Comical response from GTR (gateline staff refused travel)

[mrmartin]

Hi,

Went to Brighton week before last for a friend's birthday which had been planned for a while.

Got two super off peak returns, Thameslink only as we were travelling from London bridge.

Turns out that there was emergency engineering work in the evening and a bunch of Thameslink trains were cancelled and didn't want to risk it so cut our night short.

Saw there was a Gatwick express train to Victoria.

Asked the gateline woman but said we couldn't go on it despite the last minute cancellations.

Asked on twitter and they said we could get on the GatEx, but the gateline woman was having none of it and missed the train as she didn't believe twitter was correct.

Incredibly I wrote a complaint to Thameslink to say the situation was extremely confusing. They have now said the gateline woman was correct, not their own twitter account, and I would have got a penalty fare had i boarded as they didn't have ticket acceptance in place .

Overall it's fairly shambolic considering it is one TOC.

 

[theironroad]

While I've some sympathy with the staff who run TOC Twitter accounts, because the amount of abuse, negativity and downright sarcasm and rudeness they receive daily must be soul destroying, I must also say that some of the TOC replies are not accurate and misleading. I think there's more apologising and appeasing than accuracy at times. Sometimes it's useful, but often not.

 

[mrmartin]

Sorry, but if there are loads of cancellations do you not think the sensible thing would be to lift ticket restrictions *on your own services* .that's what I thought and obviously the twitter guy thought.

I'd understand this balls up if it was multiple TOCs confusing each other with ticket acceptance. But for a TOC not to be able to lift restrictions on their own services is completely ridiculous.

 

[yorkie]

Thameslink Only can only refer to the train company, which operates all these trains, so tickets were valid.

The suvjsub has been done to death.

If you were charged a Penalty Fare you could have claimed a full refund and reoported a breach of the regulations.

You can refer the matter to Transport Focus. You could write to GTR again. I'm happy to proof read a letter to either if you like.

 

[theironroad]

Sorry, but if there are loads of cancellations do you not think the sensible thing would be to lift ticket restrictions *on your own services* .that's what I thought and obviously the twitter guy thought.

I'd understand this balls up if it was multiple TOCs confusing each other with ticket acceptance. But for a TOC not to be able to lift restrictions on their own services is completely ridiculous.

My point isn't about ticket acceptance (though sounds like it may have been a good idea if there were multiple TL cancellations). My point is about the accuracy of info tweeted by TOCs in general. As you say, ticket acceptance was NOT in place (rightly or wrongly) but you were tweeted inaccurate info to suggest it was ok which isn't helpful for anyone, especially you.

 

[theironroad]

Thameslink Only can only refer to the train company, which operates all these trains, so tickets were valid.

The suvjsub has been done to death.

If you were charged a Penalty Fare you could have claimed a full refund and reoported a breach of the regulations.



You can refer the matter to Transport Focus. You could write to GTR again. I'm happy to proof read a letter to either if you like.

So a 'Thameslink only' ticket can be used on any Southern or Gatwick Express train???????

 

[Merseysider]

So a 'Thameslink only' ticket can be used on any Southern or Gatwick Express train???????

One will find several threads on the matter, so there’s no point going into it again here.

In short, Southern and Crapwick Express are both operated by Govia Thameslink Railway under the TSGN franchise.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So a 'Thameslink only' ticket can be used on any Southern or Gatwick Express train???????

Conditions 12.1 and 13.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel make clear that any restrictions on the trains or train companies you can take must be clearly indicated on the ticket.

There is only one company which trades as Southern, Thameslink, Gatwick Express and Great Northern. Its legal name is Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd. Thus, it would be reasonable to assume that, if 'Thameslink only' is intended to refer to a specific train company then it refers to Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd., of which it is an abbreviation (given that there is only space for 16 characters in the route restriction field on a ticket).

So yes, you are legally entitled to take a Gatwick Express train with a 'Thameslink only' ticket, provided the route-wise validity of the ticket lets you (e.g. you could on a London Terminals to Gatwick Airport one, but not on a London Bridge to Gatwick Airport one as no Gatwick Express trains depart from London Bridge). Either 'Thameslink only' is referring to Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd. - in which case it is referring to the only operator of trains to Gatwick Airport which you can take from London, or it isn't referring to a Train Company (as defined in the NRCoT) at all.

The unknowledgeable and poorly/wrongly trained staff at the ticket barriers will likely not agree with you, but they would be wrong in disagreeing with you. If they caused you to be delayed by incorrectly preventing you from exercising your contractual rights then you would be entitled to the appropriate Delay Repay compensation.

 

[robbeech]

Unfortunately they make their own rules and get away with it daily but this is already covered elsewhere.
Your ticket was already valid.
Whilst some disagree I believe that a person on the social media team is an authorised person and should they allow you to travel then it should not be refused by someone else. It is not for the customer to determine the rank, pay grade, job title and aurhorisation level of someone acting on behalf of the TOC. If there are problems with authorisation being given where it shouldn’t be that is an internal problem. Once again the customer is penalised by the toc breaking the rules and then messed about further by internal disagreements.

 

[westcoaster]

Normally they say to keep the tweet as prove, and present that as official authorisation to travel.
Still don't get the whole debate about TOC specific tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Normally they say to keep the tweet as prove, and present that as official authorisation to travel.
Still don't get the whole debate about TOC specific tickets.

The Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) does allow train companies to set dedicated fares, which are defined as fares that are only valid on the named company. There is no provision for a train company to set a fare that is only valid on one of their brands (e.g. Greater Anglia do not attempt to deny travel to holders of their dedicated fares on their Stansted Express branded services, nor do West Midlands Trains attempt to deny travel to holders of their dedicated fares on either of their brands).

 

[Failed Unit]

Can any sanctions be placed on GTR?

GTR has lots of treads on the following.

Incorrectly denied boarding with valid tickets
Incorrectly denying delay repay.
Ingoring “railplan 2020” consultations by grouping responses together to look like the majority of people have no preference to the changes rather than analysis of the areas directly impacted.
Not tackling over crowding.
Lieing to passengers and the rapidly backtracking when challenged.
Constant poor planning for engineering work / known large events.

But still this company carries on without sanctions from the government. It just makes me wonder are they untouchable?

 

[father_jack]

But wouldn't the ticket have opened the gate anyway ?

 

[Roy Badami]

Thameslink Only can only refer to the train company, which operates all these trains, so tickets were valid.
.

Pretty sure there's an explanatory note in the latest NRCoC saying that they can restrict *by brand*. Of course, it's just an explanatory note, and the blurb explicitly says that the explanatory notes don't form part of the contract.

But it's there in writing now. Which is a significant change IMHO. (Don't know when that note came in, so apologies if this has been done to death already)

 

[yorkie]

Pretty sure there's an explanatory note in the latest NRCoC saying that they can restrict *by brand*. Of course, it's just an explanatory note, and the blurb explicitly says that the explanatory notes don't form part of the contract.

But it's there in writing now. Which is a significant change IMHO. (Don't know when that note came in, so apologies if this has been done to death already)

*Sigh*

I suggest you look at the Ticketing Settlement Agreement, which is the relevant legal document and which cannot be undermined by the NRCoT. I suggest you also consider only contractual terms in the NRCoT. To claim that a non-contractual "information box" which was not even approved by DfT is a material change (when even the DfT won't admit this!), and can over-ride the TSA, is a highly dubious claim to make.

Yes this has been done to death already.

 

[Roy Badami]

To claim that a non-contractual "information box" which was not even approved by DfT is a material change [...]

I don't doubt that your interpretation of the legal position is correct. The material change is not in the legal position but in the attitude of the industry. No longer is this just one or two isolated TOCs asserting this, but an industry wide body. It suggests that anyone wanting to challenge this should probably be willing to go all the way.

Yes this has been done to death already.

Apologies.

 

[yorkie]

I can assure you there has been no change to GTR's attidue towards passengers holding tickets the company doesn't want to be valid.

The people I'm aware of who challenged it were either "let off" or refunded.

GTR won't let it be tested in court.

 

[Roy Badami]

GTR won't let it be tested in court.

Fair point.

 

[Hadders]

The rail industry can't have it both ways.

On the one hand they want to try and apply restrictions based on brand
Then we have West Midlands Trains where tickets marked WMT only are valid on their London Northwestern Branded trains.

You couldn't make it up.

The legal position is that tickets may be restricted by Train Operating Company. Restrictions cannot be applied by brand.

 

[yorkie]

@mrrmartin - Please inform us of GTR's response regarding their staff rejecting your ticket, despite you acting in accordance with the company's own instructions. Send me a message when you have an update and I'll unlock the thread then.