CLC Trafford Park to Warrington - Metrolink?

[Philip]

Could the CLC line between Manchester and Warrington Central be a viable option for Metrolink conversion? In the long run it'll save money without the same maintenance regime as heavy rail, but in practical terms now:

*A means to electrify the route and cascade current stock elsewhere
* Two less trains per hour over Castlefield Junction and to Oxford Road, including removing the disruption the shuttles can cause when crossing from platform 5 to the down line.
*Faster tram acceleration compensates for the reduction in line speed.
*More self contained system so possibly a more frequent and reliable service for Urmston, Flixton, Irlam etc.

The two express services of course could just be diverted along the Chat Moss line, possibly with the current Airport-Warrington-Liverpool running into and terminating at Victoria instead, freeing up another path through Castlefield. Warrington itself will retain a half hourly rail service to Manchester from Bank Quay, possibly with the option of an additional hourly shuttle between Victoria and Bank Quay, if the demand necessitates it. I believe Merseyrail have plans to reach Warrington Central, so the line west of Warrington could be left as it is until the Merseyrail plans take off; buffers at Warrington Central to provide a terminus for Metrolink.

A new light rail line could be built west of Trafford Park to join the Altrincham line around Old Trafford, so that the freight can continue to access Trafford Park rail freight depot as it does now.

 

[JonathanH]

Could the CLC line between Manchester and Warrington Central be a viable option for Metrolink conversion?

There was quite a bit of discussion about that point in this thread a month or two ago.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-stations-in-manchester-receive-a-better-service.210521/

and this one https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-tram-train-introduction.209710/#post-4801131

The two express services of course could just be diverted along the Chat Moss line, possibly with the current Airport-Warrington-Liverpool running into and terminating at Victoria instead, freeing up another path through Castlefield.

You can't 'just' divert the two express services along the Chat Moss line because there wouldn't be capacity. You would just divert *the passengers* to the alternative existing services and perhaps look to find some way of providing more capacity on these services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't 'just' divert the two express services along the Chat Moss line because there wouldn't be capacity. You would just divert *the passengers* to the alternative existing services and perhaps look to find some way of providing more capacity on these services.

Assuming NPR is built, that will provide the main fast Liverpool-Warrington-Manchester service, and so the CLC ones will be unnecessary and can be withdrawn. That would then be the perfect point to have Merseyrail and Metrolink meet at Warrington Central (ideally completely rebuilding the station so the interchange is either cross-platform or "Ormskirk style" along one long platform), or alternatively to put the 25kV wires up and have a similar metro-style service but using heavy rail EMUs.

 

[The Planner]

You can't 'just' divert the two express services along the Chat Moss line because there wouldn't be capacity. You would just divert *the passengers* to the alternative existing services and perhaps look to find some way of providing more capacity on these services.

I do enjoy those comments, 5 minute job to sort out clearly.

 

[daodao]

Could the CLC line between Manchester and Warrington Central be a viable option for Metrolink conversion?

Apart from the heavy rail issues, about which others have commented, the existing Metrolink line is fully occupied between Cornbrook and St Peter's Square, so where would the CLC line trams go to?

IMO, the next rail to Metrolink conversion should be the line to Rose Hill via Reddish.

 

[LOL The Irony]

In a few threads time, we'll have exhausted every line in and out of Manchester and I foresee the next thread being called; WCML Metrolink? Now you can take a tram from the center of London all the way to the center of Glasgow, via the center of Manchester! Just what I wanted for Christmas!

On a more serious note, the OP needs to stop making these threads, they're just a copy paste of each other with the line & reasoning changed. The Mid Cheshire one was a dumb idea, this one is a dumb idea and I assure you, the next one has a high chance of being a dumb idea.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

WCML Metrolink? Now you can take a tram from the center of London all the way to the center of Glasgow, via the center of Manchester!

Might be an opportunity to get the WCML platforms reopened at Carnforth!

 

[HST43257]

I’m against the splitting of the CLC route via Warrington Central. I also don’t think that the Metrolink should use the line. Alternatively I’d suggest Merseyrail going into Manchester. NPR’s 4tph will take care of the fasts, but there should still be some semi fasts AND a better slow service. This may be unpopular because it’d probably have to involve 4 tracking Castlefield OR perhaps ATO on that section. My idea is:

4tph Merseyrail. 2tph going all stations to Warrington then semi fast to Manchester. The other 2tph would go semi fast to Warrington then all stations to Manchester.
2tph Northern (Liverpool to Manchester Airport) semi fast all the way, giving some locations a better service to the Airport

The Merseyrail services would ideally terminate in a new platform between 13 and 14* at Piccadilly, to have the least amount of conflicting movements with the best connectivity.

* P14 would be extended out so a bay could be accommodated. If there were 4 tracks on Castlefield. There’d be 5 (all with platforms) at Piccadilly, with the middle one being a bay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In a few threads time, we'll have exhausted every line in and out of Manchester and I foresee the next thread being called; WCML Metrolink? Now you can take a tram from the center of London all the way to the center of Glasgow, via the center of Manchester! Just what I wanted for Christmas!

On a more serious note, the OP needs to stop making these threads, they're just a copy paste of each other with the line & reasoning changed. The Mid Cheshire one was a dumb idea, this one is a dumb idea and I assure you, the next one has a high chance of being a dumb idea.

Such a dumb idea that TfGM have it listed as an objective?

I’m against the splitting of the CLC route via Warrington Central. I also don’t think that the Metrolink should use the line. Alternatively I’d suggest Merseyrail going into Manchester. NPR’s 4tph will take care of the fasts, but there should still be some semi fasts AND a better slow service. This may be unpopular because it’d probably have to involve 4 tracking Castlefield OR perhaps ATO on that section. My idea is:

4tph Merseyrail. 2tph going all stations to Warrington then semi fast to Manchester. The other 2tph would go semi fast to Warrington then all stations to Manchester.
2tph Northern (Liverpool to Manchester Airport) semi fast all the way, giving some locations a better service to the Airport

The Merseyrail services would ideally terminate in a new platform between 13 and 14* at Piccadilly, to have the least amount of conflicting movements with the best connectivity.

* P14 would be extended out so a bay could be accommodated. If there were 4 tracks on Castlefield. There’d be 5 (all with platforms) at Piccadilly, with the middle one being a bay.

Absolutely no to Merseyrail going onto Castlefield. It would destroy the punctuality. It's a local rail service - if a through service is to be retained, it should be operated using 25kV EMUs out of Lime St.

My proposal for a through service would be to wire it, then operate 4tph of EMUs, half of which would run fast one side of Warrington, the other half fast the other side. But I do think the Metrolink/Merseyrail idea has benefits, provided NPR is built first.

That would be:
2tph Lime St-South Parkway-Widnes-Warrington W-Warrington C then all stations to Manchester Oxford Road (or beyond)
2tph Lime St-all stations to Warrington C-Birchwood-Urmston-Deansgate-Manchester Oxford Road (or beyond)

It might not be an utterly terrible idea to run all 4 of them to Ringway Central ( ) calling at all stations on the way as a "Flughafen-S-Bahn", substituting for all other services to Ringway, given that there's no way other than Metrolink to take them off Castlefield. Even more so if they were reasonably evenly spaced by the time they got to Manchester. (You could tweak with the stopping patterns a bit to ensure that they all left Lime St perfectly 15 minutes clockface, and all arrived at Manchester the same).

You could to be fair operate that pattern now using Class 195s which almost perform like EMUs.

With a 2tph EMU service from Lime St to Hunts X (or even consider calling all of them, particularly if it helped ensuring a clean 15 minute pattern at both ends[1]) it could be considered whether Merseyrail itself should perhaps be truncated back to South Parkway.

[1] Ever noticed some Swiss services calling at stations that don't make sense? That's why - the Takt works better if they "waste time" in some cases.

 

[nr758123]

In a few threads time, we'll have exhausted every line in and out of Manchester.

I shall look forward to finding out what's proposed for my line.

 

[Bevan Price]

Such a dumb idea that TfGM have it listed as an objective?

Almost anything suggested by politicians is liable to have a degree of dumbness.....

 

[Whistler40145]

If the CLC route was converted to Metrolink, how would services reach Manchester if the line via Earlestown was closed?

 

[6Gman]

If the CLC route was converted to Metrolink, how would services reach Manchester if the line via Earlestown was closed?

Ince Moss Junction to Bamfurlong Junction.

In a few threads time, we'll have exhausted every line in and out of Manchester and I foresee the next thread being called; WCML Metrolink? Now you can take a tram from the center of London all the way to the center of Glasgow, via the center of Manchester! Just what I wanted for Christmas!

On a more serious note, the OP needs to stop making these threads, they're just a copy paste of each other with the line & reasoning changed. The Mid Cheshire one was a dumb idea, this one is a dumb idea and I assure you, the next one has a high chance of being a dumb idea.

Did you not notice the Manchester - Nottingham via Huddersfield one?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Almost anything suggested by politicians is liable to have a degree of dumbness.....

If uk.railway's view on it (probably a bit old for here!) had anything to do with it, Oldham would still have been served by rotting old DMUs, albeit probably now 150s instead of 142s.

 

[Philip]

In a few threads time, we'll have exhausted every line in and out of Manchester and I foresee the next thread being called; WCML Metrolink? Now you can take a tram from the center of London all the way to the center of Glasgow, via the center of Manchester! Just what I wanted for Christmas!

On a more serious note, the OP needs to stop making these threads, they're just a copy paste of each other with the line & reasoning changed. The Mid Cheshire one was a dumb idea, this one is a dumb idea and I assure you, the next one has a high chance of being a dumb idea.

I think you ought to read the proposal first, quite clearly this is completely different from the Mid-Cheshire idea.

Liverpool to Manchester is accessible via Bryn, Wigan and Atherton/Bolton, if the Chat Moss line is closed. This idea will help reduce congestion through Castlefield and at Oxford Road, whilst potentially increasing the service interval into Manchester for places like Urmston and Flixton, with trams at every 10-15 minutes, whilst also electrifying the route. It is unlikely to be electrified in the short or medium term if it remains heavy rail.

 

[The Planner]

If the Chat Moss was blocked for whatever reason in the extremely unlikely world of the CLC being a tram operation, the result would be a replacement bus, simple as.

 

[Fokx]

I certainly hope not, as a regular user of the line in both directions I’d rather not be constantly changing methods of travel at Warrington, and I dread to think the price increases of having to use both a proposed ‘Merseyrail’ and ‘Metrolink’ tickets. The concept of splitting the two seems to imply that passengers rarely travel from the likes of Widnes to work in Manchester or Birchwood to Liverpool which isn’t the case. Personally I’d much rather a half-hourly stopper than a 12/15 minute train or tram with an interchange, especially at unsociable hours where you’d expect to see frequency reductions

You’ve also clearly never travelled on the Metrolink when things go completely wrong either, trams simply stop running completely with little notice, information screens get ‘stuck’ showing how long trams will be based on how far away they physically are (because they use GPS to estimate arrival times) and in the worst cases there are NO replacement buses for several hours because it’s unplanned, and passengers are advised to use local buses which stop in some cases nowhere near the tram route (I used to live near Exchange Quay and the advice was to catch the 50 from Media City, which was over a mile away from the tram stop) and you’re then arguing with bus drivers about because you’ve paid contactless and have no way to prove it, and although these occasions are rare, they happen much more frequently and less controlled than that of the railway.

It’s also the only way in and out of Liverpool (without going via Wigan) if something goes wrong on the Chat Moss line.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I think you ought to read the proposal first, quite clearly this is completely different from the Mid-Cheshire idea.

Cutting off a line from Manchester and forcing passengers to make an awkward interchange. Nope, it's the same idea in different packaging.

Liverpool to Manchester is accessible via Bryn, Wigan and Atherton/Bolton, if the Chat Moss line is closed.

So a giant detour.

This idea will help reduce congestion through Castlefield and at Oxford Road

This could equally be solved by using in cab signaling through Castlefield and diverting the freights via a reopened Cadishead, both of which offer a better alternative for passengers than a Metrolink conversion of the CLC.

whilst potentially increasing the service interval into Manchester for places like Urmston and Flixton, with trams at every 10-15 minutes

This is literally the only benefit that Metrolink conversion could bring.

It is unlikely to be electrified in the short or medium term if it remains heavy rail.

It also isn't going to be possible to turn into a Metrolink in the short or medium term. You can't just build a way of getting it onto the street in Manchester, string 750v DC wires, modify the platforms and build more M5000s on a whim. Metrolink was worked on for about 10 years (over 20 if you want to include Picc-Vic) before it opened. Then comes the next hurdle of laying 3rd rail in Merseyland when it's a format that's on the way out. And finally is the problem of interoperability and ticketing. It'll probably be easier and cheaper for TfGM & MerseyTravel to persuade the DfT to string up 25kv wires from Trafford Park to Allerton.

Such a dumb idea that TfGM have it listed as an objective?

They also listed Tram-Trains on the Mid Cheshire Line as one of their projects at one point. Until looking at the business case. Another idea that works on paper but not in practice.

 

[edwin_m]

It's pretty unlikely that any Metrolink solution would work before NPR, because of the need for Warrington to keep fast services to Manchester and Liverpool.

Over that period the best idea is probably to wire it with overlapping stopping services from Manchester to Warrington West and from Birchwood to Liverpool (which could be the existing route or an extension of Merseyrail). Splitting the service in that way gets rid of the problem of the fast services catching up with the stoppers - for example at Warrington Central westbound you'd see a Manchester to Warrington West, then a fast for Liverpool, then a Birchwood to Liverpool all within a few minutes. Those travelling from the Manchester suburban stations to Liverpool or Liverpool suburban stations to Manchester would face an extra change at one of the Warrington stations, but the other leg of their journey would be on a fast so the overall travel time would be similar. Suburb-to-suburb passengers through Warrington would have to change between two slows, but there are relatively few such journeys as suburban stations are overwhelmingly "origins" not "destinations". The suburban stations would have better service as all stopping trains would serve all stations.

Assuming NPR was built and provided the fast services from Warrington, several options would then be possible including re-linking the stoppers through or converting the Manchester end to Metrolink, using tram-trains running under the 25kV. This would depend on the future strategy for Castlefield.

 

[daodao]

Is there are a reason why the powers that be, both local and national, show marked reticence about electrifying the CLC line at 25 kV? It seems such an obvious "infill" proposal, and relatively straightforward (in so far as electrification is simple), as there are few junctions and the line is already wired at both ends. The service is frequent and it would make working the line easier (as emus accelerate faster from stops) and also help remove diesel services from the Castlefield line.

 

[edwin_m]

Is there are a reason why the powers that be, both local and national, show marked reticence about electrifying the CLC line at 25 kV? It seems such an obvious "infill" proposal, and relatively straightforward (in so far as electrification is simple), as there are few junctions and the line is already wired at both ends. The service is frequent and it would make working the line easier (as emus accelerate faster from stops) and also help remove diesel services from the Castlefield line.

The priorities for the electrifications of the last decade were largely set by a strategy document in 2009, which based its assessment on the vehicle-miles converted from DMU to EMU, relative to the track miles of electrification required to achieve that. Bi-modes didn't exist at the time and weren't taken into account.

At the time neither of the fast trains could be converted to EMU because they used non-electrified lines elsewhere on their journeys that would have been lower priorities for conversion. The two stoppers could be converted, but didn't and still don't run beyond Oxford Road so the only "bonus" elimination of diesel running under the wires was Allerton Junction to Lime Street plus maybe Oxford Road to Castlefield Junction. Compare with, for example, Huyton to Wigan which allowed EMU conversion all the way from Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool, again with the service patterns of the time.

Any new analysis would have to take account of current service patterns and the option of bi-modes, but it would now be possible to convert at least three of the 4TPH and I'd guess the CLC would now be near the top of the priorities for the region.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the time neither of the fast trains could be converted to EMU because they used non-electrified lines elsewhere on their journeys that would have been lower priorities for conversion. The two stoppers could be converted, but didn't and still don't run beyond Oxford Road so the only "bonus" elimination of diesel running under the wires was Allerton Junction to Lime Street plus maybe Oxford Road to Castlefield Junction. Compare with, for example, Huyton to Wigan which allowed EMU conversion all the way from Liverpool South Parkway to Blackpool, again with the service patterns of the time.

Any new analysis would have to take account of current service patterns and the option of bi-modes, but it would now be possible to convert at least three of the 4TPH and I'd guess the CLC would now be near the top of the priorities for the region.

Though the other benefit of electrification worth considering is that if modern EMUs are used (323s would be modern enough, 319s not) then you could shave about 5-10 minutes off an all-stations stopping run. There are a lot of intermediate stations on the route, it's in that regard very similar to say the Merseyrail Southport line but longer.

To be fair you could also gain that by using 195s on it as they can accelerate like EMUs. New Northern seem more open to that sort of thing, with them now being common on Rose Hill and Hope Valley stopping services, so perhaps that will happen.

 

[6Gman]

Has the OP explained where and how the CLC route would be linked to the existing Metrolink system?

 

[edwin_m]

Though the other benefit of electrification worth considering is that if modern EMUs are used (323s would be modern enough, 319s not) then you could shave about 5-10 minutes off an all-stations stopping run. There are a lot of intermediate stations on the route, it's in that regard very similar to say the Merseyrail Southport line but longer.

To be fair you could also gain that by using 195s on it as they can accelerate like EMUs. New Northern seem more open to that sort of thing, with them now being common on Rose Hill and Hope Valley stopping services, so perhaps that will happen.

Indeed. But with the existing end to end stoppers, that performance gain creates a choice between improving service quality by shortening the end-to-end times of the stoppers, or increasing frequency at those stations that many of the stoppers skip. The suggestion I set out above allows both those things.

 

[Whistler40145]

Cutting off a line from Manchester and forcing passengers to make an awkward interchange. Nope, it's the same idea in different packaging.

So a giant detour.

This could equally be solved by using in cab signaling through Castlefield and diverting the freights via a reopened Cadishead, both of which offer a better alternative for passengers than a Metrolink conversion of the CLC.

This is literally the only benefit that Metrolink conversion could bring.

It also isn't going to be possible to turn into a Metrolink in the short or medium term. You can't just build a way of getting it onto the street in Manchester, string 750v DC wires, modify the platforms and build more M5000s on a whim. Metrolink was worked on for about 10 years (over 20 if you want to include Picc-Vic) before it opened. Then comes the next hurdle of laying 3rd rail in Merseyland when it's a format that's on the way out. And finally is the problem of interoperability and ticketing. It'll probably be easier and cheaper for TfGM & MerseyTravel to persuade the DfT to string up 25kv wires from Trafford Park to Allerton.


They also listed Tram-Trains on the Mid Cheshire Line as one of their projects at one point. Until looking at the business case. Another idea that works on paper but not in practice.

If services had to be diverted via St Helens Central and Wigan North Western to Manchester Piccadilly, is it possible to access the line to Bolton/Salford Crescent without a double shunt?

 

[vidal]

Other than access to Trafford Park freightliner terminal, does any freight use the CLC line? I remember the old Fletliner in the 1980s but other than that I can't think of anything?

James

 

[cle]

This makes sense to me.

It removes trains from Castlefield.
It removes a need for the Oxford Road bay.
The 'fast' line from Liverpool to Manchester has switched, and service is quicker.
It makes two utilized lines into high frequency suburban lines for their respective cities. I see a lot of suppressed demand, especially in West Manchester aka Trafford.
Warrington retains good services to both cities.
Widnes to Manc and Birchwood to Liverpool are not huge casualties. Warrington as mid-point is perfect.
It frees up platforms and paths at Lime St.
It will help the development of Cornbrook as a TOD/hub. CLC people to Quays/Media City jobs, for instance.
It gives folks direct services into more of Liverpool and Manchester cities.
It removes short, infrequent diesels, and offers much higher frequencies on fast accelerating, electric trains.
It enhances both cities' metro networks - locals will prefer it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It frees up platforms and paths at Lime St.

It doesn't do that, as you would probably want a residual half hourly Lime St to South Parkway/Hunts Cross local EMU service, unless you planned on closing Mossley Hill and West Allerton.

It is a good idea, though, and the other benefits are certainly strong.

 

[Philip]

Has the OP explained where and how the CLC route would be linked to the existing Metrolink system?

Has the OP explained where and how the CLC route would be linked to the existing Metrolink system?

Whilst there is no obvious place where there is room for new track at ground level in that area, various schemes could be looked at: deviation from the present route west of Flixton so that the line runs through the south of Urmston and Flixton and heads off to join the Altrincham line around Dane Road; a tunnel; tram train rail between Trafford Park and Cornbrook Junction or a similar arrangement to the one that exists between Altrincham and Navigation Road currently.

 

[Nym]

Is still begs the question...
Why?

Just do it properly and electrify the route.