Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

[cactustwirly]

Same here, it's not fun to see so many parked up and then get on a rancid 455.

That's a load of hyperbole, there are much worse trains than a 455. The refurb was done to a high standard and aren't that much different to a 701 in reality. The seats are basically the same, you're just getting plug doors and aircon in a newer shell.

 

[Peter Wilde]

Going well for 2U93, just spent 25 minutes sat at Wraysbury as Datchet crossing is broken. Will be interesting to see how much time it makes up on the return.

Happens (maybe too often). Are the toilets working?

The 455 original vs refurb debate will always divide opinion. Points on both sides. I was at first dead against the reduced number of seats but was eventually won over. At least SWT’s new interiors made it clear the trains were being looked after.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That's a load of hyperbole, there are much worse trains than a 455. The refurb was done to a high standard and aren't that much different to a 701 in reality.

Twenty years ago. If that's hyperbole, your recent rant about the Voyagers is something else. At least they have air conditioning and toilets, for Pete's sake.

 

[cactustwirly]

Twenty years ago. If that's hyperbole, your recent rant about the Voyagers is really something else then. At least they have air conditioning and toilets, for Pete's sake.

Aircon is only relevant for a few months of the year, certainly not now when we're in winter.
I don't see how lack of toilets is a problem when 345s do longer journeys without them, they are metro units after all.

There's no significant difference to the layout of the interior or the type of seats. The interior is also in a lot better state than the Meridians or some of the 170s with EMR.

In some ways yes a 701 is an improvement, but the 455s are still perfectly acceptable units there is nothing "rancid" about them

I would say they are better than most of the northern DMUs

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Aircon is only relevant for a few months of the year, certainly not now when we're in winter.

Yep, instead we get freezing cold trains with no temperature control.

 

[cvinall]

Aircon is only relevant for a few months of the year, certainly not now when we're in winter.
I don't see how lack of toilets is a problem when 345s do longer journeys without them, they are metro units after all.

There's no significant difference to the layout of the interior or the type of seats. The interior is also in a lot better state than the Meridians or some of the 170s with EMR.

In some ways yes a 701 is an improvement, but the 455s are still perfectly acceptable units there is nothing "rancid" about them

I would say they are better than most of the northern DMUs

As a regular traveller on the New Guildford line, I can speak from experience when I say that the lack of air-con feels like torture in the summer, and it’s disappointing that the 701s will displace air-con stock on the Windsor lines before the 455s. You can work around the lack of toilets, but the summer conditions are an endurance test. And I’m paying handsomely for the pleasure. For the last few years, every summer has been made slightly less dismal by the hope that it would be the last one with a compulsory sticky sauna after a days work. The continued failures on so many sides to get 701s running feels like a betrayal, as a paying customer.

 

[73128]

I understand that 017, 031, 042 (in that order) will be the next sets into public service, after checks and a trial run.

Are the toilets working?

Yes they are. Although like the Anglia class 720 sets the water is too close to the front of the basin and so gets too easily onto the floor. And several Anglia sets already have no soap because the dispenser's handle is too flimsy and broken off.

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely all this talk on this thread of how awful / great the 455s are and why is irrelevant because they're going soonish, and had things gone to plan would have already gone a few years ago.

Let's get back to 701s.

Yes they are. Although like the Anglia class 720 sets the water is too close to the front of the basin and so gets too easily onto the floor.

Yes, I've noticed that when using them (on both 701s and 720s).

 

[nlogax]

Surely all this talk on this thread of how awful / great the 455s are and why is irrelevant because they're going soonish, and had things gone to plan would have already gone a few years ago.

Quite. 455s had their place but they'll soon be history. Finally.

Should I find myself at a rare loose end in zone 1 in coming weeks, is Waterloo to Windsor my only route option in order get a 701 trip?

 

[GW43125]

Should I find myself at a rare loose end in zone 1 in coming weeks, is Waterloo to Windsor my only route option in order get a 701 trip?

Yes. Just 10.25 & 12.53 departures from Waterloo, and 11.30 & 14.00 departures from Windsor, Mon-Fri, at present.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Quite. 455s had their place but they'll soon be history. Finally.

Should I find myself at a rare loose end in zone 1 in coming weeks, is Waterloo to Windsor my only route option in order get a 701 trip?

Yes - look for 2U91, 2U92, 2U93 & 2U94. Also peruse Part Time Spotter as that reports the unit number if you need to know.

EDIT
@GW43125 beat me to it.

 

[Elorith]

I'm sure that SWR could run a 30 coach train and some of the comedians who commute in on them would still insist on squeezing themselves into the same carriage just to be in the place closest their destination station egress point causing numerous minutes of delay

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm sure that SWR could run a 30 coach train and some of the comedians who commute in on them would still insist on squeezing themselves into the same carriage just to be in the place closest their destination station egress point causing numerous minutes of delay

As mentioned on another thread, at least one passenger advised the ‘meet the manager’ tesm shortly after the 10 car SW suburban project was finished that SWR had put the extra 2 coaches at the wrong end of the train…

 

[nlogax]

Yes - look for 2U91, 2U92, 2U93 & 2U94. Also peruse Part Time Spotter as that reports the unit number if you need to know.

EDIT
@GW43125 beat me to it.

Excellent, thank you both!

 

[norbitonflyer]

As mentioned on another thread, at least one passenger advised the ‘meet the manager’ tesm shortly after the 10 car SW suburban project was finished that SWR had put the extra 2 coaches at the wrong end of the train…

I hadn't heard that one, but it is certainly true that 8-car trains are stopping at the wrong end of the platform at Raynes Park and Kingston (furthest from the stairs), encouraging even more people to squeeze into the rear carriage at Waterloo. At least that nonsense will end when all trains are 10-car.

 

[infobleep]

As mentioned on another thread, at least one passenger advised the ‘meet the manager’ tesm shortly after the 10 car SW suburban project was finished that SWR had put the extra 2 coaches at the wrong end of the train…

I love it. Sounds like something out of Monty Python.

Well, whenever I was on a stoppong train from either Guildford or Woking to London Waterloo, they were usually busy at the back during the morning rush hour.

If the 701s are better at dealing with leaves, how bad is the leaf fall problem on the Windsor line?

 

[boiledbeans2]

I hadn't heard that one, but it is certainly true that 8-car trains are stopping at the wrong end of the platform at Raynes Park and Kingston (furthest from the stairs), encouraging even more people to squeeze into the rear carriage at Waterloo. At least that nonsense will end when all trains are 10-car.

If I remember correctly, it's similar for Wimbledon, a very busy station. An up train stops furthest away from the stairs. So you will see a lot of running from the stairs to the rear carriage.

 

[43066]

As mentioned on another thread, at least one passenger advised the ‘meet the manager’ tesm shortly after the 10 car SW suburban project was finished that SWR had put the extra 2 coaches at the wrong end of the train…

Jesus .

I hadn't heard that one, but it is certainly true that 8-car trains are stopping at the wrong end of the platform at Raynes Park and Kingston (furthest from the stairs), encouraging even more people to squeeze into the rear carriage at Waterloo. At least that nonsense will end when all trains are 10-car.

I expect what’s happening is that 8 car trains are stopping at the correct stop car mark, which happens to be colocated with the 10 car board.

All trains starting from London terminals, with passenger access from the buffer stops end of the platform, suffer from the problem of more people squeezing into the rear most carriages.

 

[SEtrains]

I understand that 017, 031, 042 (in that order) will be the next sets into public service, after checks and a trial run.

017 is the next unit for service?
I was told that 036 was the next unit for service and that it was fit for service.

Since there are now 4(nearly 5) 701s that can be used in public use surely there will be new diagrams coming soon right?

 

[absolutelymilk]

I suspect what’s happening is that 8 car trains are stopping at the correct stop car mark, which happens to be colocated with the 10 car board.

All trains starting from London terminals, with passenger access from the buffer stops end of the platform, suffer from the problem of more people squeezing into the rear most carriages.

Isn't the solution to move the 8 car board rearwards so that people spread themselves further forwards? Or does that cause other issues?

 

[norbitonflyer]

I expect what’s happening is that 8 car trains are stopping at the correct stop car mark, which happens to be colocated with the 10 car board.

All trains starting from London terminals, with passenger access from the buffer stops end of the platform, suffer from the problem of more people squeezing into the rear most carriages.

That is what is happening, but only because the 8-car mark has been removed.

Yes, a busy rear carriage is to be expected, but it is made worse because platforms are announced at Waterloo so late, meaning that there is not time for people to distribute themselves along the platform before the train arrives, and also because the exits at two of the busiest stations - Raynes Park and Kingston - are now adjacent to the eighth carriage of the train instead of the antepenultimate (i.e the sixth of an eight car train), so regulars tend to go for that carriage in order to be ahead of the scrum at the barrier (especially at Kingston where there are far fewer gates than needed). Also at Kingtson it puts the rear carriage next to the narrowest part of the platform, making it difficult for anyone trying to join the train to fight their way past the people leaving it. And it means that less of the train is under the platform canopy.

There is a related issue at Wimbledon, where the platform exits are at the country end of the platforms - that is, the rear for up trains. Staff can shout all they like for intending passengers to move down the platform, but regulars know the only chance of getting on a peak hour service is to wait near the entrance, because most people alighting at Wimbledon (a lot do, to change for the Tube, trams or Thameslink) will be in the rear carriage in order to be first up the stairs - queuing to get off the platform, and possibly missing your connection, being the norm there because the stairs are so narrow. A second bridge is badly needed there.

Isn't the solution to move the 8 car board rearwards so that people spread themselves further forwards? Or does that cause other issues?

There isn't an 8-car board. There used to be, but it was removed a few years ago. No-one knows why.

I was given an excuse that drivers might forget how long their train was and stop in the wrong place, but that doesn't explain why there is still a 4/5 car board. And surely, a driver is hardly likely to forget whether he is driving a 455 or 450, rather than a 458, 701 or 707. (I suppose when 456s were still around, there was a possibility of a driver in a 455 cab forgetting whether he had a 456 on the back, but that is why guards have been kept on SWR - so they can check the train is fully on the platform before releasing the doors)

 

[GW43125]

I was given an excuse that drivers might forget how long their train was and stop in the wrong place, but that doesn't explain why there is still a 4/5 car board. And surely, a driver is hardly likely to forget whether he is driving a 455 or 450, rather than a 458, 701 or 707. (I suppose when 456s were still around, there was a possibility of a driver in a 455 cab forgetting whether he had a 456 on the back, but that is why guards have been kept on SWR - so they can check the train is fully on the platform before releasing the doors)

At the risk of digging up an old debate, I refuse to believe it's beyond the realms of possibility to have a system similar to London underground's CSDE (correct side door enabling), which won't let you release the doors if you stop short/on the wrong side

 

[73128]

Jesus .



I expect what’s happening is that 8 car trains are stopping at the correct stop car mark, which happens to be colocated with the 10 car board.

All trains starting from London terminals, with passenger access from the buffer stops end of the platform, suffer from the problem of more people squeezing into the rear most carriages.

although in 701s it's a lot easier to walk through.

 

[hwl]

At the risk of digging up an old debate, I refuse to believe it's beyond the realms of possibility to have a system similar to London underground's CSDE (correct side door enabling), which won't let you release the doors if you stop short/on the wrong side

Which is fitted to GTR's 377s (retrofitted - but an easy retrofit) 387s 700 and 717s.
455, 450 and 444 would be much harder to retrofit as the doors aren't individually addressable

 

[TEW]

Isn't the solution to move the 8 car board rearwards so that people spread themselves further forwards? Or does that cause other issues?

The 8 car boards were slowly removed and relocated with the 10-car boards at most stations as 10-car trains rolled out on the Suburban network to mitigate against the risk of stop shorts. There's a lot of stations where that means 8-car trains no longer stop in the ideal location.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The 8 car boards were slowly removed and relocated with the 10-car boards at most stations as 10-car trains rolled out on the Suburban network to mitigate against the risk of stop shorts. There's a lot of stations where that means 8-car trains no longer stop in the ideal location.

Unfortunately, since that happened, the 456s, 707s and more than 25% of the 458/5s have been withdrawn from SWR, meaning that most trains are now 8 car again (455s or the occasional 450).

 

[43066]

That is what is happening, but only because the 8-car mark has been removed.

So the trains are stopping at the correct place on the platform, as I suspected.

Yes, a busy rear carriage is to be expected, but it is made worse because platforms are announced at Waterloo so late, meaning that there is not time for people to distribute themselves along the platform before the train arrives, and also because the exits at two of the busiest stations - Raynes Park and Kingston - are now adjacent to the eighth carriage of the train instead of the antepenultimate (i.e the sixth of an eight car train), so regulars tend to go for that carriage in order to be ahead of the scrum at the barrier (especially at Kingston where there are far fewer gates than needed). Also at Kingtson it puts the rear carriage next to the narrowest part of the platform, making it difficult for anyone trying to join the train to fight their way past the people leaving it. And it means that less of the train is under the platform canopy.

I think you’re massively overthinking (and trying to apportion blame) for what is ordinary passenger behaviour, observable all over the network. This won’t stop with the 701s coming in.

The majority of passengers don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of stopping points. Nobody is going to choose to travel in a more crowded part of the train just to save themselves a walk or two car lengths! What they will do is join the rear of the train because they can’t be bothered to walk up, or because they’re arriving at the last minute.

There isn't an 8-car board. There used to be, but it was removed a few years ago. No-one knows why.

Some people will know why. The likely reason was given by @TEW, exactly the same one I suspected.

although in 701s it's a lot easier to walk through.

Yes true although it’s amazing to observe that, even on walk through stock with loading indicators (700s, 345s), many people will still cluster around “busy” areas and won’t bother to walk through. It’s just human nature.

 

[TEW]

Unfortunately, since that happened, the 456s, 707s and more than 25% of the 458/5s have been withdrawn from SWR, meaning that most trains are now 8 car again (455s or the occasional 450).

Yes, although the 701s will solve the issue and there's no point changing them for a short period just to change them back again.

 

[norbitonflyer]

So the trains are stopping at the correct place on the platform, as I suspected.

If by "correct" you mean "prescribed" But that assumes the person doing the prescribing had any thought for the passengers convenience. Indeed, tghere is a passenger safety issue as all passengers have to pass along a narrow platform next to a drop onto the track (where the rear two cars of the train should be)

The majority of passengers don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of stopping points. Nobody is going to choose to travel in a more crowded part of the train just to save themselves a walk or two car lengths! What they will do is join the rear of the train because they can’t be bothered to walk up, or because they’re arriving at the last minute.

The majority of rush hour passenegers are well aware of the layout of the station at their destination.

It's not the saving of a 40 metre walk - its the saving of several minutes at the destination by being at the head of the rush for the ticket barriers. (Kingston is one of the worst for this - the redesign in 2010 actually made things worse, and because in the current timetable up and down trains are only a few minutes apart (and there is a busy counterpeak flow as the town is a major education, shopping and business centre) there is always a scrum.

And at Waterloo everyone arrives at the last minute because platforms are announced so late - indeed, at the worst possible moment, just as the train is pulling in - so by the time you've foughht your way against the tide of incoming passengers there isn't time to get to the front of the train anyway.
The less fleet of foot frequently couldn't board at all, as the rear carriage was sardine-full and the dispatchers would rather blow a whistle in your ear than give you time to get further down the train.

 

[SWT_USER]

A few weeks on now from the initial launch, the units themselves seem to be performing well - how close are we to having a proper all day diagram on the Windsor side?