Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[Surreytraveller]

GSM-R doesn’t have a “panic” button.

No, it has an 'emergency' and an 'urgent' button. Emergency stops everything in the cell area, and the urgent just tells the signaller its an urgent call

 

[bengley]

It looks to me like the GWR has been coming around the corner off the junction and the SWR has then hit it while both trains were still moving. It doesn't look like it has happened at a particularly high speed, possibly indicating the SWR had the brake in emergency at the time but for whatever reason (railhead conditions?) has failed to stop.

This would explain why the TPWS hasn't stopped the SWR if the route wasn't set for it - the leaf fall contamination of course preventing the brake from being effective.

 

[norbitonflyer]

BBC TV today showed the GWR with it’s white lights flashing.

Where? The only footage of flashing lights is of the SWR train.

 

[bengley]

We’re supposed to press the emergency call button and make a railway emergency call, when you press that button all signals in that area are supposed to go to danger, if you can’t get a call through for whatever reason it’s clips and dets and a nice walk.

The red button doesn't return signals to danger!

 

[JN114]

what’s flung open as quickly as possible is still the gangway door isn’t it?

Yes, flung open quickly, not carefully stowed away; as the picture shows.

 

[Surreytraveller]

We’re supposed to press the emergency call button and make a railway emergency call, when you press that button all signals in that area are supposed to go to danger, if you can’t get a call through for whatever reason it’s clips and dets and a nice walk.

I don't believe it does anything to the signals. It just sends a message to all the other receivers in the area (trains, signaller and control)

 

[Ken H]

We’re supposed to press the emergency call button and make a railway emergency call, when you press that button all signals in that area are supposed to go to danger, if you can’t get a call through for whatever reason it’s clips and dets and a nice walk.

Thanks

 

[westcoaster]

If you were evacuating, you wouldn’t take the time to carefully make up the gangway, secure all the doors away etc, they’d just be flung open and get out. Also given the headlights on the significantly more damaged 159 are still illuminated I’d expect the same on the 158 had it been leading.



The header picture on the BBC site last night at some point had the SWR unit displaying hazard signal on rear; I believe it was shared upthread.

I belie

can the driver not send a general alert message just by pressing a button? If he knew his train was derailed towards another running line? What is the procedure if he suspects his train is fouling another line?

press the Big RED Emergency stop button, will stop all other movements in the area.

Did anyone else see the sky news helicopter footage from overhead. You can clearly see the point of impact. Looks to be at the back of the 3rd coach of the GWR unit by the internal gangway.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1455213803596091399?t=yb4sQaLAuCM9nJSSU_jP4g&s=19 at 16 seconds in.

 

[quattromatt]

Thanks

My pleasure.

I don't believe it does anything to the signals. It just sends a message to all the other receivers in the area (trains, signaller and control)

There’s an instruction that anyone who inadvertently presses the emergency button they must speak to the signaller as the signals in that cell will go to danger, or so I was told on my GSM-R course at rugby a few years ago, I’m happy to be corrected as everyday is a school day as they say.

 

[507020]

Yes, flung open quickly, not carefully stowed away; as the picture shows.

The picture might have been taken after the evacuation had taken place, or given the amount of people at the scene one of them could have stowed the door away while others entered the train to attend to passengers. If the passengers being evacuated had difficulty walking because the train was on an angle or they were injured then stowing it to give them a clear path might have made sense since there was not a fire or anything else to make the evacuation rushed.

 

[dosxuk]

Where? The only footage of flashing lights is of the SWR train.

The Daily Mail article linked earlier in the thread had video of the SWR train dark but the GWR flashing. If they've got it, it'll almost certainly have been from an agency so could be seen in various places.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Whilst I agree that the precise facts aren't know, RTT shows 1F30 as having passed Dean late at 18:35.5 and, if that's correct, 1F30 would only have had time to reach Tunnel Junction at 18:42 when the accident occurred (and, in particular, it couldn't have arrived and stopped at 18:38 which I recall was reported in the paper). I'm sure that the Daily Mail's story about it waiting for 5+ minutes can't be correct in any way. My thinking is that both trains were moving at the time of the collision, and that 1F30 was first to arrive at the same place.

RTT shows 1F30 passing Tunnel Junction at 1841.75, and 1L53 at Laverstoke North Junction 15 seconds earlier (n.b times are only given to the nearest quarter minute)

 

[quattromatt]

No, it has an 'emergency' and an 'urgent' button. Emergency stops everything in the cell area, and the urgent just tells the signaller its an urgent call

Is that what they are? I had no idea

 

[Saracen_83]

We’re supposed to press the emergency call button and make a railway emergency call, when you press that button all signals in that area are supposed to go to danger, if you can’t get a call through for whatever reason it’s clips and dets and a nice walk.

I can assure you, making a Rec call does NOT put the signals to red/danger……

what it does do, is call all GSMRs in its cell area including all drivers, signaller, adjacent signallers and control. The trains will be brought to a stand, and will not move until the signaller gives them the authority to do so….

the only signals put to danger would be any that the signaller deems necessary to protect the area that the incident is in if it is deemed necessary to do so.

 

[rebmcr]

There is a plausible sequence of events which I don't believe anyone else has highlighted yet:

• Route set for the SWR
• GWR fails to stop at the protecting signal due to leaf fall, and activates hazard lighting
Then one of two possibilities:
• GWR comes to a stop fouling the junction that SWR is proceeding towards, with no time to stop
• GWR and SWR collide while both in motion, again with no time to stop

 

[bengley]

Is that what they are? I had no idea

Yes it doesn't return signals to danger but the signaller can choose to do this if they feel it's necessary

 

[Surreytraveller]

Is that what they are? I had no idea

Not everyone is going to know. A normal person could quite reasonably refer to the emergency stop button as a panic button

 

[quattromatt]

Yes it doesn't return signals to danger but the signaller can choose to do this if they feel it's necessary

I obviously know nothing about GSM-R then, but I never mastered the NRN either.

Not everyone is going to know. A normal person could quite reasonably refer to the emergency stop button as a panic button

Well it’s an emergency call button so now they do know.

 

[507020]

There is a plausible sequence of events which I don't believe anyone else has highlighted yet:

• Route set for the SWR
• GWR fails to stop at the protecting signal due to leaf fall, and activates hazard lighting
Then one of two possibilities:
• GWR comes to a stop fouling the junction that SWR is proceeding towards, with no time to stop
• GWR and SWR collide while both in motion, again with no time to stop

And if the points changed under the rear carriage of the GWR train then that caused it to derail in the tunnel.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I obviously know nothing about GSM-R then, but I never mastered the NRN either.


Well it’s an emergency call button so now they do know.

NRN was carp

 

[quattromatt]

NRN was carp

Yep

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a plausible sequence of events which I don't believe anyone else has highlighted yet:

• Route set for the SWR
• GWR fails to stop at the protecting signal due to leaf fall, and activates hazard lighting
Then one of two possibilities:
• GWR comes to a stop fouling the junction that SWR is proceeding towards, with no time to stop
• GWR and SWR collide while both in motion, again with no time to stop

That isn’t supported by a picture in a very early post (#17) made last night, that shows that the GWR is the train with its route set as far as the signalling berth in the tunnel.

 

[Cowley]

There is a plausible sequence of events which I don't believe anyone else has highlighted yet:

• Route set for the SWR
• GWR fails to stop at the protecting signal due to leaf fall, and activates hazard lighting
Then one of two possibilities:
• GWR comes to a stop fouling the junction that SWR is proceeding towards, with no time to stop
• GWR and SWR collide while both in motion, again with no time to stop

That to me seems like the most plausible situation, but I’d probably go for your latter suggestion that they were both in motion and the force of the crash separated the 158s with the front one staying on the track.
This must have all happened very fast with very little time for anyone to react if so.
Purely conjecture obviously.

 

[rebmcr]

That isn’t supported by a picture in a very early post last night that shows that the GWR is the train with its route set as far as the signalling berth in the tunnel.

Ah OK. That would be why noone else had discussed it then!

 

[norbitonflyer]

But what we can see from pictures of the tunnel entrance is that the rear carriage of the GWR train derailed and hit the tunnel wall and then the SWR train immediately behind it collided with it and was deflected onto the other line coming to rest at a 45 degree angle with the rear carriage still on the rails.

I don't think we can conclude that things happened in that order.

I don’t understand how only the rear carriage can derail and not the front ones

If it was hit by the SWR train?

 

[JN114]

The picture might have been taken after the evacuation had taken place, or given the amount of people at the scene one of them could have stowed the door away while others entered the train to attend to passengers. If the passengers being evacuated had difficulty walking because the train was on an angle or they were injured then stowing it to give them a clear path might have made sense since there was not a fire or anything else to make the evacuation rushed.

I guess they could have done.

Or it was a 4 car 158, which has been posted by many industry insiders over and again on this thread (including myself).

The person I was originally replying to was asking for proof; that’s the best that can be garnered from what is already shared.

 

[r1_biker]

Could this be a repeat of the Fareham incident ?

Train in a full on slide, realised it was not going to get stopped at the Red so pressed the red emergency button stopping all trains and these two trains ended up at the same point ?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Did anyone else see the sky news helicopter footage from overhead. You can clearly see the point of impact. Looks to be at the back of the 3rd coach of the GWR unit by the internal gangway.

To be really pedantic, it seems to have missed the majority of the carriage end and taken out the van/toilet area.

 

[Cowley]

Ah OK. That would be why noone else had discussed it then!

It’s not easy this is it?

 

[2HAP]

Sounds painful -

Scared passengers called parents to say 'I love you' after train crashed

People thrown from their seats feared the train would go up in flames after the crash.

metro.co.uk

while one of the drivers, who suffered a broken angle, had to be cut out of his cabin