Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[py_megapixel]

Just give them some pantographs and send them on HS1, that likes 15 car trains!

Not sure it likes trains with a maximum speed of 100mph though!

 

[LUYMun]

End gangways would be a pointless expense on two thirds of the units, as the 10-car sets are too long to work in multiple with anything else.

And designing an end gangway just for the 5-car fleet would add more cost.

It adds the convenience of walking the entire length of the train, as one does on the 455 and 458.

Also, what areas are 701s expected to run 5 coaches anyway? It'd be more suited for all trains to have 10 coaches given it'd be on Metro routes.

 

[Domh245]

It adds the convenience of walking the entire length of the train, as one does on the 455 and 458.

Also, what areas are 701s expected to run 5 coaches anyway? It'd be more suited for all trains to have 10 coaches given it'd be on Metro routes.

Poor choice of example there - neither the 455 nor 458 gangways are publicly accessible, crew use only!

The 5 car 701s were like-for-like replacements of the 707s, I vaguely recall something around a few early morning & late night services on windsor side running as 5 cars before doubling up for the main part of the day, but that was pre-covid so will have almost certainly changed plans now

 

[Snow1964]

Also, what areas are 701s expected to run 5 coaches anyway? It'd be more suited for all trains to have 10 coaches given it'd be on Metro routes.

A few shuttles like Kingston-Shepperton were always going to need shorter trains (Kingston bay cannot take more than 8cars)

But could easily of had say 65 x10car and only 20 x 5 car.
I suspect never even going to see as many as dozen 5car trains operating as single units, which suggests proportion of 5car is too generous.

Not sure how quantity of 30 5car was decided, unless it was direct copy of 707s (although they don't all operate as single units which makes this daft quantity choice from operating perspective). Probably cost more to equip extra cabs too.

When 455s first arrived they many operated singly at weekends, late evenings and between peaks. Full length trains all day, 7 days week have become norm, so could have been nearly all 10 car.

 

[DMckduck97]

What’s with the rumours of it failing multiple trap and drag tests, could not knowing or being able to come to an agreement on how to operate the things be holding them up more than software and hardware issues at this point?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I vaguely recall something around a few early morning & late night services on windsor side running as 5 cars before doubling up for the main part of the day,

Due mostly to overall stabling capacity (or lack of), eg 2 x 5 car in (one 10 car) siding at Staines. Formed two early starts and combined at Waterloo later. Other locations, Wimbledon, Clapham etc only have so many sidings that can hold 10 car units, when the whole plan (other stock types included) is taken in to account.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It adds the convenience of walking the entire length of the train, as one does on the 455 and 458.

The end gangways on 455s and 458s are for crew use only. And they rarely use them - the guards never leave their cabs and ticket inspectors, if they need to switch between units, do so at stations. If there is an emergency there is always a crew member in each half of the train.

So - you either:

• fit more expensive and less driver-friendly end-gangway cabs to all units, even though they would never be used on the 10car sets
• fit cheaper and more driver-friendly non-gangwayed cabs to all units, and put up with the minor inconvenience that you can't walk between units, which has always been the case on most of the SW suburban lines: (as recently as the early 1980s there were stil units where you couldn't walk between compartments, let alone carriages or whole units!)
• go to the expense of designing two different kinds of cab for the 5-car and 10-car sets

 

[janahan]

The end gangways on 455s and 458s are for crew use only. And they rarely use them - the guards never leave their cabs and ticket inspectors, if they need to switch between units, do so at stations. If there is an emergency there is always a crew member in each half of the train.

Not entirely true of the 458s. Whilst it is true that before the rebuild, the 458's gangway was locked out of passenger use (due to some accessibility issues), those issues have been resolved with the rebuild. And whilst its often locked out (usually when the guard is in the middle, and needs access to both sides of the train), I have myself used it often when it is available. I think the door itself is not very inviting, and the fact it requires turning a handle, as opposed to pressing a "lit when available" button like on the 450s/444s, people dont often know the option is sometimes available (the guard locks the doors if they are using the full width of the middle cabs)

 

[3973EXL]

56098 701033 50007

Realtime Trains | 5Q10 0915 Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd | 28/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q10 0915 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Eastleigh Trsmd on 28/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Mollman]

How do they get from Derby to Worksop generally, do they go via Sheffield or up the Robin Hood line using the triangle junction near Nottingham?

Up the Erewash to Pye Bridge then across to join the Robin Hood line at Kirkby in Ashfield

 

[LUYMun]

Poor choice of example there - neither the 455 nor 458 gangways are publicly accessible, crew use only!

The 5 car 701s were like-for-like replacements of the 707s, I vaguely recall something around a few early morning & late night services on windsor side running as 5 cars before doubling up for the main part of the day, but that was pre-covid so will have almost certainly changed plans now

The end gangways on 455s and 458s are for crew use only. And they rarely use them - the guards never leave their cabs and ticket inspectors, if they need to switch between units, do so at stations. If there is an emergency there is always a crew member in each half of the train.

So - you either:

• fit more expensive and less driver-friendly end-gangway cabs to all units, even though they would never be used on the 10 car sets
• fit cheaper and more driver-friendly non-gangwayed cabs to all units, and put up with the minor inconvenience that you can't walk between units, which has always been the case on most of the SW suburban lines: (as recently as the early 1980s there were stil units where you couldn't walk between compartments, let alone carriages or whole units!)
• go to the expense of designing two different kinds of cab for the 5-car and 10-car sets

Regardless, both units still have gangways that can be accessible (public or not). The 450s are a well-regarded example of publicly accessible gangways, which the units often find themselves working the Reading/Windsor/Weybridge services. Also, I didn't show support about the addition of gangway ends for the 701s. That said, I am a strong believer of all 701s being 10 coaches long.

I doubt there would be the requirement of having single units during the early morning and late evening periods, so trains should make the most of 10 car capability over a longer period of time.

A few shuttles like Kingston-Shepperton were always going to need shorter trains (Kingston bay cannot take more than 8 cars)

But could easily of had say 65 x 10 car and only 20 x 5 car.
I suspect never even going to see as many as dozen 5 car trains operating as single units, which suggests proportion of 5 car is too generous.

Not sure how quantity of 30 5 car was decided, unless it was direct copy of 707s (although they don't all operate as single units which makes this daft quantity choice from operating perspective). Probably cost more to equip extra cabs too.

When 455s first arrived they many operated singly at weekends, late evenings and between peaks. Full length trains all day, 7 days week have become norm, so could have been nearly all 10 car.

The Kingston bay really isn't used much these days bar early/late terminates as well as non-passenger movements as far as I can see. If trains want to turn around there the crossover does allow movements into platform 2. That platform is better off done away.

 

[Goldfish62]

Regardless, both units still have gangways that can be accessible (public or not). The 450s are a well-regarded example of publicly accessible gangways, which the units often find themselves working the Reading/Windsor/Weybridge services.

Except that the gangway is locked by the guard much of the time on Windsor/Reading services!

But I take your point. When it is open it is used by passengers.

 

[Benjwri]

On the question of gangways I would ask whether their usage actually justifies they inclusion. At least on the 387s around me, which have some of the most obvious publicly accessible gangways, I rarely see people using them. Even on busy services I’ll only see one or two people use it in the trains entire journey.

The only justification for gangways really is when they mean you can have fewer staff, for which this isn’t the case, or possibly trains with reservations, but again this isn’t the case.

 

[LUYMun]

On the question of gangways I would ask whether their usage actually justifies they inclusion. At least on the 387s around me, which have some of the most obvious publicly accessible gangways, I rarely see people using them. Even on busy services I’ll only see one or two people use it in the trains entire journey.

The only justification for gangways really is when they mean you can have fewer staff, for which this isn’t the case, or possibly trains with reservations, but again this isn’t the case.

From my observations, passengers boarding a 444/450 train at Waterloo would be advised to walk down the train, using the gangway connection. Elsewhere, it is less common but passengers do walk through it to find a quieter coach. I suppose there is some hesitancy from some passengers because the doors could be presented in a way that makes it seem the gangway-passer-by would be trespassing into the cab, as described in a post above. The 444/450s have a button to open the gangway doors with little transparency through it, unlike the end-to-end connections provided within the unit. A handle to pull these days might indicate staff usage only!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Still don’t get why they didn’t just get all ten cars. “Because 5 is usually enough on weekends” doesn’t seem a great reason when you can have a uniform fleet with guaranteed ten car length. More money, but then if they were that concerned they’d have kept the 707s in lieu of the 5 cars

 

[Warrior2852]

Still don’t get why they didn’t just get all ten cars. “Because 5 is usually enough on weekends” doesn’t seem a great reason when you can have a uniform fleet with guaranteed ten car length. More money, but then if they were that concerned they’d have kept the 707s in lieu of the 5 cars

707s were got rid of due to higher leasing costs when the 701s were ordered, in the long term it was cheaper to get 701s (of any of the lengths) than keep the 707s.

 

[pompeyfan]

10 cars would not be able to run during some engineering works as they wouldn’t be able to fit behind ground position signals at places like Hounslow

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

10 cars would not be able to run during some engineering works as they wouldn’t be able to fit behind ground position signals at places like Hounslow

I knew there was a reason, thanks.

 

[Goldfish62]

10 cars would not be able to run during some engineering works as they wouldn’t be able to fit behind ground position signals at places like Hounslow

Aren't those signals being repositioned as part of the Feltham and Wokingham resignalling scheme? Seems ridiculous if not given the various enhancements already introduced in earlier phases of the scheme.

 

[swr444]

10 cars would not be able to run during some engineering works as they wouldn’t be able to fit behind ground position signals at places like Hounslow

not true once the resignalling is complete this autumn

 

[Warrior2852]

not true once the resignalling is complete this autumn

Remember though that these trains were originally scheduled to be introduced 5(!) years ago, so resignalling completing this year would have been well after introduction.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Due mostly to overall stabling capacity

Still don’t get why they didn’t just get all ten cars.

Reference my post up thread. Take Wimbledon depot, the part visible from District line trains. There are over a dozen stabling sidings between the shed and the district line, most of which are full of 455'e etc most nights. Only two of those roads outside the shed can accommodate 10 car suburban stock, the remainder are too short, and hence will (likely) be used to accommodate a good few 5 car sets when not in use.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It adds the convenience of walking the entire length of the train, as one does on the 455 and 458.

Also, what areas are 701s expected to run 5 coaches anyway? It'd be more suited for all trains to have 10 coaches given it'd be on Metro routes.

I think of how much money and space has been used up on cabs in the middle of trains - instead we have all 701s having cramped cabs ?.

On the question of gangways I would ask whether their usage actually justifies they inclusion. At least on the 387s around me, which have some of the most obvious publicly accessible gangways, I rarely see people using them. Even on busy services I’ll only see one or two people use it in the trains entire journey.

The only justification for gangways really is when they mean you can have fewer staff, for which this isn’t the case, or possibly trains with reservations, but again this isn’t the case.

Well on the Southern a lot of people pass through. East Croydon station has its main entrance/exit at the country end whereas Victoria is the opposite. I regularly go from end-to-end.

Reference my post up thread. Take Wimbledon depot, the part visible from District line trains. There are over a dozen stabling sidings between the shed and the district line, most of which are full of 455'e etc most nights. Only two of those roads outside the shed can accommodate 10 car suburban stock, the remainder are too short, and hence will (likely) be used to accommodate a good few 5 car sets when not in use.

So we can add all that coupling and uncoupling as a downside as well. I am glad Three Bridges is long enough to take 12-car, how about moving Wimbledon depot (a lot) further out of London.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well on the Southern a lot of people pass through. East Croydon station has its main entrance/exit at the country end whereas Victoria is the opposite. I regularly go from end-to-end.

On the Elecrostar it's a very good design. I doubt if many passengers actually realise they're passing between units. A bit different from on the Desiros where it's obvious.

 

[Mikey C]

At a time when services are being cut, those 10 car trains do lack flexibility too. I imagine they'll be carrying air around for a lot of the time, all added expense for the railway, when elsewhere people are crammed onto 2 car units.

 

[Peter Sarf]

At a time when services are being cut, those 10 car trains do lack flexibility too. I imagine they'll be carrying air around for a lot of the time, all added expense for the railway, when elsewhere people are crammed onto 2 car units.

If the railway wants to be efficient then they will run fewer services, not shorter services, thus saving on staff (which we seem to be short of). This is especially true in areas with a high frequency service like most of London and would also lead to better service reliability.

 

[pompeyfan]

not true once the resignalling is complete this autumn

To be fair I was citing it as an example. I believe Clandon is another one, also Ashtead, although I wait to be corrected.

 

[Meerkat]

On the question of gangways I would ask whether their usage actually justifies they inclusion. At least on the 387s around me, which have some of the most obvious publicly accessible gangways, I rarely see people using them. Even on busy services I’ll only see one or two people use it in the trains entire journey.

The only justification for gangways really is when they mean you can have fewer staff, for which this isn’t the case, or possibly trains with reservations, but again this isn’t the case.

I have walked the length of 12/9/10 coach trains out of Waterloo loads of times. It helps boarding as they can get latecomers to pile in the nearest door (the front unit is a fair trek away).
The trains on Saturday afternoon/evenings are frequently crowded enough that there are still groups wandering down the train looking for seats when we stop at Clapham Junction and another load of people want to get on.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

So we can add all that coupling and uncoupling as a downside as well. I am glad Three Bridges is long enough to take 12-car, how about moving Wimbledon depot (a lot) further out of London

Going back several years, pre covid, there were in the order of about 15 suburban train departures weekday mornings from that part of Wimbledon depot. Eight of these were 10 car formations, which was the maximum number of 10 car sidings available. The remainder were 8 car formations, using the shorter sidings, so you can see the problem if all suburban trains were to be 10 car. Shunting to form up trains during the period of morning departures would be as good as impossible, due to lack of spare time between consecutive departures.

Your last point was addressed out of necessity some years ago, when sidings in Woking Up yard and alongside the Down line, London end of Guildford, were electrified for these very reasons.

Edited: the 60 x 10 car fixed formations would just about be doable, stabling wise, assuming all locations used for 455/456/458/707 in the past, plus Feltham, can be used to stable said formations. Have a feeling overall things might still prove to be tighter, particularly Clapham and Waterloo (stabling wise), but that awaits to be seen. But back to TT-ONR-NRN, another reason why there is a mix of 10 & 5 car units.

 

[TEW]

To be fair I was citing it as an example. I believe Clandon is another one, also Ashtead, although I wait to be corrected.

Clandon is indeed max 8-car. Leatherhead is where the crossover is rather than Ashtead although AFAIK the restriction there is that trains reversing on the up line must have a through gangway, a 10-car gangwayed unit shouldn't be a problem.
Wimbledon No 1 UCS which is used to reverse Sunday morning Guildford via Cobham services is 8-car max. Anything longer would have to use the depot proper which is signed by less crews.