hated so much..?

Keith Heller hated all the BR diesels and saw them all as very cost ineffective and underpowered compared to the phenomenal 66 which was cheap and could haul anything this country could throw at it.

When EWS was under Keith Heller all British locos had to go regardless. He wanted the total withdrawal of classes 08, 09, 37, 47, 56, 58 & 60... even if it meant giving traffic away.

Fortunately DB Schenker took over before he could complete his aim but he caused a lot of destruction during the time he was in power. The only survivors on the day Heller left was about three class 60's and a handful of 08's.

 

[Genocide]

They weren't very good - adhesion problems really.

Ironically they'd probably have been decent for intermodal work if the 1994 shake up had put a few of them in the Freightliner fold.

I do wonder, though, if the frames might not make a good base for a "genset" concept.

 

[D7666]

I thought the fundamental reason 56s lingered in traffic longer than 58s was because 56s already had a much wider traction knowledge - so overall were more useful especially when the whole lot returned to one single operator EWS after being split. 58s never had the near nationwide traction knowledge thats 56s came to have.

Also, wasn't it true that because of age, 56s had been through some major repair or first works overhaul, but 58s were just coming up to it when traffic dropped away.

As to their use overseas, if you are leasing traction, 50 locos for hire all dating from 1983-1987 locos is a better selling point than 50 more 1976-1983. OK 56s were hired too, but I'd be sure age is a good reason 58s were leased out as a near whole class.

--
Nick

 

[Boothby97]

I was at the open day as well, I also have the Waterloo - Doncaster railtour plaque "The Plant Invader" under my tv.

The only 58 which has been saved is 58 016 which is at Barrow Hill:

http://www.c58lg.co.uk

When I visited Barrow Hill last year on a Railtour I asked a few of the guys who look after the 58 if there are any plans to run 016 on preserved lines as this will create loads of interest.

58 001 & 58 050 should of not been sent out the country as they are both the prototype & the last loco built at Doncaster. Hope they can come back soon but i'm sure they will rust over the years in France / Spain & be scrapped, such a sad end to a short lived class.

58050 shouldn't be scrapped as its designated by the National Collection, so one day should return to the UK although that could be a long while yet.

 

[Beveridges]

They weren't very good - adhesion problems really.

Ironically they'd probably have been decent for intermodal work if the 1994 shake up had put a few of them in the Freightliner fold.

I do wonder, though, if the frames might not make a good base for a "genset" concept.

They had the power, 3300hp which is more than most other Type 5 locomotives.

Just for compairson,
56 - 3250hp
58 - 3300hp
60 - 3100hp
66 - 3200hp

It was not until the arrival of the Powerhaul locos when any type 5 had more power output than a 58.


Acceleration on any heavy train (if adhesion problems were not encountered) was said to be at least as good as any other Type 5 pre Powerhaul - if not better.

As for the adhesion problems, I believe they solved these with the traction control fitted to 58050. It could have been fitted to the rest of the fleet if they saw any long term future in them.

The traction equipment fitted on 58050 is the same SEPEX system as the one on the 60. This allowed 58050 to match the starting tractive effort of a 60.

The "Bones" were very reliable when they were maintained, regularly in the 95%+ category in the late BR days before EWS took over. It had the potential of being BR's most successful freight loco, instead of the 60.

The 58 was the most reliable type of traction on BR before privatisation.

The reason 56's outlived the 58's was more to do with the 58's being a much smaller fleet. EWS under Heller wanted to reduce the amount of different types of traction that they operated to save costs, so small fleets had to go first.

The info came from a 58 enthusiast that I know who really knows what he is on about.

 

[bagtipper]

they often on dragging new st to Nuneaton on sundays in the early 80s great trash hang out of mk2 air cons

 

[Beveridges]

Louder than a 47 ?

 

[D7666]

The "Bones" were very reliable when they were maintained, regularly in the 95%+ category in the late BR days before EWS took over.

Indeed.


When I've posted this on other forms, others pile in and says it is wrong. It is not wrong. It is absolutely correct they were turning 95%, and at that time way higher than 20s and 37s or anything else INCLUDING CLASS 08. My gen is not from an 58 enthusiast either, but from those in Control who ran the MGR program.

Although, I do not think this 95% period was when EWS took over but earlier. I believe the 95% was at the time of breakup of BR freight into the three freightcos - and reliability suffered exactly because of that breakup, and inter company accounting.

IIRC there was just one minor defect that stopped them from getting higher than 95% - it was something to do with the cooling system, one of the rotating or moving parts, maybe a water pump or motor or maybe a drive belt that they never managed to resolve. What they were doing was simply changing this item more often than needed on a lower interval exam, but this had the knock on effect this exam took longer than it ought to have. So reliability went up (i.e. changing the item before it failed the loco) but availability was down from what it could have been (because they were spending longer time on xmas).


--
Nick
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

they often on dragging new st to Nuneaton on sundays in the early 80s great trash hang out of mk2 air cons

I would dispute a 58 ever thrashed at anything.

Not when compared with other locos.

58s were quite heavily silenced. Think about it - they must be silenced. The engine lump is basically the same as a 37, merely an update of it.

I did a lot of those 58 drags, had something like 30 of the class on them, including the very first 58 drag, and as I lived in Coventry i had a number of emergency weekdays drags as well as all the Sundays planned stuff.

Some Sundays you had one 58 one 56 and one 50 on them. You'd not say a 58 thrashed if you had had a 50 one the same day to compare like for like on the same line on the same load.

In all the 58s I had, I would only say there was one run that for me came audibly noteworthy, and that was the pair on the BoneBreaker tour doing Down the GEML through Seven Kings etc . And as that was right at the end of the class maybe the 58(s) were not working properly therefore making more noise than they should.


--
Nick

 

[Beveridges]

It's all relative, surely compared to a modern MTU Powercar or GM 66 or even a GE Powerhaul, you would say a 58 thrashed?

I can't say as I never heard one working outside of videos, and on videos you can't really tell. Were they louder than 60's?

 

[D7666]

It's all relative, surely compared to a modern MTU Powercar or GM 66 or even a GE Powerhaul, you would say a 58 thrashed?

I can't say as I never heard one working outside of videos, and on videos you can't really tell. Were they louder than 60's?

Relative yes, but that description was of 1980s dragging thus relative to active equipment of that era.

I would say not much louder than 60s no, well not at least when 58s in full working order. Occasionally a 58 might have an odd cylinder chugging gently but that was a defect and not normal, there was often awful blue smoke when that occurred. And that was not hellfire, it was plain bad.

I would also say 58s sounded louder from a lineside viewpoint than when hauling you. Indeed, they sounded potentially quite good when backing on the front of an ACL at BNS, but impression was soon shattered as soon as the thing moved. So a track side video won't help much.

Digression, one this about 60s is I can sense them in the background when they are quite far away even though there is no noise there. I noticed that right from the start with 60s entering service and still occasionally notice it now when one passes my Luton residence. There is no other type of loco anywhere in the world I have come across that does that. But interestingly I can do the same with aircraft - I can sense a 146 departing / arriving before I can hear it, look up and see one, all other jets are just plain noise.

--
Nick

 

[briosa]

According to Wikipedia the 58s had an Engine of : 3,300 hp (2,460 kW) and At Rail: 2,387 hp (1,780 kW) where as the 66s also have Engine: 3,300 bhp (2,460 kW) but at rail: 3,000 bhp (2,240 kW)
How does the 58 loose nearly 1000hp ?

 

[D7666]

According to Wikipedia the 58s had an Engine of : 3,300 hp (2,460 kW) and At Rail: 2,387 hp (1,780 kW) where as the 66s also have Engine: 3,300 bhp (2,460 kW) but at rail: 3,000 bhp (2,240 kW)
How does the 58 loose nearly 1000hp ?

Wrong way to read that, wiki data is in error, and not the 58 data this is wildly inaccurate but the 66 data. It iss wiki dribble : never never take anything in wiki as absolute or authoritative.

58 is 2460 kW gross 1780 kW rail

66 is 2385 kW gross 1850 kW rail


Behind those values you really need more data that is not declared here either.

A simple rule of thumb, for DC-DC diesel locomotives (and I include here locos where the main "generator" is really an alternator with immediate rectification to DC) , after the engine crankshaft out put you lose ~9% at the generator and another 9% at the traction motor. This only consider traction loads, it does not take into account power adsorbed by locomotive auxiliaries.

Another thing is US suppliers quote engine power in a different way to almost everywhere else in the world. When we talk about a 58 engine as 3300 hp then it is 3300 hp with everything fitted, all the engine kit needed to drive itself, so some hp is adsorbed there. US suppliers talk differently, when they say 3200 hp they exclude those items. I suspect if you did an exact like for like laboratory bench test a 66 engine is in the 3300 - 3350 hp range if stated in UK terms.

Another example is exactly what units of measurement are being talked about, and what reference.

On units of measurement by far the best examples is Kestrel, where the 4000 of HS4000 meant 4000 hp. Well yes and no. It really means 4000 METRIC horse power, and metric hp ain't the same as hp. To compare Kestrel with any other UK loco, the value is 3946 hp not 4000 hp.





--
Nick

 

[Genocide]

The above is correct but overlooks axle load.

An easy way to look at this is to think of a car in snow. You'd rather have a front wheel drive car, because the weight of the engine creates a downward force on the driving wheels.

66's are a suspended solid frame, in which the whole weight of the unit is equally distributed between draw bars. 58's were effectively a floating frame structured between non-integral cab units. This means there was very little downward force on the outer powered axles, hence the chronic wheelslip.