Coronavirus precautions: Has the world gone mad?

[bramling]

Having been in Stockholm more or less throughout the outbreak, where the response has been measured, I was convinced quite early on that some kind of mass hysteria was overtaking many societies - I looked on in total disbelief as people were ordered to stay at home in other countries.

One problem is that this has got countries with the worst hysteria, such as the UK, in a real tangle. Having messaged that people must stay at home, how are they going to give a contradictory message when there is another outbreak?

Because Sweden kept things such as bars, shops, restaurants, and of course schools, open throughout, it will of course be easy to do so again when there is another outbreak. In fact, Sweden is in the opposite situation - it would be seen as strange if things weren't kept open.

Having weathered this outbreak with a "controlled" spread through the population, it has also put the Swedish authorities in a reasonably good position. Because people's lives have not been disrupted so excessively, it is easier now for them to maintain the literally "big" restrictions - that is, on mass attended events, in place for as long as they see fit, because life and leisure has been able to proceed through the outbreak, and people are not mentally exhausted by the experience.

As it is, the deaths and hospitalisations continue to subside, despite the limited restrictions and people now being out and about much more, but that's another subject.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the Swedish response, I just don’t think people here have the right mentality to have gone along with that approach with less margin for things going wrong due to our heavier population density.

 

[Yew]

I wasn’t sure where to post this so apologies if you think it’s the wrong thread.


I don’t understand why this didn’t happen sooner once the resiliency was built into our infrastructure? I feel we have been sat here for no reason.

I think it's because they were delaying whilst Boris was Ill, and in doing so got to a point where backtracking would be embarassing.

 

[Bikeman78]

Having been in Stockholm more or less throughout the outbreak, where the response has been measured, I was convinced quite early on that some kind of mass hysteria was overtaking many societies - I looked on in total disbelief as people were ordered to stay at home in other countries.

One problem is that this has got countries with the worst hysteria, such as the UK, in a real tangle. Having messaged that people must stay at home, how are they going to give a contradictory message when there is another outbreak?

Because Sweden kept things such as bars, shops, restaurants, and of course schools, open throughout, it will of course be easy to do so again when there is another outbreak. In fact, Sweden is in the opposite situation - it would be seen as strange if things weren't kept open.

Having weathered this outbreak with a "controlled" spread through the population, it has also put the Swedish authorities in a reasonably good position. Because people's lives have not been disrupted so excessively, it is easier now for them to maintain the literally "big" restrictions - that is, on mass attended events, in place for as long as they see fit, because life and leisure has been able to proceed through the outbreak, and people are not mentally exhausted by the experience.

As it is, the deaths and hospitalisations continue to subside, despite the limited restrictions and people now being out and about much more, but that's another subject.

Another bonus is that there's almost no chance of the legendary second wave in Sweden.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I have some advice for anyone wishing to change between train and tube (or vice-versa) at Finsbury Park station.
DON’T attempt it.
I got off a Thameslink train there today. You used to be able to use spiral staircases to access the Piccadilly and Victoria lines. In under 60 seconds. Now, closed on the altar of COVID precautions, you now have to exit the station, walk along Seven Sisters Road, Fonthill Road and Wells Terrace to re-enter the complex via a new station entrance. This adds (for a fit person) about 10 minutes to the interchange time.
I get the idea of one-way system. But neither the tube/rail transferrees or the rail/tube transferees are allowed to use the staircases.
madness!
And the doom-laden announcements insist the one way system will ‘be in operation for the foreseeable future’, too

 

[BJames]

I have some advice for anyone wishing to change between train and tube (or vice-versa) at Finsbury Park station.
DON’T attempt it.
I got off a Thameslink train there today. You used to be able to use spiral staircases to access the Piccadilly and Victoria lines. In under 60 seconds. Now, closed on the altar of COVID precautions, you now have to exit the station, walk along Seven Sisters Road, Fonthill Road and Wells Terrace to re-enter the complex via a new station entrance. This adds (for a fit person) about 10 minutes to the interchange time.
I get the idea of one-way system. But neither the tube/rail transferrees or the rail/tube transferees are allowed to use the staircases.
madness!
And the doom-laden announcements insist the one way system will ‘be in operation for the foreseeable future’, too

I second this. I came off a train at Platform 1 and was headed down to the underground but saw the redirections. I just went back up and took Thameslink through the core instead. The interchange at Blackfriars is much much better.

 

[Bantamzen]

So as the pubs are soon to be opening again (Monday 6th for most around here), I downloaded an app for the owners of a couple to see how things might work. And this is what the app said to expect (this is for Greene King pubs):

"Please arrive at the time of booking and our 'pub safe host' will greet you. The host will advise you to take a copy of our disposable menus before showing you to your socially distanced table. To further reduce contact with our team, you can now use Order & Pay at your table.". And so on. Frankly it read more like some guidance given to you from a tour guide on the edges of the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone than going to your local for a pint. I feel pretty certain that in other countries that are reopening bars & restaurants don't make it sound like you are entering an area of high radiation....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I give up.

 

[anthony263]

I live in Wales and I admit we are ignoring the 5 mile rule. People were fighting the police in Ogmore by sea the other day and bus usage is on the rise in Wales so I think social distancing needs to go

 

[scarby]

I feel pretty certain that in other countries that are reopening bars & restaurants don't make it sound like you are entering an area of high radiation....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I give up.

In Stockholm (where they never shut in the first place) you turn up to a bar/pub and grab a seat/table and they take your order. In many cases you can still order at the bar - but no hanging/crowding at the bar, so they’ll often say they’ll bring the drink to your table (which sometimes they did before anyway). You can of course still move around to talk with people you may see who you know as long as you don’t crowd other customers.

If people turn up and there is nowhere to sit staff calmly tell them that there is no room - basically like a full restaurant.

At one place I frequent the same old menus are handed out. Emphasis is on hand washing and tables and stools are wiped down (but they should be anyway!).

 

[LAX54]

Agreed with those regarding the schools. Blended learning was an abysmal idea and I'm glad that it didn't survive for long. It wasn't even practical anyway, where would the kids have even gone for the remainder of those hours in the week? It seemed like a knee-jerk decision and when they actually looked through it, they realised it wouldn't work.

The kids deserve an education of the same standard as everyone (if not better than) before them did and they deserve the full social experience. Just hope that there aren't too many over-protective parents refusing to send kids back.

Seen people in the street, and on platforms waiting for trains wearing those perspex face coverings, but when you look closely, they seem as good as a chocolate fireguard !

 

[bramling]

If people turn up and there is nowhere to sit staff calmly tell them that there is no room - basically like a full restaurant.

In this country that would probably result in the staff getting punched or spat at. This is why the Sweden approach just wouldn’t work here, sadly.

 

[LAX54]

In this country that would probably result in the staff getting punched or spat at. This is why the Sweden approach just wouldn’t work here, sadly.

We are in this position because of social media and tv news, that sent people into waves of the end of the world hysteria that has been shown on tv /facebook etc, but.... what made some Countries take a measured response, and kept most things as normal, and other Countries, panic, seal theselves off, so that poeple never got any immunity, and will keep coming back time and time again ?

 

[bramling]

We are in this position because of social media and tv news, that sent people into waves of the end of the world hysteria that has been shown on tv /facebook etc, but.... what made some Countries take a measured response, and kept most things as normal, and other Countries, panic, seal theselves off, so that poeple never got any immunity, and will keep coming back time and time again ?

There does seem to be a developing theme that some people in this country can’t take no for an answer. Look no further than Bournemouth this week for a demonstration of what this leads to.

 

[nedchester]

So as the pubs are soon to be opening again (Monday 6th for most around here), I downloaded an app for the owners of a couple to see how things might work. And this is what the app said to expect (this is for Greene King pubs):

"Please arrive at the time of booking and our 'pub safe host' will greet you. The host will advise you to take a copy of our disposable menus before showing you to your socially distanced table. To further reduce contact with our team, you can now use Order & Pay at your table.". And so on. Frankly it read more like some guidance given to you from a tour guide on the edges of the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone than going to your local for a pint. I feel pretty certain that in other countries that are reopening bars & restaurants don't make it sound like you are entering an area of high radiation....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I give up.

A friend who lives in Italy says you go to the bar (there's a bottle of Hand Sanitiser on the counter). You sit down and are requested to keep 1m distance. That's it.

But in the U.K. you are guaranteed to get to a new level of Bureaucracy as the Covid-Stasi will insist on people having been of Covid-Safe sources.....

 

[DelayRepay]

Seen people in the street, and on platforms waiting for trains wearing those perspex face coverings, but when you look closely, they seem as good as a chocolate fireguard !

I saw the neighbour's gardener (she is elderly) mowing the grass wearing a surgical mask and a visor. Maybe he has hay fever and/or is concerned about the lawnmower flipping stones into his eyes, but he never wore this stuff pre-Covid. And this is the first time he's come since lockdown. He has instructed the neighbour that she must remain in the house while the grass is being cut, and if she wants to talk to him she should either shout from an upstairs window or call his mobile. I do not know what will happen if the postman turns up to deliver letters while the grass cutting is taking place.

For the last few months I have been mowing her grass for her when I did mine. She pays him with money but she paid me with home made cakes. I said I was more than happy to continue the arrangement for as long as necessary

In fairness, maybe he has some kind of underlying condition which makes him more vulnerable. But wearing all this kit to do work outdoors, on your own, seems OTT to me.

 

[Bantamzen]

A friend who lives in Italy says you go to the bar (there's a bottle of Hand Sanitiser on the counter). You sit down and are requested to keep 1m distance. That's it.

But in the U.K. you are guaranteed to get to a new level of Bureaucracy as the Covid-Stasi will insist on people having been of Covid-Safe sources.....

Its the kind of bureaucratic wibble we seem to revel in here in Blightly. I fear it will still be here long after the rest of the world has just got on with it...

 

[Huntergreed]

Its the kind of bureaucratic wibble we seem to revel in here in Blightly. I fear it will still be here long after the rest of the world has just got on with it...

The government used scare tactics, and through doing so actually managed to fall into the trap of over perceiving the risks themselves. We seem to be taking far more precautions than many other places for no particular reason:

A lot of countries are coping fine with 1m. We’ve moved to “1m” plus, which largely means that 2m must be kept unless it’s impossible, and where it is reduced it must be mitigated (other countries manage fine without mitigation)

Masks AND Distancing on public transport. Many countries are operating at full capacity and only mandating masks and there doesn’t seem to be any issues with this.

Overly excessive restrictions to the hospitality industry through detailed guidance making visits feel completely unnatural (and perhaps a little dystopian) and yet other countries manage with just asking people to consider personal space and practice good hygiene.

 

[nedchester]

The government used scare tactics, and through doing so actually managed to fall into the trap of over perceiving the risks themselves. We seem to be taking far more precautions than many other places for no particular reason:

A lot of countries are coping fine with 1m. We’ve moved to “1m” plus, which largely means that 2m must be kept unless it’s impossible, and where it is reduced it must be mitigated (other countries manage fine without mitigation)

Masks AND Distancing on public transport. Many countries are operating at full capacity and only mandating masks and there doesn’t seem to be any issues with this.

Overly excessive restrictions to the hospitality industry through detailed guidance making visits feel completely unnatural (and perhaps a little dystopian) and yet other countries manage with just asking people to consider personal space and practice good hygiene.

Exactly. I've seen pubs asking for photo ID to verify your details before signing the 'register' (GDPR anyone?) and then being shown to your seat etc. This is for going for a quiet drink with friends. FFS!

 

[Enthusiast]

I feel pretty certain that in other countries that are reopening bars & restaurants don't make it sound like you are entering an area of high radiation....

That's because other countries (at least those that I have visited) don't seem to have local authorities who absolutely rub their hands with glee when they have the least excuse to tell people what to do and what not to do. The "opening up" of hospitality, barbers, etc. threatens to be almost as big a disaster as keeping them closed if this nonsense is allowed to prevail. The so-called guidance to pubs (basically "try to keep your customers and staff from having to come too close to each other if they don't want to and keep your glasses and cutlery clean") runs to 43 pages.

But in the U.K. you are guaranteed to get to a new level of Bureaucracy as the Covid-Stasi will insist on people having been of Covid-Safe sources.....

As above. And the Covid-Stasi staff will be from the same local authorities that have spent money sticking gormless stickers on pavements and lamposts telling people to "keep their distance" and who have narrowed roads to widen pavements. The same authorities who, yesterday, announced that they were about to go bankrupt.

There is an old saying along the lines of "We won the war but are now losing the peace." Well we didn't win the war because (incredible as it may seem) the virus is still spreading. We're certainly in grave danger of losing the peace.

 

[45107]

Exactly. I've seen pubs asking for photo ID to verify your details before signing the 'register' (GDPR anyone?) and then being shown to your seat etc. This is for going for a quiet drink with friends. FFS!

What country is this ?

 

[Enthusiast]

But it seems a small revolt may be brewing (pun intended):

Boss of pub chain Marston's declares war on coronavirus red tape

The Wolverhampton-based group, which owns the Pitcher & Piano and Revere chains, said it would leave pens and paper for customers to fill out their details if they wanted to.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Mr Findlay, 59, said issues such as PPE and contact details were ‘requests’ from the Government and not rules."

Let's see how his establishments fare when the Local Authorities' "Covid Compliance Teams" pitch up to check them out. I wish them the very best.

 

[Journeyman]

Frankly it read more like some guidance given to you from a tour guide on the edges of the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone than going to your local for a pint.

I've been to the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. Apart from a short briefing at the beginning, where they tell you not to sit on or put your stuff on the ground, not to touch anything or not to eat and drink outdoors, they pretty much trust you to be sensible. And you know what? I made it back alive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Stockholm (where they never shut in the first place) you turn up to a bar/pub and grab a seat/table and they take your order. In many cases you can still order at the bar - but no hanging/crowding at the bar, so they’ll often say they’ll bring the drink to your table (which sometimes they did before anyway). You can of course still move around to talk with people you may see who you know as long as you don’t crowd other customers.

If people turn up and there is nowhere to sit staff calmly tell them that there is no room - basically like a full restaurant.

At one place I frequent the same old menus are handed out. Emphasis is on hand washing and tables and stools are wiped down (but they should be anyway!).

I think it helps that in pretty much every non-English-speaking country, table service is the norm (as well as acceptance that if the tables all have someone sat at them, it's full), so they don't have to get used to it. It's a big habit change in the UK which might need people to be guided a bit. Even in many gastropubs you order your food at the bar.

 

[ChrisC]

I agree that it’s now important that we all try to get out and about and to get businesses open again. However, is the fact that the press are now referring to next Saturday as Super Saturday just helping to bring about more problems like we have seen during the recent hot weather on our beaches. With the social distancing and other regulations pubs will not be able to cope with huge numbers of people all descending upon them at once next weekend. Perhaps a slower, quieter, more gradual opening up without all the hype might have been more sensible and less chaotic. Also calling it Super Saturday will cause many to see it as a time to party and get drunk. We could see more crowds, more violent behaviour caused by drink, and even more litter on our streets. The figures this last week suggest that although there hasn’t been a rise in the number of cases of Coronavirus and deaths, the numbers are no longer falling as quickly as they were.

 

[BJames]

But it seems a small revolt may be brewing (pun intended):

Boss of pub chain Marston's declares war on coronavirus red tape

The Wolverhampton-based group, which owns the Pitcher & Piano and Revere chains, said it would leave pens and paper for customers to fill out their details if they wanted to.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Mr Findlay, 59, said issues such as PPE and contact details were ‘requests’ from the Government and not rules."

Let's see how his establishments fare when the Local Authorities' "Covid Compliance Teams" pitch up to check them out. I wish them the very best.

I've just had a look for my closest and it's much closer to me than I thought. Myself and my friends shall move our business to his pubs.

But seriously, good for him. If people are overly concerned they can go to pubs with more stringent restrictions. And he's giving staff the option to wear PPE if it would make them feel safer. But he's taking the guidance as what it is: guidance, and not law.

I see he also owns Pitcher & Piano.

Exactly. I've seen pubs asking for photo ID to verify your details before signing the 'register' (GDPR anyone?) and then being shown to your seat etc. This is for going for a quiet drink with friends. FFS!

Another example of nothing matters except covid.

Data protection? Who's that?
Pollution and global warming? Never heard of her.
Non covid-related illness? Best of luck.

 

[bramling]

I agree that it’s now important that we all try to get out and about and to get businesses open again. However, is the fact that the press are now referring to next Saturday as Super Saturday just helping to bring about more problems like we have seen during the recent hot weather on our beaches. With the social distancing and other regulations pubs will not be able to cope with huge numbers of people all descending upon them at once next weekend. Perhaps a slower, quieter, more gradual opening up without all the hype might have been more sensible and less chaotic. Also calling it Super Saturday will cause many to see it as a time to party and get drunk. We could see more crowds, more violent behaviour caused by drink, and even more litter on our streets. The figures this last week suggest that although there hasn’t been a rise in the number of cases of Coronavirus and deaths, the numbers are no longer falling as quickly as they were.

Yes another shambles in the making. Perhaps we have to hope the weather is less than fine. Surely it would have been more sensible to go for a “soft launch” on a Monday?

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes another shambles in the making. Perhaps we have to hope the weather is less than fine. Surely it would have been more sensible to go for a “soft launch” on a Monday?

Yes it is a bizarre decision, seems purely driven by populist politics.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've been to the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. Apart from a short briefing at the beginning, where they tell you not to sit on or put your stuff on the ground, not to touch anything or not to eat and drink outdoors, they pretty much trust you to be sensible. And you know what? I made it back alive.

I take it back, entering an English pub has stricter rules than entering the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it is a bizarre decision, seems purely driven by populist politics.

I even thought the way they were clearly saying "hotels on the 4th" then moving onto pubs made it clear it would be the 6th, and I was shocked to find it not.

Maybe they think based on other big stuff that hasn't caused spikes that it's worth the risk to have a big 4th July blowout!

 

[kylemore]

I'm more worried about the minority who don't want to take any precautions at all, don't respect the majority who do wish to take precautions, and think everything should just return to exactly how it was back in January. The ones who have completely forgotten that schools and hospitals were closing in early/mid March due to staff calling in sick or self isolating due to symptoms or their household members being ill with covid.

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority it is time to reform (or pause and reflect)"

 

[route101]

Was speaking to a guy last night , young person. Said he dosent go out , not even for a walk. I think before lockdown he wasnt one for going out anyway , so does not affect as much and is unemployed. Kinda sad to hear.