Class 707 to Southeastern Dates

[Goldfish62]

Pretty amazing how the unloved 458s were threatened with being parked up because they were so poor. A stay of execution occurred and they Siemensised and allegedly became the best DC trains ever (well nearly !!).
Al of a sudden, a change of franchise and they become the most unreliable again.

What are we to believe ?
Where's Captain Deltic when we need him >

Um - got nothing to do with the change of franchise. If you followed Captain Deltic you'd know that reliability plummeted when they were extended to five coaches several years ago.

 

[43096]

Um - got nothing to do with the change of franchise. If you followed Captain Deltic you'd know that reliability plummeted when they were extended to five coaches several years ago.

Yes, but reliability was rising again as SWT/Wimbledon sorted them out. Gone backwards under SWR, unsurprisingly - so the franchise change has made a (negative) difference, as it has with other fleets.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, but reliability was rising again as SWT/Wimbledon sorted them out. Gone backwards under SWR, unsurprisingly - so the franchise change has made a (negative) difference, as it has with other fleets.

Yes, that's true, but we can only speculate where reliability would be now. Given the performance of the 707s Wimbledon does not seem to have been impacted by SWR's maintenance regime to the same degree as other depots.

 

[Mikey C]

Has the transfer of the 707s actually been properly announced? It was talked about back in April, but I don't recall a formal announcement of what the arrangement actually would be

 

[Goldfish62]

Has the transfer of the 707s actually been properly announced? It was talked about back in April, but I don't recall a formal announcement of what the arrangement actually would be

Depends what you regard as properly announced. DfT and Southeastern have both issued press releases and Southeastern put an artist's impression of one in SE livery on Twitter. I'd regard all that as properly announced.

 

[Sean Davidson]

A 707 made it to Southampton on a passenger working on at least one occasion, I wonder if a 707 will do London to Margate or Hastings?

 

[FlippyFF]

The Go-Ahead 'News across the group' newsletter (click here) dated July 2020 says...

Southeastern is set to welcome an all-new fleet to its network, thanks to the forthcoming transfer of thirty Class 707 trains from South Western Railway. The ultra-modern units, which feature air conditioning and a spacious walk-through design, can accommodate a massive 1,426 passengers - significantly more than the existing Networker units, which are currently in use on various metro routes through London.
Whilst a date for the transfer is yet to be confirmed, a range of preparation work is in the pipeline for the new arrivals - from Driver and Engineer training, to the development of maintenance facilities, and detailed assessments of the stations at which the trains will call.

The accompanying artists impression picture shows a unit (with oddly placed wheels) in dark blue with light blue doors.

 

[DorkingMain]

A 707 made it to Southampton on a passenger working on at least one occasion, I wonder if a 707 will do London to Margate or Hastings?

They don't have toilets, so I suspect they will be subject to the same limitations as 376s

 

[MatthewRead]

They don't have toilets, so I suspect they will be subject to the same limitations as 376s

But didn't a 376 once make it to Chart Leacon depot in Ashford?

 

[supervc-10]

Aren't they 'pre-wired' (or perhaps pre-plumbed!) for the toilets though?

 

[brad465]

Aren't they 'pre-wired' (or perhaps pre-plumbed!) for the toilets though?

I believe they are, however given the current franchise operators do not have a long term contract in place, I doubt they would want to go to the trouble of installing them when they might not hold the franchise much longer, especially as the latest extension keeps on ticking through with no confirmation of when 707s will actually move across.

 

[Hophead]

Crikey! 1,426 passengers in a 5-car unit. That's some crush-loading. And, as for a pair coupled together......

 

[DorkingMain]

They are exceptionally spacious units. 1,426 seems optimistic though.

And yes, they have at least some of the pipework etc for fitting toilets, but I doubt SE will want to do so for metro work.

 

[Hophead]

They are exceptionally spacious units. 1,426 seems optimistic though.

And yes, they have at least some of the pipework etc for fitting toilets, but I doubt SE will want to do so for metro work.

Well, yes, 1426 is obviously the loading for a pair. These units are clearly an interim fix while they work out a longer-term rolling-stock strategy.

 

[DorkingMain]

Read an article today that said officially the lease for the 707s will go to Southeastern next year, but they will be sub-leased to SWR in the meantime. It also said the order of disposal would be 458 > 455/456 > 707 (as I said before). Not sure if anyone is able to find the article?

 

[Goldfish62]

Read an article today that said officially the lease for the 707s will go to Southeastern next year, but they will be sub-leased to SWR in the meantime. It also said the order of disposal would be 458 > 455/456 > 707 (as I said before). Not sure if anyone is able to find the article?

It's on the Modern Railways website.

 

[Mikey C]

The Go-Ahead 'News across the group' newsletter (click here) dated July 2020 says...



The accompanying artists impression picture shows a unit (with oddly placed wheels) in dark blue with light blue doors.

Interesting definition of "all new"

1426 passengers sounds dubious too, especially with the lack of roof mounted handrails

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting definition of "all new"

1426 passengers sounds dubious too, especially with the lack of roof mounted handrails

The SWR franchise agreement had the capacity per 5 car as somewhat less, 271 seats, 320 standing, 591 Total. Maybe they found a new way of measuring floor (standing) space...

 

[3141]

The SWR franchise agreement had the capacity per 5 car as slightly less, 271 seats, 320 standing, 591 Total. Maybe they found a new way of measuring floor (standing) space...

Interesting that, because of those figures, the 707s were considered to be unsuitable for meeting the capacity requirements in the South Western tender document.

It seems to occur quite often that something is stated as a definite fact, but later turns out to be different. A few years back it was said to be impossible to design a new DMU within the British loading gauge that could meet emissions requirements. And then somebody produced one...

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting that, because of those figures, the 707s were considered to be unsuitable for meeting the capacity requirements in the South Western tender document.

It seems to occur quite often that something is stated as a definite fact, but later turns out to be different. A few years back it was said to be impossible to design a new DMU within the British loading gauge that could meet emissions requirements. And then somebody produced one...

The Department for Moving Goalposts strikes again!

 

[Bigfoot]

1426 passengers sounds dubious too, especially with the lack of roof mounted handrails

You don't need handrails if you're sandwiched in that tightly...

 

[Mikey C]

The SWR franchise agreement had the capacity per 5 car as somewhat less, 271 seats, 320 standing, 591 Total. Maybe they found a new way of measuring floor (standing) space...

I've always been sceptical about comparative capacity numbers when they include standing, as come to the crunch you can cram crazy numbers of people on board, but it's not a realistic number to use as a benchmark...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Do you have a source on this? I thought they would be the first due to having another operator ready for them.

Watching this video uploaded by Modern railways onto Vimeo about 701 introduction

https://vimeo.com/452208541

Neil Hendy, SWR Engineering Director lists 458's as the first to go followed by 455/456 then 707's. Importantly though he qualifies this by saying 707's are a sub lease to SE and they have to be released by a definitive time (which he doesn't declare) so then goes onto say they may leave inter dispersed with the other units.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've always been sceptical about comparative capacity numbers when they include standing, as come to the crunch you can cram crazy numbers of people on board, but it's not a realistic number to use as a benchmark...

The figure they give is only really a notional standing capacity for comparison between classes, based on a calculation of 3 or 4 per sq m. As you suggest people will just get on if they think they can. Maybe they should just state what that particular area is...

There‘s a possibility, that we discussed in the 701 thread in early 2019, that the 707 capacity was being quoted based on SWT’s original optimistic publicity. Certainly wiki had completely different figures, which were much higher.

I’ll try and find the exact post:

Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway

5 car 710 has 269 seats - almost exactly the same number of seats, as a 458/5 (270) and a 707 (271). 10 car 710 has 546 seats That’s nothing like 20% less than the 455+455+456 combination, which DfT reckon is 591 (238+238+115). More like 8% less - exaggeration doesn’t help the discussion...

www.railforums.co.uk

post #451 and follow ups discuss the variable numbers...

 

[hwl]

The figure they give is only really a notional standing capacity for comparison between classes, based on a calculation of 3 or 4 per sq m. As you suggest people will just get on if they think they can. Maybe they should just state what that particular area is...

There‘s a possibility, that we discussed in the 701 thread in early 2019, that the 707 capacity was being quoted based on SWT’s original optimistic publicity, which someone had found on the internet archive.
I’ll try and find the exact post.

The older definitions for standing were a bit nebulous and not always realistic. Post 707s DfT put some more useful definition in place (e.g. adequate hand holds provision, minimum dimensions for usable standing space, vestibule dimension requirements, door width).

Watching this video uploaded by Modern railways onto Vimeo about 701 introduction

https://vimeo.com/452208541

Neil Hendy, SWR Engineering Director lists 458's as the first to go followed by 455/457 then 707's. Importantly though he qualifies this by saying 707's are a sub lease to SE and they have to be released by a definitive time (which he doesn't declare) so then goes onto say they may leave inter dispersed with the other units.

A few units leaving early for maintenance staff familiarisation and initial driver training would be normal.

The key bit for SW users is that the 707 should only start to drift off to SE when the initial 35 or so 455s have gone so SWR can always have 10car services with the remaining 455s/456s.

 

[Class 170101]

Well, yes, 1426 is obviously the loading for a pair. These units are clearly an interim fix while they work out a longer-term rolling-stock strategy.

Not with social distancing it won't be.

 

[Owen31]

With respect, they are really struggling with reliability.

You only have to go past Wimbledon depot to see that

 

[Chiltern006]

It shouldn't be too long until they start leaving SWR, they are the first to leave and 701s have started deliveries and tests. Still be a while as SE will need to train its staff.

hopefully they wont need much training as the drivers based at Orpington/ Slade Green sign 700s too and I believe the cab/ driving controls are similar

 

[DorkingMain]

It shouldn't be too long until they start leaving SWR, they are the first to leave and 701s have started deliveries and tests. Still be a while as SE will need to train its staff.

They're the last to leave now because of reliability issues with the 458s. It's suspected that a couple of 707s may be sent off early to allow familiarisation / testing over Southeastern way. With a lot of routes cleared for 700s it shouldn't be too difficult of a process in theory.

Also worth noting there is a major dispute with ASLEF about the standard and design of the units, which may require (another) redesign of the cab area. I would be very surprised if any are in service by the end of 2020.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They're the last to leave now because of reliability issues with the 458s. It's suspected that a couple of 707s may be sent off early to allow familiarisation / testing over Southeastern way. With a lot of routes cleared for 700s it shouldn't be too difficult of a process in theory.

Also worth noting there is a major dispute with ASLEF about the standard and design of the units, which may require (another) redesign of the cab area. I would be very surprised if any are in service by the end of 2020.

Is this 707 or 701's?