Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[Peter Sarf]

In 1958 BR would swap over an entire depot from steam one day DMU the next oh and generally on improved timings as well

Ah but things are far more sophisticated (= amazingly complicated) these days !.

 

[norbitonflyer]

In 1958 BR would swap over an entire depot from steam one day DMU the next oh and generally on improved timings as well

Not the same depot, though. It would take more time than is available overnight to clear all the old trains out and drive the new ones in. But if, as was often the case, a new depot had been built for the DMUs, yes, it could be done.

 

[Energy]

indeed Mitrac electronics from Sweden - but don't (this is a question not a statement) Mitrac traction motors hail from the ADTranz German constituents even if supported from Sweden now ? 1990s mergers and takeovers were all a little incestuous as well as complexicated

I can't find much detail on this, other than mitrac as a whole has been handeled by Vasteras for a while.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not the same depot, though. It would take more time than is available overnight to clear all the old trains out and drive the new ones in. But if, as was often the case, a new depot had been built for the DMUs, yes, it could be done.

I appreciate im being a tad facetious but we need some drive and energy back in this industry to deliver things a lot quicker as that is how you keep industry costs down.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I've heard rumours the 458/4's will be used on Waterloo-Alton/Basingstoke services, instead of the Portsmouth route, because of less or quicker driver training and testing the 100mph re-gearing.

And had the people distributing these rumours also been made aware of SWR’s plans to simply not use them at all?

 

[swr444]

And had the people distributing these rumours also been made aware of SWR’s plans to simply not use them at all?

The MD said the other day they are not using them so

 

[CarrotPie]

And had the people distributing these rumours also been made aware of SWR’s plans to simply not use them at all?

It's the Plastic Pigs all over again...

 

[Invincible]

I can't see any (save for a front shot or two) that weren't there in 2022; certainly the interior shots are CGI. The fact that a lot of it is now out of fat (following entry into service) and the myriad grammatical errors leaves a lot to be desired...

So although the SWR Arterio webpage needs updating, the route map is still correct and they won't run to Alton.
Last year the local Alton website had a story about overcrowding on the Alton line (probably especially at Woking and Surbiton?)

Hope that new trains will improve Alton to London Waterloo service

Campaigners for better rail services are expecting improvements on the Alton to London Waterloo line following South Western Railway’s announcement that new trains are on the way.

www.altonherald.com

“Railfuture Wessex branch members have noticed some Class 450 trains in the Wessex branch area are getting overcrowded as they are running with fewer carriages, presumably because some of the carriages are diverted to South Western Railway metro services which were supposed to be operated by now with the new Arterios.
“South Western Railway have said they plan to start bringing in the new trains but they acknowledge they will have to run some short-formed trains until the Arterios come into service later this year.

So SWR are now considering using the refurbished 458s (12 car?) on the Alton and Basingstoke lines as a stopgap (rather than the PDL) until more Arterios rollout for the more inner London routes and more 450s can be released?
Also SWR have to lease the 458s till 2027. (Copied to the 458 thread)

 

[H&I]

Here is the full video of the inaugural journey from London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside and back! It is 4K 60 fps, and is also over two hours long!

 

[CarrotPie]

Also SWR have to lease the 458s till 2027.

Doesn't mean they have to use them in great quantities though.

 

[Goldfish62]

There's a separate thread for the 458s.

 

[D7666]

I can't find much detail on this, other than mitrac as a whole has been handeled by Vasteras for a while.

That make two of us then - as I been off looking too.

The SE contributor company based in Vasteras was ASEA; just at the back of my mind there is an AEG traction motor legacy in there somewhere.

AEG (part of Daimler Benz since 1985) got into the ABB group - ABB was a merger of ASEA and BBC (Brown Boveri) that also got swallowed by Daimler Benz.

I think the ABB traction (as opposed to train manufacture / assembly) bit did not go to Bombardier, as ABB still exist today - and are the class 88 and 93 motor makers (and other kit) - AEG Schienenfahrzeuge became ABB Daimler Benz Transportation (Adtranz) then to Bombardier a few years later - and I think that is the motors bit. Maybe.

I might be wrong. and anyway all it needs is a transfer of IP or manufacture from one site / country to another and it all gets clouded over.

Whatever, Vasteras is sure the home of Mitrac, and always has been, it is just where did all the different bits that make up the current Mitrac product range come from.


These incestuous company histories are nothing new or unique - the same thing occured with what led to GEC as it was in 1970s with all they acquired on the way, and then all that has happened since they broke up.

Also SWR have to lease the 458s till 2027.

Does not mean (i) contract can't be cancelled or (ii) they can't be sub leased.

 

[Snow1964]

More charges have been registered by Rock Rail on 11th January

701 : 009, 036, 039, 056, 515, 516,

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

ROCK RAIL SOUTH WESTERN PLC - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

So I think list of charges is now :

004, 006, 009, 011, 012, 013, 014, 015, 016, 017, 018, 019, 022, 023, 024, 025, 026, 027, 028, 029, 030, 031, 032, 033, 034, 035, 036, 037, 038, 039, 040, 041, 042, 043, 044, 045, 046, 047, 048, 049, 050, 051, 052, 054, 056, 508, 509, 510, 512, 515, 516

Missing units are
001-003, 005, 007-008, 010, 020-021, 053, 055, 057-060
501-507, 511, 513-514, 517-530

44 of 60 10car = 440 vehicles. 73.3%
6 of 30 5car = 30 vehicles. 20.0%
470 of 750 vehicles is 62.67%

 

[DMckduck97]

No. 450s will be used exclusively on London Waterloo to Portsmouth via Basingstoke and Guildford, London Waterloo to Alton and Basingstoke, Ascot to Aldershot (excluding through services), Farnham to Guildford, Winchester to Bournemouth stopping service, Brockenhurst to Lymington and Southampton to Portsmouth. Now that I’ve written that out and bearing in mind there are 127, it makes sense that SWR don’t think they’ll need the 458/4s as well.

There is no plan for basing guards/drivers to sign 701s, so 450s will be needed on both 2Sxx and 2Cxx at some point. Otherwise you lose a fair chunk of diversionary route knowledge via Chertsey and there certainly isn't enough top link Waterloo drivers to run all the diesel services via Chertsey during engineering weekends

Not running at weekends currently.


Well, in testing, especially during the early days, they've run on every section of electrified line.

We also have to remember that as per the 720s, there are likely to be surplus units unless SWR decide to restore services to pre-Covid levels, which seems a very remote possibility.

No chance of a pre covid timetable, SWR currently don't have enough guards to run the current service since the drop to 37 hour week.

The company want full crew working back now but just don't have the available resource.

 

[cactustwirly]

And had the people distributing these rumours also been made aware of SWR’s plans to simply not use them at all?

They have to use them for something, they can't just let them rot in a siding.

The leases are committed and they have to be handed back in perfect working order, ie they have to be kept warm for the remaining lease

 

[weeklycommuter]

So although the SWR Arterio webpage needs updating, the route map is still correct and they won't run to Alton.

The route map originally showing on the SWR website as shown in the following news article dated 22 January 2021 showed the Arterios running to Alton.

New £1bn fleet of South Western Railway trains delayed

Rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris says the 90 trains are not expected in service until early summer.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Boski]

There is no plan for basing guards/drivers to sign 701s, so 450s will be needed on both 2Sxx and 2Cxx at some point. Otherwise you lose a fair chunk of diversionary route knowledge via Chertsey and there certainly isn't enough top link Waterloo drivers to run all the diesel services via Chertsey during engineering weekends

Is their not enough woking and waterloo crew who sign the curve and use this stock on other routes to do the diversions? This would keep the desiros of the metro routes!

 

[wickham]

Ref: Post 7663, Thanks Snow1964 for this interesting post, but what exactly does this data reflect ? It appears to be the agreement date that each unit is financed by Deutshe Bank to Rock Rail South Western, but does it also reflect that the unit is now Rock Rail property from the date quoted and is paid for to the manufacturer ?
Nevertheless, it is all very interesting and one wonders if similar documents are freely avaliable for other fleets such as 720s ?

 

[dingdinger]

Is their not enough woking and waterloo crew who sign the curve and use this stock on other routes to do the diversions? This would keep the desiros of the metro routes!

Woking don't sign diesels

 

[Snow1964]

Ref: Post 7663, Thanks Snow1964 for this interesting post, but what exactly does this data reflect ? It appears to be the agreement date that each unit is financed by Deutshe Bank to Rock Rail South Western, but does it also reflect that the unit is now Rock Rail property from the date quoted and is paid for to the manufacturer ?
Nevertheless, it is all very interesting and one wonders if similar documents are freely avaliable for other fleets such as 720s ?

Clearly the units with charges are Rock Rail ownership. Charge is another name for a mortgage (mortgage can only be land and buildings).

Cannot mortgage something don't own, so they own the title. What it doesn't necessarily mean however is that they have fully paid for it, might be some outstanding stage payments (the actual contract is commercially sensitive so not in public domain), so no idea when payments are due.

Rock Rail is not part of a huge bank, some other LeaseCos are, and they don't need to file charges, as own group money, not borrowed money behind it. There are other Rock Rail companies, so might at some stage see similar for 810s etc.

 

[D7666]

The route map originally showing on the SWR website as shown in the following news article dated 22 January 2021 showed the Arterios running to Alton.

Which is not a particularly useful map to conclude much else as the area closer to London includes EVERY SWR route, and away from London it cuts off after Farnborough on SWML and after Milford on the Pompey Direct, and no services routinely end at either Milford or Farnborough, so inconclusive as to where the country destinations might be.

 

[Mcv378]

Here is the full video of the inaugural journey from London Waterloo to Windsor & Eton Riverside and back! It is 4K 60 fps, and is also over two hours long!

. (Still processing to 4K 60 fps)

An Excellent vide. The trains look very good inside and out.

 

[WWTownEnth]

What’s the plan tomorrow? Are two Waterloo to Windsor ER round trip services running as intended?

 

[43096]

What’s the plan tomorrow? Are two Waterloo to Windsor ER round trip services running as intended?

No, because it wasn't intended - Staines to Windsor is shut tomorrow for engineering work. As stated previously on this thread, it's Tuesday to Friday this week. Subject to the usual, of course.

 

[DCtrains]

I shouldn’t think so, unless a new capability of running on roads between SNS and WNR has magically been created

 

[swr444]

What’s the plan tomorrow? Are two Waterloo to Windsor ER round trip services running as intended?

No.. it's been mentioned multiple times that due to the line from staines to windsor being closed for engineering work tomorrow, there are no services.

 

[hwl]

That make two of us then - as I been off looking too.

The SE contributor company based in Vasteras was ASEA; just at the back of my mind there is an AEG traction motor legacy in there somewhere.

AEG (part of Daimler Benz since 1985) got into the ABB group - ABB was a merger of ASEA and BBC (Brown Boveri) that also got swallowed by Daimler Benz.

I think the ABB traction (as opposed to train manufacture / assembly) bit did not go to Bombardier, as ABB still exist today - and are the class 88 and 93 motor makers (and other kit) - AEG Schienenfahrzeuge became ABB Daimler Benz Transportation (Adtranz) then to Bombardier a few years later - and I think that is the motors bit. Maybe.

I might be wrong. and anyway all it needs is a transfer of IP or manufacture from one site / country to another and it all gets clouded over.

Whatever, Vasteras is sure the home of Mitrac, and always has been, it is just where did all the different bits that make up the current Mitrac product range come from.


These incestuous company histories are nothing new or unique - the same thing occured with what led to GEC as it was in 1970s with all they acquired on the way, and then all that has happened since they broke up.

It is fair a bit more complicated than that, but in brief before I write a full history:

By mid 1986 it was clear that most of the three phase drive vector control logic IP was going to reside with just BBC and Siemens and similarly that both would be significant players in the emerging IGBT technology that would succeed GTO.

ASEA and BBC announced the merger in 1987 which completed in early Jan 1988. ABB has always been independent (The Wallenberg family trust sharing holding and board seat from the ASEA era help ensure this) but it has done joint ventures.

Late 1980s ABB Zurich start developing a sophisticated network based locomotive control system call MICAS-S (Modular Integrated Control and Advisory System), this goes on from the basis for the later MITRAC control system elements.

In 1989/1990 ABB bought long term collaborators Henschel from Thyssen (Henschel were also long term Daimler Benz partners for HGVs and in even longer terms on the Tiger 2). The Henschel brought with them a bogie plant in Siegen.

In 1991 AEG (owned by Daimler-Benz) bought back some the former East German assets of AEG (e.g LEW Hennigsdorf) that had been nationalised without compensation by East Germany in 1947/48.

From 1991 ABB develop the Lok2000 locomotive platform that ends up forming the basis for numerous locomotives across Europe e.g. Cl 92 and Eurotunnel shuttle locos in the UK (both use MICAS-S).

In 1992 ABB bought parts of BREL and various other BR assets.

BBC and AEG (West Germany) started working together on projects in the late 1970s e.g. DB class 120 and then again intensively in the 1990s, this became formalised as the ADtranz joint venture in 1995. ABB Daimler Benz Transportation with the s transposed to z for branding reasons (A to Z). (Siemens and Krauss-Maffei had been cooperating for very long time so AEG didn't have any real options there)

Daimler Benz also owned MTU hence MTU engine choice for virtually all rolling stock apart from a locomotive last mile range extender engine from Deutz (the later which Stadler later copied for the Flirts).

ABB sold its 50% stake in ADtranz to Daimler Benz in 1999. ABB and ADtranz (and ADtranz successors Bombardier and Alstom) continued to coexist at many joint locations that were ABB locations pre JV: Zurich, Vasteras, Mannheim, Vienna (all still actively involved for both companies) and part of the Vienna operation were later sold off by Bombardier and became TSA. (The AEG East German motor factory at Hennisgdorf near Berlin was retained in preference to the Vienna motor factory)

In 2000 Daimler Benz agreed to sell Adtranz to Bombardier. Bombardier had already been buying up European rail manufacturers (e.g. B&N in Belgium - Voyagers and Meridian) and IP (BR). The sale completed in 2001.

In circa 2003 Bombardier did some (re-)branding coming up with MITRAC (Modular Integrated Traction System) to describe the control and electrical system packages.

The Mitrac product range is split into three with 3 technical centres leading each area:

There are three traction centres of excellence for different end usage product areas (not necessarily production locations which tend to focus by type of part e.g. TCMS electronics (but not software) in Mannheim, motors in Hennigsdorf )
Trams - 1xxx Mitrac products Mannheim
EMUs - 2xxx Mitrac products Vasteras e.g. Electrostar and Aventra
Loco and high power high speed - 3xxx Mitrac products: Zurich e.g. Traxx

Most of the volume is 2xxx series products hence Vasteras being mostly seen as the MITRAC lead (especially in the UK).

ABB retain rail design and manufacturing centres in Vasteras and just outside Zurich. The now former ABB transformers business (ABB-Secheron that supplies most rail transformers in Europe) and ABB Integrated Circuits (used in the Power electronics) were sold to Hitachi in 2021 but are still Headquartered and manufactured in Switzerland. Stadler electricals are effectively always ABB with either ABB or TSA traction motors.

 

[Waterlemon]

I shouldn’t think so, unless a new capability of running on roads between SNS and WNR has magically been created

That was part of ABDO so sadly not coming anytime soon

 

[D7666]

It is fair a bit more complicated than that, but in brief before I write a full history:

By mid 1986 it was clear that most of the three phase drive vector control logic IP was going to reside with just BBC and Siemens and similarly that both would be significant players in the emerging IGBT technology that would succeed GTO.

ASEA and BBC announced the merger in 1987 which completed in early Jan 1988. ABB has always been independent (The Wallenberg family trust sharing holding and board seat from the ASEA era help ensure this) but it has done joint ventures.

Late 1980s ABB Zurich start developing a sophisticated network based locomotive control system call MICAS-S (Modular Integrated Control and Advisory System), this goes on from the basis for the later MITRAC control system elements.

In 1989/1990 ABB bought long term collaborators Henschel from Thyssen (Henschel were also long term Daimler Benz partners for HGVs and in even longer terms on the Tiger 2). The Henschel brought with them a bogie plant in Siegen.

In 1991 AEG (owned by Daimler-Benz) bought back some the former East German assets of AEG (e.g LEW Hennigsdorf) that had been nationalised without compensation by East Germany in 1947/48.

From 1991 ABB develop the Lok2000 locomotive platform that ends up forming the basis for numerous locomotives across Europe e.g. Cl 92 and Eurotunnel shuttle locos in the UK (both use MICAS-S).

In 1992 ABB bought parts of BREL and various other BR assets.

BBC and AEG (West Germany) started working together on projects in the late 1970s e.g. DB class 120 and then again intensively in the 1990s, this became formalised as the ADtranz joint venture in 1995. ABB Daimler Benz Transportation with the s transposed to z for branding reasons (A to Z). (Siemens and Krauss-Maffei had been cooperating for very long time so AEG didn't have any real options there)

Daimler Benz also owned MTU hence MTU engine choice for virtually all rolling stock apart from a locomotive last mile range extender engine from Deutz (the later which Stadler later copied for the Flirts).

ABB sold its 50% stake in ADtranz to Daimler Benz in 1999. ABB and ADtranz (and ADtranz successors Bombardier and Alstom) continued to coexist at many joint locations that were ABB locations pre JV: Zurich, Vasteras, Mannheim, Vienna (all still actively involved for both companies) and part of the Vienna operation were later sold off by Bombardier and became TSA. (The AEG East German motor factory at Hennisgdorf near Berlin was retained in preference to the Vienna motor factory)

In 2000 Daimler Benz agreed to sell Adtranz to Bombardier. Bombardier had already been buying up European rail manufacturers (e.g. B&N in Belgium - Voyagers and Meridian) and IP (BR). The sale completed in 2001.

In circa 2003 Bombardier did some (re-)branding coming up with MITRAC (Modular Integrated Traction System) to describe the control and electrical system packages.

The Mitrac product range is split into three with 3 technical centres leading each area:

There are three traction centres of excellence for different end usage product areas (not necessarily production locations which tend to focus by type of part e.g. TCMS electronics (but not software) in Mannheim, motors in Hennigsdorf )
Trams - 1xxx Mitrac products Mannheim
EMUs - 2xxx Mitrac products Vasteras e.g. Electrostar and Aventra
Loco and high power high speed - 3xxx Mitrac products: Zurich e.g. Traxx

Most of the volume is 2xxx series products hence Vasteras being mostly seen as the MITRAC lead (especially in the UK).

ABB retain rail design and manufacturing centres in Vasteras and just outside Zurich. The now former ABB transformers business (ABB-Secheron that supplies most rail transformers in Europe) and ABB Integrated Circuits (used in the Power electronics) were sold to Hitachi in 2021 but are still Headquartered and manufactured in Switzerland. Stadler electricals are effectively always ABB with either ABB or TSA traction motors.

thanks for that lot

"motors in Hennigsdorf" is the key text for my comment about the legacy of Mitrac motors - Hennigsdorf being ex AEG, which is where I thought they descend from, and the production point of view.

 

[Dan G]

It is fair a bit more complicated than that, but in brief before I write a full history:

By mid 1986 it was clear that most of the three phase drive vector control logic IP was going to reside with just BBC and Siemens and similarly that both would be significant players in the emerging IGBT technology that would succeed GTO.

ASEA and BBC announced the merger in 1987 which completed in early Jan 1988. ABB has always been independent (The Wallenberg family trust sharing holding and board seat from the ASEA era help ensure this) but it has done joint ventures.

Late 1980s ABB Zurich start developing a sophisticated network based locomotive control system call MICAS-S (Modular Integrated Control and Advisory System), this goes on from the basis for the later MITRAC control system elements.

In 1989/1990 ABB bought long term collaborators Henschel from Thyssen (Henschel were also long term Daimler Benz partners for HGVs and in even longer terms on the Tiger 2). The Henschel brought with them a bogie plant in Siegen.

In 1991 AEG (owned by Daimler-Benz) bought back some the former East German assets of AEG (e.g LEW Hennigsdorf) that had been nationalised without compensation by East Germany in 1947/48.

From 1991 ABB develop the Lok2000 locomotive platform that ends up forming the basis for numerous locomotives across Europe e.g. Cl 92 and Eurotunnel shuttle locos in the UK (both use MICAS-S).

In 1992 ABB bought parts of BREL and various other BR assets.

BBC and AEG (West Germany) started working together on projects in the late 1970s e.g. DB class 120 and then again intensively in the 1990s, this became formalised as the ADtranz joint venture in 1995. ABB Daimler Benz Transportation with the s transposed to z for branding reasons (A to Z). (Siemens and Krauss-Maffei had been cooperating for very long time so AEG didn't have any real options there)

Daimler Benz also owned MTU hence MTU engine choice for virtually all rolling stock apart from a locomotive last mile range extender engine from Deutz (the later which Stadler later copied for the Flirts).

ABB sold its 50% stake in ADtranz to Daimler Benz in 1999. ABB and ADtranz (and ADtranz successors Bombardier and Alstom) continued to coexist at many joint locations that were ABB locations pre JV: Zurich, Vasteras, Mannheim, Vienna (all still actively involved for both companies) and part of the Vienna operation were later sold off by Bombardier and became TSA. (The AEG East German motor factory at Hennisgdorf near Berlin was retained in preference to the Vienna motor factory)

In 2000 Daimler Benz agreed to sell Adtranz to Bombardier. Bombardier had already been buying up European rail manufacturers (e.g. B&N in Belgium - Voyagers and Meridian) and IP (BR). The sale completed in 2001.

In circa 2003 Bombardier did some (re-)branding coming up with MITRAC (Modular Integrated Traction System) to describe the control and electrical system packages.

The Mitrac product range is split into three with 3 technical centres leading each area:

There are three traction centres of excellence for different end usage product areas (not necessarily production locations which tend to focus by type of part e.g. TCMS electronics (but not software) in Mannheim, motors in Hennigsdorf )
Trams - 1xxx Mitrac products Mannheim
EMUs - 2xxx Mitrac products Vasteras e.g. Electrostar and Aventra
Loco and high power high speed - 3xxx Mitrac products: Zurich e.g. Traxx

Most of the volume is 2xxx series products hence Vasteras being mostly seen as the MITRAC lead (especially in the UK).

ABB retain rail design and manufacturing centres in Vasteras and just outside Zurich. The now former ABB transformers business (ABB-Secheron that supplies most rail transformers in Europe) and ABB Integrated Circuits (used in the Power electronics) were sold to Hitachi in 2021 but are still Headquartered and manufactured in Switzerland. Stadler electricals are effectively always ABB with either ABB or TSA traction motors.

Amazing post!