Class 730 LNR & WMR Delivery/test Updates

[Bletchleyite]

The seats are both narrower than the 700 and unlike the 700 don't have spacers.

 

[Ladder23]

The seats are both narrower than the 700 and unlike the 700 don't have spacers.

I'm screwed then

 

[BucksBones]

The space for standing is very impressive and will swallow a very large number of people but unfortunately the seats are not fit for purpose. I personally think for the Cross City line that if standing room is the priority and the full London Overground spec was not considered appropriate, they'd have been better off going for a 2+ 1 layout of properly spaced seats or even 2 on one side and longitudinal on the other.

 

[birchesgreen]

The space for standing is very impressive and will swallow a very large number of people but unfortunately the seats are not fit for purpose. I personally think for the Cross City line that if standing room is the priority and the full London Overground spec was not considered appropriate, they'd have been better off going for a 2+ 1 layout of properly spaced seats or even 2 on one side and longitudinal on the other.

Any train with that as the priority should be scrapped immediately.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Any train with that as the priority should be scrapped immediately.

Actually I think that if standing is such an accepted and planned for (by the railways) way of travelling then there should be a standing only fare.

You wanna pack em in like that then you better charge an appropriate fare. Reminds me that the coach is cheaper and I have never yet had to stand. Has anyone else had to stand on a coach ?.

 

[1D54]

Standing on a rail replacement really would be taking the biscuit!!

 

[Merle Haggard]

The cynic in me wonders whether these very narrow seats are a product of those promises made at franchise tendering to 'increase the number of seats by nnn in the rush hour''.
I am lean and 'athletic' with a b.m.i. almost into the unhealthy underweight category but, even if I shared a 350/2 3-seater with 2 other similar people, we would not be comfortable - the cushions (the widest part of the seat) are 17 1/2" (44.5 cm) wide - how many people, wearing jackets/other outer garments, are that narrow across the shoulder. So there's all those extra seats - the fact you can't sit in them is just a minor detail. I've not travelled on a 730 so haven't been able to measure the width, but upthread suggests they're even narrower than 350/2s
It's the same mind that boasted about how many seats abolition of first class provided = by taking the total number of first class seats - not the number of vacant ones on average.

You wanna pack em in like that then you better charge an appropriate fare. Reminds me that the coach is cheaper and I have never yet had to stand. Has anyone else had to stand on a coach ?.

Yes - on a railway replacement one. Probably in contravention of P.S.V. regulations.

 

[Ladder23]

Actually I think that if standing is such an accepted and planned for (by the railways) way of travelling then there should be a standing only fare.

You wanna pack em in like that then you better charge an appropriate fare. Reminds me that the coach is cheaper and I have never yet had to stand. Has anyone else had to stand on a coach ?.

I agree with you on this

 

[GWVillager]

You wanna pack em in like that then you better charge an appropriate fare. Reminds me that the coach is cheaper and I have never yet had to stand. Has anyone else had to stand on a coach ?.

No, but that’s mainly because standing on coaches is illegal - indeed it is literally the definition of a coach (“Under the 2000 Regulations a coach is a vehicle that is not permitted to carry standing passengers.” - DfT, Guidance for Manufacturers and Operators).

Standing on buses (which is allowed) is far more common. If standing on coaches was more practical/legal, it would almost certainly occur.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, but that’s mainly because standing on coaches is illegal - indeed it is literally the definition of a coach (“Under the 2000 Regulations a coach is a vehicle that is not permitted to carry standing passengers.” - DfT, Guidance for Manufacturers and Operators).

Standing on buses (which is allowed) is far more common. If standing on coaches was more practical/legal, it would almost certainly occur.

Stagecoach has used coaches on the Oxford-Cambridge X5 which allowed 8 standees, which I guess made them legally just a bus.

 

[GWVillager]

Stagecoach has used coaches on the Oxford-Cambridge X5 which allowed 8 standees, which I guess made them legally just a bus.

They would legally be buses then, I presume.

 

[Inthewest]

Yes you can. Siemens say so, and we've had H&S and train crew testing it over the past few months.

It works. Whether it's he right move, or whether it's practical is another question. But that's what the DfT want

It would appear both of us were correct.

Yes, you can physically UDS 12 coaches down to 4 but as there's never been a requirement to do so, it's never been signed off, trained or tested until now.

For training purposes, it was always "you can't do it" even though it's physically possible.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

It would appear both of us were correct.

Yes, you can physically UDS 12 coaches down to 4 but as there's never been a requirement to do so, it's never been signed off, trained or tested until now.

For training purposes, it was always "you can't do it" even though it's physically possible.

Indeed, which was why there was such a pushback from traincrew and unions. But once it was proved there was no physical reason why it couldn't be done, that was all the ammunition the DfT needed.

Still waiting for 12 car stop boards to be installed at a number of stations so I highly doubt any 12 cars will run next weekend!

 

[Chriso]

Are the 730’s working this week during the overtime ban?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Are the 730’s working this week during the overtime ban?

Only one of the three diagrams at the Euston end today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only one of the three diagrams at the Euston end today.

The 0656 off Bletchley is P-coded all this week, it appears. Going to London tomorrow but probably on Chiltern as curiously the Chiltern Met service improves during industrial action, as they run fewer services on the mainline so the Met line trains get extended by a coach or two, with hardly any two car services at all.

 

[Chriso]

Thanks Peter. I got lucky on the 15:54 Euston to Watford Junction. 730012/730021. Very impressed to be honest

The 0656 off Bletchley is P-coded all this week, it appears. Going to London tomorrow but probably on Chiltern as curiously the Chiltern Met service improves during industrial action, as they run fewer services on the mainline so the Met line trains get extended by a coach or two, with hardly any two car services at all.

I saw a 168/165 5 car combo leaving Harrow for Marylebone around 14:10 today

 

[Energy]

Thanks Peter. I got lucky on the 15:54 Euston to Watford Junction. 730012/730021. Very impressed to be honest


I saw a 168/165 5 car combo leaving Harrow for Marylebone around 14:10 today

The LNWR map appears to be 730 routes only, it's missing the whole Coventry corridor.

 

[Chriso]

The LNWR map appears to be 730 routes only, it's missing the whole Coventry corridor.

Yes I was just thinking the same about Stafford to Crewe via Stoke

 

[Lewisham2221]

The LNWR map appears to be 730 routes only, it's missing the whole Coventry corridor.

That's normal isn't it? Fairly sure the 350s don't show the cross-city line and the 323s don't show Liverpool/Crewe/Euston etc for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's normal isn't it? Fairly sure the 350s don't show the cross-city line and the 323s don't show Liverpool/Crewe/Euston etc for example.

Though it's perhaps a bit odd doing the "final situation of both 730 classes" one, when those orange ones won't ever go up the Trent (at 90mph they'll eat paths).

 

[Lewisham2221]

Though it's perhaps a bit odd doing the "final situation of both 730 classes" one, when those orange ones won't ever go up the Trent (at 90mph they'll eat paths).

I just assumed they'd put a few of those in temporarily whilst they're working the Euston services

 

[Merle Haggard]

In my opinion the map is unhelpful because it's one of where the 730s operate not where LNwR serves. Looking at the map, an unwary passenger might deduce that LNwR don't run trains to Northampton or cfrom London to Coventry & Birmingham. In my opinion I don't think a passenger will only be interested in going to places served by 730s.
A throwback to the parochial Silverlink days, when their departure boards at Northampton only showed the 2 (maybe 3?) Northampton - Birmingham trains they operated; there was an hourly service but it was operated by Central Trains, but who would want to know about them? /s

 

[SCDR_WMR]

That's normal isn't it? Fairly sure the 350s don't show the cross-city line and the 323s don't show Liverpool/Crewe/Euston etc for example.

Yes, there are 3different versions of route maps. The LNWR one is very much just the WCML, the WMR one has entire West Mids area on it, and I believe there is a combined one but can't recall if it's 100% complete

 

[norbitonflyer]

In-car route maps are, surely, intended to show passengesr on board the train where it stops, so they know when their stop is coming up. So why over-complicate it with lines the train will not be opdrating on? An interchange symbol for other LNWR lines should suffice.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In-car route maps are, surely, intended to show passengesr on board the train where it stops, so they know when their stop is coming up. So why over-complicate it with lines the train will not be opdrating on? An interchange symbol for other LNWR lines should suffice.

My bold.
Indeed, that would be an alternative to a full route map and it's been the London Transport/Underground approach for many years.But the curious situation is that includes not only the routes that these particular 730s work but also some, but not all, other LNwR/WMR routes.
My understanding is that all 730s will be maintained at Bletchley and therefore the display might be an acknowledgment that, when Bletchley can't produce a 730/2 they will put out a 730/0 instead and that's why the Trent Valley service is included on the maps. After all, it's much like the present situation where Northampton puts 350/2 units out on 2+2 seater diagrams, vide previous posts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding is that all 730s will be maintained at Bletchley and therefore the display might be an acknowledgment that, when Bletchley can't produce a 730/2 they will put out a 730/0 instead and that's why the Trent Valley service is included on the maps. After all, it's much like the present situation where Northampton puts 350/2 units out on 2+2 seater diagrams, vide previous posts.

It's very different - will putting a 90mph unit rather than a 110mph one not cause pathing issues? All 350s are now 110mph units, though occasionally a 100mph /2 did go out on the Trent and run late.

350s are all diagrammed as one pool I believe, so what you get is random.

 

[Energy]

That's normal isn't it? Fairly sure the 350s don't show the cross-city line and the 323s don't show Liverpool/Crewe/Euston etc for example.

323s are WMR, 350s are LNWR. Usually the route maps show the entire TOC (well brand for WMT), the map onboard pendolinos includes North Wales AFAIK.

My understanding is that all 730s will be maintained at Bletchley and therefore the display might be an acknowledgment that, when Bletchley can't produce a 730/2 they will put out a 730/0 instead and that's why the Trent Valley service is included on the maps. After all, it's much like the present situation where Northampton puts 350/2 units out on 2+2 seater diagrams, vide previous posts.

The LNWR 730s only will be based at Bletchley, the WMR 730s will be based in Birmingham in the future. I'd imagine the Trent Valleys inclusion is just reusing LNWR graphics rather than making special temporary ones.

The 350s have been treated as a common pool for a while, it'll be interesting how LNWR handles the trent valley being a 350 and 730 mix.

 

[Silverlinky]

My bold.
Indeed, that would be an alternative to a full route map and it's been the London Transport/Underground approach for many years.But the curious situation is that includes not only the routes that these particular 730s work but also some, but not all, other LNwR/WMR routes.
My understanding is that all 730s will be maintained at Bletchley and therefore the display might be an acknowledgment that, when Bletchley can't produce a 730/2 they will put out a 730/0 instead and that's why the Trent Valley service is included on the maps. After all, it's much like the present situation where Northampton puts 350/2 units out on 2+2 seater diagrams, vide previous posts.

There will be no 730/0's based at Bletchley once they are all introduced where they are meant to be. Introducing 730's on services in the West Midlands will displace the 350's which currently operate there. There will then be enough 350's to run the service down south prior to the introduction of the 730/2's which will then displace the 350/2's from the Southern end of the line.

Dec 23 timetable shows the need for 8 West Coast 730/0's plus two spare which will also be used to continue training. The high numbered (030's and 040's) units will not migrate down south at any point. The ASDO (GPS coordinates, platform lengths) software, PIS, GSMR phonebook numbers, maps and other stuff needed for the south end of the line is not being rolled out across the entire 730/0 fleet.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There will be no 730/0's based at Bletchley once they are all introduced where they are meant to be. Introducing 730's on services in the West Midlands will displace the 350's which currently operate there. There will then be enough 350's to run the service down south prior to the introduction of the 730/2's which will then displace the 350/2's from the Southern end of the line.

Dec 23 timetable shows the need for 8 West Coast 730/0's plus two spare which will also be used to continue training. The high numbered (030's and 040's) units will not migrate down south at any point. The ASDO (GPS coordinates, platform lengths) software, PIS, GSMR phonebook numbers, maps and other stuff needed for the south end of the line is not being rolled out across the entire 730/0 fleet.

Thanks, informative. I had (wrongly, evidently) thought that all the 730s were to be maintained at Bletchley, presumably the 730/0s will be based at Soho?