Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[Goldfish62]

No, in the series of Press releases in March 2017 when franchise was awarded, the new trains were due to enter service from Autumn 2018 and be all in service by end of 2019.

So all should have been in service, and everyone should have been fully trained pre Covid, the first trains are currently over 1000 days late in starting to enter service.

Providing a link to DfT Press Release, which rather demonstrates that SWR haven’t delivered on list of improvements that were promised.

First MTR South Western Trains Limited wins South Western franchise

Passengers to enjoy more space, more services and faster journeys as First MTR South Western Trains Limited wins South Western rail franchise.

www.gov.uk

Little did we know back then that the franchise would be terminated in March 2021 either.

I've actually given up hope of the 701s ever entering service and I'm just assuming that SWR will soldier on with its increasingly ageing rolling stock pending any future decisions from DfT/GBR. Given that SWR is partially justifying its proposed service cuts next year on the basis of being able to cram more people into the 701s this could create an interesting situation when they are inevitably still not in service by December 2022.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Little did we know back then that the franchise would be terminated in March 2021 either.

I've actually given up hope of the 701s ever entering service and I'm just assuming that SWR will soldier on with its increasingly ageing rolling stock pending any future decisions from DfT/GBR. Given that SWR is partially justifying its proposed service cuts next year on the basis of being able to cram more people into the 701s this could create an interesting situation when they are inevitably still not in service by December 2022.

Yes the 455's are old but the retraction and refurb produced a good train except when it was hot day and were good for another 10 years. The Siemens units have got decades left. My view is the 701's would have been better being reassigned to SE but that aint going to happen so the more appropriate question is do they really need the 458's?

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes the 455's are old but the retraction and refurb produced a good train except when it was hot day and were good for another 10 years. The Siemens units have got decades left. My view is the 701's would have been better being reassigned to SE but that aint going to happen so the more appropriate question is do they really need the 458's?

If the 701s had gone to SE what would SWR have got? Cast-off Networkers?!

The reason the 455s were retractioned was a short-term measure to accommodate the 707s at Wimbledon without need for extending the depot. The retractioning was supposed to extend the life of the trains for up to 10 years and it seems rather likely that that will now be achieved!

With the 707s gone don't you think that SWR would be rather short of trains if they also disposed of the 458s? There were a couple of short formations on the Reading line this weekend as it is.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If the 701s had gone to SE what would SWR have got? Cast-off Networkers?!

The reason the 455s were retractioned was a short-term measure to accommodate the 707s at Wimbledon without need for extending the depot. The retractioning was supposed to extend the life of the trains for up to 10 years and it seems rather likely that that will now be achieved!

With the 707s gone don't you think that SWR would be rather short of trains if they also disposed of the 458s? There were a couple of short formations on the Reading line this weekend as it is.

It didn't need them it had enough stock but that didn't suit DofT when it wanted to relet the franchise they wanted something for a minister to to tell the locals what a great deal they were getting.

To clarify will SWR need the 458's post the 2022 timetable is the question I should have posed.

 

[bb21]

It didn't need them it had enough stock but that didn't suit DofT when it wanted to relet the franchise they wanted something for a minister to to tell the locals what a great deal they were getting.

To clarify will SWR need the 458's post the 2022 timetable is the question I should have posed.

What did they not need?

 

[MontyP]

Could anyone provide, for those of us who haven't kept up with the 2800+ previous posts in this thread, what exactly are the problems with these units, how/when are they likely to be fixed?

 

[Goldfish62]

It didn't need them it had enough stock but that didn't suit DofT when it wanted to relet the franchise they wanted something for a minister to to tell the locals what a great deal they were getting.

To clarify will SWR need the 458's post the 2022 timetable is the question I should have posed.

Yes, I guessed that's what your question was. My answer still stands. Without the 701s could SWR afford to lose both the 707s and 458s?

If however you're assuming that the 701s will have been introduced by then, then I'd agree. Would they need the 458s (assuming of course the cuts go ahead)?

 

[DorkingMain]

Could anyone provide, for those of us who haven't kept up with the 2800+ previous posts in this thread, what exactly are the problems with these units, how/when are they likely to be fixed?

Major build defects, software configuration issues and a problem with the cab being too small on early units, to name a few of the major issues.

As for the latter question - nobody really knows. They were due in service in December 2018, so they're coming up to three years late, and it doesn't seem like the situation is getting any better, at least not in the short-term. Recent attempts at racking up fault-free mileage have reportedly been painfully unsuccessful, so they are a way off even being passed to SWR to start training.

 

[Bayum]

Major build defects, software configuration issues and a problem with the cab being too small on early units, to name a few of the major issues.

As for the latter question - nobody really knows. They were due in service in December 2018, so they're coming up to three years late, and it doesn't seem like the situation is getting any better, at least not in the short-term. Recent attempts at racking up fault-free mileage have reportedly been painfully unsuccessful, so they are a way off even being passed to SWR to start training.

Any idea what ‘major’ defects?

 

[365 Networker]

Out of interest, what are the chances of cracks being found in these units? I assume they have been checked for this as they use light-weight bogies.

 

[fgwrich]

No, in the series of Press releases in March 2017 when franchise was awarded, the new trains were due to enter service from Autumn 2018 and be all in service by end of 2019.

So all should have been in service, and everyone should have been fully trained pre Covid, the first trains are currently over 1000 days late in starting to enter service.

Providing a link to DfT Press Release, which rather demonstrates that SWR haven’t delivered on list of improvements that were promised.

First MTR South Western Trains Limited wins South Western franchise

Passengers to enjoy more space, more services and faster journeys as First MTR South Western Trains Limited wins South Western rail franchise.

www.gov.uk

And from what I've heard it'll be a while yet. They are awaiting further software improvements as they are still having issues when coupled. I'm surprised they haven't chosen to put out the 10 car sets first and work out a fix for the shorter ones later, but clearly they are having considerable problems with both fleets. I can feel First Groups lawyers preparing to fire up their laptops at this rate - Bombardier / Alstom certainly seem to be setting a new record here for longest entry into service.

Major build defects, software configuration issues and a problem with the cab being too small on early units, to name a few of the major issues.

As for the latter question - nobody really knows. They were due in service in December 2018, so they're coming up to three years late, and it doesn't seem like the situation is getting any better, at least not in the short-term. Recent attempts at racking up fault-free mileage have reportedly been painfully unsuccessful, so they are a way off even being passed to SWR to start training.

I'm glad you said it! I passed one unit a few weekends back, which looked like the "tape" around the cab join was already starting to peel off.

 

[Domh245]

Out of interest, what are the chances of cracks being found in these units? I assume they have been checked for this as they use light-weight bogies.

The Hitachi cracking issues are nothing to do with the light-weight bogies and entirely to do with the construction methods and material specification of bogie mounts and jacking points. The fact that none of the 345s, 710s (or 720s) were stopped for cracks suggest that Derby have the same issue, nor Siemens and the 700/707/717 fleets for that matter

 

[365 Networker]

The Hitachi cracking issues are nothing to do with the light-weight bogies and entirely to do with the construction methods and material specification of bogie mounts and jacking points. The fact that none of the 345s, 710s (or 720s) were stopped for cracks suggest that Derby have the same issue, nor Siemens and the 700/707/717 fleets for that matter

Thanks for the info.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, I guessed that's what your question was. My answer still stands. Without the 701s could SWR afford to lose both the 707s and 458s?

If however you're assuming that the 701s will have been introduced by then, then I'd agree. Would they need the 458s (assuming of course the cuts go ahead)?

Yes if Dec 2022 Timetable is the new norm and the 701's are in use would they need the 458's to resource it. I acknowledge this won't be the situation with the 701's but on the basis they get 701's sorted and given mechanically and electrically they are substantially the same as 720's they will sort the software in the end why spend the money on 458's.

 

[WarrenTManager]

I'm surprised they haven't chosen to put out the 10 car sets first and work out a fix for the shorter ones later, but clearly they are having considerable problems with both fleets.

The 10 car sets are in reality 2 half sets of 5 cars, semi permanently coupled, just like two 5 cars in multiple just without intermediate cabs. Thus they need the software fix too.

 

[adc82140]

To an outsider like me, a 701 is just a DC 710 with a different cab on the front. There's naturally going to be more to it than that, but what, and why did they need to seemingly re invent the wheel?

 

[southern442]

If however you're assuming that the 701s will have been introduced by then, then I'd agree. Would they need the 458s (assuming of course the cuts go ahead)?

Technically speaking probably not. But, there is still the promise of higher quality long-distance units, so they could either use the downtime to do them up then, or if we assume they want to try and get it done before December 2022, they could use the timetable change as a chance to swap the 458s and 450s around? i.e. 450s go to the Reading line and 458s work certain Portsmouth services that were 450s.

 

[pompeyfan]

Technically speaking probably not. But, there is still the promise of higher quality long-distance units, so they could either use the downtime to do them up then, or if we assume they want to try and get it done before December 2022, they could use the timetable change as a chance to swap the 458s and 450s around? i.e. 450s go to the Reading line and 458s work certain Portsmouth services that were 450s.

450s will not be used on Reading services, this is to enable all inner and Windsor services to be operated with Metro guards who will not retain dispatch competency.
I would very much expect that only Waterloo commercial, Farnham, Woking and Guildford will maintain dispatch for Desiro and diesel operated services.

 

[Goldfish62]

450s will not be used on Reading services, this is to enable all inner and Windsor services to be operated with Metro guards who will not retain dispatch competency.
I would very much expect that only Waterloo commercial, Farnham, Woking and Guildford will maintain dispatch for Desiro and diesel operated services.

I assume the OP was referring to the situation if the 701s don't get introduced next year. Given that 40% of the weekday Reading service is already in the hands of 450s (3 of 7 pairs of units) it wouldn't take much to (re-) convert the entire service.

Technically speaking probably not. But, there is still the promise of higher quality long-distance units, so they could either use the downtime to do them up then, or if we assume they want to try and get it done before December 2022, they could use the timetable change as a chance to swap the 458s and 450s around? i.e. 450s go to the Reading line and 458s work certain Portsmouth services that were 450s.

The immediate problem with that is that 458/5s are limited to 75mph.

 

[TEW]

450s will not be used on Reading services, this is to enable all inner and Windsor services to be operated with Metro guards who will not retain dispatch competency.
I would very much expect that only Waterloo commercial, Farnham, Woking and Guildford will maintain dispatch for Desiro and diesel operated services.

Long term the plan is for some 450 work to remain on Windsor Side services, whether that includes Reading I am not sure.

 

[southern442]

The immediate problem with that is that 458/5s are limited to 75mph.

This would be assuming that they've been done up by then. Perhaps a little optimistic I'll admit

 

[pompeyfan]

Long term the plan is for some 450 work to remain on Windsor Side services, whether that includes Reading I am not sure.

I would be surprised if that is the case but I don’t think anyone knows anything for certain in the currently climate.

 

[TEW]

I would be surprised if that is the case but I don’t think anyone knows anything for certain in the currently climate.

I was told it with a fair degree of certainty, having not expected it myself.

 

[pompeyfan]

I was told it with a fair degree of certainty, having not expected it myself.

I can only assume it’s to maintain diversionary knowledge for long distance stock in the event they need to call intermittently. Possibly Weybridge or Hounslow rounders in that case.

 

[WombleGuard]

I can only assume it’s to maintain diversionary knowledge for long distance stock in the event they need to call intermittently. Possibly Weybridge or Hounslow rounders in that case.

There are Commercial Guards based at SNS. It would be a waste to just have them working 701s I guess.

 

[pompeyfan]

There are Commercial Guards based at SNS. It would be a waste to just have them working 701s I guess.

I believe they’ll still remain commercial but only work 701s. If they don’t sign the Byfleet curve there’s no point them retaining dispatch.
I am only speculating but it’s an educated guess having seen how the DOO/DCO dispute evolved and ended as well as the documents previously published regarding 701s.

regardless, at this rate I think it’s safe to say all guard depots will retain ding ding knowledge until May 2023 at the very earliest.

 

[swr444]

I believe they’ll still remain commercial but only work 701s. If they don’t sign the Byfleet curve there’s no point them retaining dispatch.
I am only speculating but it’s an educated guess having seen how the DOO/DCO dispute evolved and ended as well as the documents previously published regarding 701s.

regardless, at this rate I think it’s safe to say all guard depots will retain ding ding knowledge until May 2023 at the very earliest.

701's may be driver open, guard close at this rate. They have supposedly been wiring up the GOP door close buttons because of disputes from drivers regarding guards not being safety-critical

 

[Goldfish62]

701's may be driver open, guard close at this rate. They have supposedly been wiring up the GOP door close buttons because of disputes from drivers regarding guards not being safety-critical

That's not what the agreement that's been published on this forum said.

 

[swr444]

That's not what the agreement that's been published on this forum said.

I am well aware of that.

 

[pompeyfan]

The buttons in the GOP have always been live with the assistance of a key, and I can’t see that changing.

I’m led to believe that metro guards will remain safety critical in terms of emergency protection and the use of GSMR, but their route knowledge will be weighted more towards customer service than operational.

Currently some of the inner depots don’t sign Guildford via Worplesdon. Whether the new method of working will be able to see a last minute diversion if required should the driver possess sufficient route knowledge remains to be seen but it’s very much a slippery slope.