Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Peter Sarf]

Logstics may play a part too. All the stored ones need to be dragged back...again...then what they displace needs to go to disposal locations. Those old 47s will be clocking up the miles! One wonders if the stored ones will need another shakedown prior to service?

I seem to recall thinking some of the 701s have spent most of the past three years or more inactive. I would expect them to be less healthy than an untested 701 fresh off the production line. Look at how some of the very early GA 720/5s are not yet in service.

 

[Goldfish62]

I seem to recall thinking some of the 701s have spent most of the past three years or more inactive. I would expect them to be less healthy than an untested 701 fresh off the production line. Look at how some of the very early GA 720/5s are not yet in service.

Very true, although SWR have stated that it will take a couple of years to get all the trains into service (reasonable given the training requirements). Surely that's sufficient time to recommission and shake down the long-stored units.

Plus of course, given that SWR seem to have no intention of restoring pre-Covid timetables I don't see how they will need all the 701s. Similar to GA who don't need 20 of their 720s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Very true, although SWR have stated that it will take a couple of years to get all the trains into service (reasonable given the training requirements). Surely that's sufficient time to recommission and shake down the long-stored units.

Plus of course, given that SWR seem to have no intention of restoring pre-Covid timetables I don't see how they will need all the 701s. Similar to GA who don't need 20 of their 720s.

True there won't be an immediate need for all the 701s. I can imagine there being at least 20 of the 701s needing quite a lot of work doing to them to get them commissioned. But once SWR have enough 701s to mostly replace the 455s and 707s I suspect the pressure will be off.

 

[amazon1675]

Hmmm...leasing/storage costs on new stock doing nothing,and old stock which should have been gone several years ago. Add in the cost of keeping two lots of parts on the shelf. Then we have the 458 refurb 'situation'. Someone is paying...

 

[Carlisle]

Someone is paying...

Dft & Alstom going by the info on this thread .

 

[TheHSRailFan]

The citation is:

Pickering, Graeme (May 2023). "December start date for SWR 'Arterios'". Track Record. The Railway Magazine. No. 1466. Horncastle: Mortons Media Group. p. 90. ISSN 0033-8923.

My point exactly with "hollow promises" since the article is most likely referring to SWR saying that. This thread proves a lot has changed since may.

 

[12LDA28C]

I will not believe that they are entering service until i see it happen. They were originally supposed to enter passenger service in Spring 2019 so over four and a half years late now. It is difficult to believe that they will actually enter service and that another problem will not come up.

So has the role of the Guard and the method of door operation been decided yet? From reading the recent posts in this thread it seems not? Some people are saying it will be Driver Open Driver Close (this was the original plan) and some saying Driver Open Guard Close (and that plans have changed) so it seems to still be under discussion from what i gather? It does not seem very clear on what will happen. This is one reason why i doubt they will enter service this soon.

The Guards who will work the 701s are mainly the Non Commercial Guards (or Metro Guards as they call them now) who do not check or sell tickets. On the current stock they open and close doors and despatch the train. However if the new 701s are Driver Open Driver Close than are SWR basically paying for Guards to do nothing? So they will basically just sit on the train reading the paper?

If they are using the Driver Open Driver Close method then will the Guards be required to step on to the platform at every stop like the Southern OBSs are? Or will it be like the AGA Guards and Southeastern OBMs and they will not be required to do this?

Also will the Guards be guaranteed on every train (so the train can not run without) like the AGA Guards and Southeastern OBMs are? Or are they allowing them to run with just the Driver when a Guard is unavailable like Southern does when their OBSs are unavailable?

There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about this. Even some friends i have who work for SWR are unsure. I know three Guards who work at SWR and even none of them are sure on any of the above.

Confirmation that training is happening from those people actually doing it would seem to suggest that introduction to service is imminent and your scepticism appears to be unfounded.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Confirmation that training is happening from those people actually doing it would seem to suggest that introduction to service is imminent and your scepticism appears to be unfounded.

Service entry is looking very likely soon at last.

I think that we will soon be moving on to the next big question which will be how long before the last 701 enters service - I really dread to think what state the longest stored 701s are in.

 

[The_Train]

That won’t stop them issuing a press release if all goes well I PROMISE you

Now that I can well believe

 

[12LDA28C]

As said earlier, A launch can be one time.

Soft Launch is different and is quietly starting regular use, which builds up, so at least same number of trains following day

But both terms are being banded about, so unclear which it will be.

It will be soft launch, as confirmed by several posts in this thread.

 

[D365]

I seem to recall thinking some of the 701s have spent most of the past three years or more inactive. I would expect them to be less healthy than an untested 701 fresh off the production line. Look at how some of the very early GA 720/5s are not yet in service.

Very true, although SWR have stated that it will take a couple of years to get all the trains into service (reasonable given the training requirements). Surely that's sufficient time to recommission and shake down the long-stored units.

And hardware/software modifications needed…

 

[3973EXL]

701003

Realtime Trains | 5Q68 1210 Derby Litchurch Lane to Wembley Inter City Depot | 05/12/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q68 1210 departure from Derby Litchurch Lane to Wembley Inter City Depot on 05/12/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DMckduck97]

I will not believe that they are entering service until i see it happen. They were originally supposed to enter passenger service in Spring 2019 so over four and a half years late now. It is difficult to believe that they will actually enter service and that another problem will not come up.

So has the role of the Guard and the method of door operation been decided yet? From reading the recent posts in this thread it seems not? Some people are saying it will be Driver Open Driver Close (this was the original plan) and some saying Driver Open Guard Close (and that plans have changed) so it seems to still be under discussion from what i gather? It does not seem very clear on what will happen. This is one reason why i doubt they will enter service this soon.

The Guards who will work the 701s are mainly the Non Commercial Guards (or Metro Guards as they call them now) who do not check or sell tickets. On the current stock they open and close doors and despatch the train. However if the new 701s are Driver Open Driver Close than are SWR basically paying for Guards to do nothing? So they will basically just sit on the train reading the paper?

If they are using the Driver Open Driver Close method then will the Guards be required to step on to the platform at every stop like the Southern OBSs are? Or will it be like the AGA Guards and Southeastern OBMs and they will not be required to do this?

Also will the Guards be guaranteed on every train (so the train can not run without) like the AGA Guards and Southeastern OBMs are? Or are they allowing them to run with just the Driver when a Guard is unavailable like Southern does when their OBSs are unavailable?

There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions about this. Even some friends i have who work for SWR are unsure. I know three Guards who work at SWR and even none of them are sure on any of the above.

Commercial guards are the first to be trained on them, staines has commercial guards so they will be the ones being trained currently.

If it stays at the current operation of driver open driver close then it is only a matter of time before local negotiations for SWRs 23/24 pay deal go down the southern route. A guard guaranteed onboard unless in special circumstances. How special those circumstances are will be anyone's guess?

Currently for the "soft launch" that is planned the guard just keys on at a local door and assess the platform for a passenger assistance then keys off.

Will that be the final operation? Who knows.

 

[Mainsideman]

Commercial guards are the first to be trained on them, staines has commercial guards so they will be the ones being trained currently.

If it stays at the current operation of driver open driver close then it is only a matter of time before local negotiations for SWRs 23/24 pay deal go down the southern route. A guard guaranteed onboard unless in special circumstances. How special those circumstances are will be anyone's guess?

Currently for the "soft launch" that is planned the guard just keys on at a local door and assess the platform for a passenger assistance then keys off.

Will that be the final operation? Who knows.

So its changed again and guards have no role in doors during degraded working?

 

[wickham]

There has been mention in this thread of Staines Guards being trained on 701s, but I don't recall anything about Drivers, except for Depot Drivers and Drivers Standards Managers (DSMs) being trained. Are any main line drivers being trained, surely they are not intendeing to start up using DSMs to drive these trains ?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

surely they are not intendeing to start up using DSMs to drive these trains ?

If it's a 'one off' working to meet contractual obligations, then a DSM will meet the requirements I would assume.

 

[Bessie]

I wonder if the 701's will have that new train smell

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I wonder if the 701's will have that new train smell

damp and musty from being stored so long

 

[Waterlemon]

There has been mention in this thread of Staines Guards being trained on 701s, but I don't recall anything about Drivers, except for Depot Drivers and Drivers Standards Managers (DSMs) being trained. Are any main line drivers being trained, surely they are not intendeing to start up using DSMs to drive these trains ?

Driver training course not agreed yet

 

[norbitonflyer]

Perhaps SWR should give up on the 701s and take on the Nova 3s instead, when TransPennine have done with them next week. They are technically newer after all - (first entry into service was August 2019, several months after the originally planned in-service date for the first 701s).

 

[Pete_uk]

I think they will need a few more than that!

 

[Fincra5]

Perhaps SWR should give up on the 701s and take on the Nova 3s instead, when TransPennine have done with them next week. They are technically newer after all - (first entry into service was August 2019, several months after the originally planned in-service date for the first 701s).

And the 442s... Its up there this Top-Notch Wibble that

 

[kw12]

There has been mention in this thread of Staines Guards being trained on 701s, but I don't recall anything about Drivers, except for Depot Drivers and Drivers Standards Managers (DSMs) being trained. Are any main line drivers being trained, surely they are not intendeing to start up using DSMs to drive these trains ?

The DI are also being trained, as mentioned in post #6,374. Thus some main line drivers are being trained, as the DI are main line drivers.

DI training has started though and that is a fact.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I wonder if the 701's will have that new train smell

+

damp and musty from being stored so long

Both I suspect but dominated by the the aroma of cheap air fresheners.

Any one seen if SWR have gone out to tender for an industrial quantity of air fresheners as that would be a clue to imminent use exposure of the 701s to passengers.....

 

[Bumpkin]

Driver training course not agreed yet

Have you got a source for that that you can share?

 

[SWT_USER]

Commercial guards are the first to be trained on them, staines has commercial guards so they will be the ones being trained currently.

If it stays at the current operation of driver open driver close then it is only a matter of time before local negotiations for SWRs 23/24 pay deal go down the southern route. A guard guaranteed onboard unless in special circumstances. How special those circumstances are will be anyone's guess?

Currently for the "soft launch" that is planned the guard just keys on at a local door and assess the platform for a passenger assistance then keys off.

Will that be the final operation? Who knows.

Don't SWR drivers already have DOO in their contracts? Guards could strike over it but presumably SWR could include DOO dispatch in 701 training course and just crack on anyway..

Back to topic - encouraging noises on this thread regarding a soft launch in the next couple of weeks. If it's confirmed when it will be then I'll try and get a run up to Windsor and back work permitting.

 

[vikingdriver]

Don't SWR drivers already have DOO in their contracts? Guards could strike over it but presumably SWR could include DOO dispatch in 701 training course and just crack on anyway..

Back to topic - encouraging noises on this thread regarding a soft launch in the next couple of weeks. If it's confirmed when it will be then I'll try and get a run up to Windsor and back work permitting.

No, they have DCO in their contracts.

 

[Monty]

Service entry is looking very likely soon at last.

I think that we will soon be moving on to the next big question which will be how long before the last 701 enters service - I really dread to think what state the longest stored 701s are in.

I'll believe it when I actually see it, still no indication when training for train crew will start properly. Last time I spoke to my company council rep there was still no agreement on the method of working and the reasons where degraded working would be employed.

If they run a train this year it will be a Christmas miracle and even then I suspect it will be with a driver and guards manager doing the train working.

 

[TEW]

There is agreement for the soft launch with a very limited number of drivers involved, but the full training course has yet to be agreed. I think we will see them in service this side of Christmas but squadron roll out does still seem a little way off.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is agreement for the soft launch with a very limited number of drivers involved, but the full training course has yet to be agreed. I think we will see them in service this side of Christmas but squadron roll out does still seem a little way off.

How exciting! Thrilled to be going back to SWR land for the holidays now.