Coronavirus precautions: Has the world gone mad?

[kylemore]

I've just had a look for my closest and it's much closer to me than I thought. Myself and my friends shall move our business to his pubs.

But seriously, good for him. If people are overly concerned they can go to pubs with more stringent restrictions. And he's giving staff the option to wear PPE if it would make them feel safer. But he's taking the guidance as what it is: guidance, and not law.

I see he also owns Pitcher & Piano.


Another example of nothing matters except covid.

Data protection? Who's that?
Pollution and global warming? Never heard of her.
Non covid-related illness? Best of luck.

I wonder if they have any pubs in the Glasgow and Kilmarnock areas?

If so they will be getting my business - I will not be going to pubs that are signed up to the NEW STUPID!

 

[BJames]

I wonder if they have any pubs in the Glasgow and Kilmarnock areas?

If so they will be getting my business - I will not be going to pubs that are signed up to the NEW STUPID!

They do have in Glasgow by the looks of it - have a look at: https://www.marstons.co.uk/pubs/finder/

I didn't realise we even had any near me, I'd rather go to this pub as it's much less likely to be filled with the ultra paranoid.

 

[LAX54]

There does seem to be a developing theme that some people in this country can’t take no for an answer. Look no further than Bournemouth this week for a demonstration of what this leads to.

Buy who on earth would wnat to go to a beach that is that full anyway ? also what type of lens was used on the camera, a telephoto, even a small one, that draws everyhting forward ??

 

[Huntergreed]

Is is just me that thinks Britain isn't being at all logical in their reopening? They don't seem to be 'easing' things, if anything they seem to be simply changing them, and they're opening businesses but implementing extremely restrictive guidance that makes it very difficult for many of these businesses to be financially sustainable whatsoever?

Examples:

Many countries are coping just fine with an unmitigated 1m social distancing guideline, here we initially insisted on the overly cautious 2m, and even now we still can't accept 1m to be safe, so we're maintaining the 2m rule in many settings and where it's impossible it can be reduced but only with mitigation which other countries haven't seemed to require.

It's now mandatory for facemasks and distancing on public transport, this is a restriction that has actually tightened since the peak and the tougher lockdown, as it was just the latter that was required then. Many countries seem to be coping fine with an open public transport network and no distancing with face masks, and here we have both masks and distancing, combined with some TOC's essentially telling their passengers to **** off to make their jobs easier.

Many countries are coping by reopening without restrictive 'rules' or 'guidance' but by simply asking the public to use common sense and to distance where reasonably possible. It seems our government can't trust us so need to write 40-50 page guidance books for every type of business that reopens and then employ 'covid compliance inspectors' to make sure businesses are enforcing the requirements.

We can't go on like this. This country is becoming a semi-dystopian state when other countries, who have the exact same virus, do not require restrictions anywhere near as tight to keep it under control. I appreciate we cannot allow the NHS to be overwhelmed, but we cannot go on like this for much longer. It's economically unviable, it's destroying our culture and the social aspects of life (ie the enjoyable parts of life) and it's, quite frankly, dystopian.

 

[kylemore]

They do have in Glasgow by the looks of it - have a look at: https://www.marstons.co.uk/pubs/finder/

I didn't realise we even had any near me, I'd rather go to this pub as it's much less likely to be filled with the ultra paranoid.

Thanks I'll have a look.

Reward the businesses that are being sensible, punish those that are joining in the New Stupid!

 

[45107]

Is is just me that thinks Britain isn't being at all logical in their reopening? They don't seem to be 'easing' things, if anything they seem to be simply changing them, and they're opening businesses but implementing extremely restrictive guidance that makes it very difficult for many of these businesses to be financially sustainable whatsoever?

Examples:

Many countries are coping just fine with an unmitigated 1m social distancing guideline, here we initially insisted on the overly cautious 2m, and even now we still can't accept 1m to be safe, so we're maintaining the 2m rule in many settings and where it's impossible it can be reduced but only with mitigation which other countries haven't seemed to require.

It's now mandatory for facemasks and distancing on public transport, this is a restriction that has actually tightened since the peak and the tougher lockdown, as it was just the latter that was required then. Many countries seem to be coping fine with an open public transport network and no distancing with face masks, and here we have both masks and distancing, combined with some TOC's essentially telling their passengers to **** off to make their jobs easier.

Many countries are coping by reopening without restrictive 'rules' or 'guidance' but by simply asking the public to use common sense and to distance where reasonably possible. It seems our government can't trust us so need to write 40-50 page guidance books for every type of business that reopens and then employ 'covid compliance inspectors' to make sure businesses are enforcing the requirements.

We can't go on like this. This country is becoming a semi-dystopian state when other countries, who have the exact same virus, do not require restrictions anywhere near as tight to keep it under control. I appreciate we cannot allow the NHS to be overwhelmed, but we cannot go on like this for much longer. It's economically unviable, it's destroying our culture and the social aspects of life (ie the enjoyable parts of life) and it's, quite frankly, dystopian.

Many countries that have relaxed restricitions also have a far lower infection and death rate.

And if you look at the US where restricitions have been lifted, there has been a big increases in cases in a number of states.

 

[talldave]

Many countries that have relaxed restricitions also have a far lower infection and death rate.

And maybe that's because they're not as obese and unhealthy as us?

 

[Class 33]

I was going to comment about the daily Coronavirus deaths over the past week. The deaths last Sunday were just 15, which was very very encouraging. That was a weekend though, so I was fully expecting Monday's death released on Tuesday to shoot up above 100 again. However up until today, the daily deaths over the past 4 days I found very concerning as each day was consistently over 140. And in fact Wednesday's and Thursday's deaths were both a little higher than the corresponding days the previous week. I was getting very concerned that the deaths were beginning to flat-line and even beginning to consistently rising up again to over 200+ per day. But the deaths released today were reassuring I found, as they were down to just 84. That's quite a drop from Thursday's(released on Friday!) deaths of 186. Of course though, that's 84 deaths too many. But that is the lowest WEEKDAY daily deaths since about mid March. Hopefully this is the true beginning now of sub 100 deaths per day. Will be very interesting to see what this weekend's deaths are, as last Sunday's were just 15, so it could possibly be a ZERO deaths day this Sunday, or if not, not very far off that, should surely be in single digits anyway.

Anyway, fingers crossed the Coronavirus deaths will continue to fall and fall over the coming weeks now. By September, the daily deaths should surely easily be sub 50 per day consistently. And it will be absolute insane and madness if by then, we still have to continue on and on and on with this social distancing nonsense and all the restrictions and hassle that involves, as well as the catastrophic damage it is continuing to do to the UK economy. Chris Witty has said a number of times now "Social distancing is here to stay now.". Sorry Chris, but it just can't stay. We need to move on, to allow us to get on with our lives PROPERLY and start getting the economy back to normal. Come September 1st, I really hope that social distancing is well and truly scrapped.

 

[45107]

And maybe that's because they're not as obese and unhealthy as us?

What percentage of UK cases are people who are/were classed as obese ?

 

[talldave]

What percentage of UK cases are people who are/were classed as obese ?

I've not seen figures for the UK but in other parts of Europe 70%+ of critically ill patients are obese and they probably have less of an obesity crisis than us. Although nobody's been interested up to now, obesity was the biggest threat to the NHS before coronavirus hit. Apparently our obese PM has changed his tune...let's see....

 

[Freightmaster]

I was going to comment about the daily Coronavirus deaths over the past week. The deaths last Sunday were just 15, which was very very encouraging. That was a weekend though, so I was fully expecting Monday's death released on Tuesday to shoot up above 100 again. However up until today, the daily deaths over the past 4 days I found very concerning as each day was consistently over 140. And in fact Wednesday's and Thursday's deaths were both a little higher than the corresponding days the previous week. I was getting very concerned that the deaths were beginning to flat-line and even beginning to consistently rising up again to over 200+ per day. But the deaths released today were reassuring I found, as they were down to just 84.

When figures are low/falling, there tends to be far more statistical 'noise' (unpredictability),
which is why it's always better (for your blood pressure at least!) to look at seven day rolling
averages rather than the individual daily totals...



MARK

 

[corfield]

I did say it was to build the infrastructure. So if there is a second wave we just herd it out which puts us back to the only reason we spend x extra weeks inside was because we couldn’t order enough Perspex or face masks.

Spot on posts - and shows how we have drifted off the original intent which was just to buy time and which was acheived weeks ago when the additional capacity was suspended. The problem is that our safety/risk obsessed culture has kicked in and now wants to “manage” or even worse “eradicate” the virus. The current word doing the rounds is “secure” it.

Hence all the nonsense on trains mentioned above as well as the jobsworths on shop doors, the one-way markings on oavements and shop aisles (all largely ignored as impracticable). Indeed a cynic would suggest the shops know this is all nonsense but do it to keep up appearances, ie pretence, so they can keep trading.

Hence also why an increasing number of people are ignoring all of it because none of the “still stay at home, still dont see anyone” mantra stacks up on a risk assessment against other risks we face and the overwhelming risk of economic suicide and loss of the wealth to sustain the stand of living including healthcare that we depend uppn.

Our plan to reduce the rate of spread and build capacity worked, and I can see nothing that would have stopped the people who died from dying.
We should weeks ago have started easing things whilst in parallel refocussing our efforts on supporting those in vulnerable categories.
Even now it seems the lifting of lock down is a blanket approach which is wrong.

 

[corfield]

Another bonus is that there's almost no chance of the legendary second wave in Sweden.

Whilst I admire the Swedes, the massive discrepancy in their deaths vs Denmark and Norway suggest Sweden’s response might not be all that some (including I) hoped it was.

 

[corfield]

Buy who on earth would wnat to go to a beach that is that full anyway ? also what type of lens was used on the camera, a telephoto, even a small one, that draws everyhting forward ??

In weather like that, those beaches would look exactly the same any year. Including sadly the rubbish left behind.

 

[takno]

Whilst I admire the Swedes, the massive discrepancy in their deaths vs Denmark and Norway suggest Sweden’s response might not be all that some (including I) hoped it was.

This one's been done to death. Much of the UK media and WHO seem hell bent on misquoting the Swedish, misinterpreting stats, and finding the worst possible comparisons. They are absolutely furious that an alternative to their beloved lockdown looks like a pretty credible response.

 

[corfield]

This one's been done to death. Much of the UK media and WHO seem hell bent on misquoting the Swedish, misinterpreting stats, and finding the worst possible comparisons. They are absolutely furious that an alternative to their beloved lockdown looks like a pretty credible response.

Hmmm, well I’ve obviously missed that - but given the data

Coronavirus death rate in Europe, by country 2023 | Statista

As of January 13, 2023, Bulgaria had the highest rate of COVID-19 deaths among its population in Europe at 548.6 deaths per 100,000 population.

www.statista.com

shows Sweden is up with the worst hit countries, in stark contrast to its directly comparable neighbours, then what are these “mis-qoutes/misinterpretations”?

Again, I’m in favour of their approach but the numbers are not encouraging.

 

[HSTEd]

shows Sweden is up with the worst hit countries, in stark contrast to its directly comparable neighbours, then what are these “mis-qoutes/misinterpretations”?

And?
There strategy was always going to have more deaths.
But thats not the point.

So far Sweden is doing rather well considering their economy is in far better shape than the lockdwon ones.

A lot of people are misrepresenting stats in a desperate attempt to make Sweden's situation look worse.
Like still peddling the hilarious lie of the V shaped depression in the rest of Europe, whilst assuming Sweden will have an L shape.

EDIT:

Sweden is projected to lose 4% of GDP in 2020.
As opposed to 10+% projected in the UK, and I think that is still too optimistic.

 

[MikeWM]

Again, I’m in favour of their approach but the numbers are not encouraging.

They messed up on care homes, which accounts for much of it. They’ve openly admittedly they got that wrong, as they have a semi-reasonable government that is willing to explain their strategy and their mistakes. Unlike ours, who refuse to say anything they did wrong.

 

[LAX54]

Hmmm, well I’ve obviously missed that - but given the data

Coronavirus death rate in Europe, by country 2023 | Statista

As of January 13, 2023, Bulgaria had the highest rate of COVID-19 deaths among its population in Europe at 548.6 deaths per 100,000 population.

www.statista.com

shows Sweden is up with the worst hit countries, in stark contrast to its directly comparable neighbours, then what are these “mis-qoutes/misinterpretations”?

Again, I’m in favour of their approach but the numbers are not encouraging.

But then of course the population of Sweden is nearly 100% more than Finland and Denmark, so bound to have more 'cases', so they still seem to have done well overall, and it does question the value of a lockdown, which just postpones more cases.

 

[yorkie]

Some stations have switched "Keep left" to "Keep right" for no immediately apparent reason or tangible benefit.

Examples include Chesterfield and Huddersfield; no doubt there will be others.

 

[corfield]

Hmmm, their death rate is vast vs that of neighbours - population adjusted.

They have 10million and over 5000 deaths.

Norway, Finland and Denmark have 15 million and 1000deaths.

So nothing other than “care homes” then as a reason. I read that amounts to half their deaths.

So why then still 2 1/2 times greater than their comparable neighbours who have 50% more population?

And that doesnt sccount for many of their deaths having been care homes - knocking say 30% off their figures leaves you a four fold difference and still only 2/3rds equivalent population.

And the point of a strategy is to minimise deaths.

Again I like their strategy but the numbers are not bearing it out.



Our Govt on openness reflects also that the Opposition, Media and the People are unable to cope with honest admittals, errors and mistakes, and demand scalps for every midsdemeanour, hence they end up hiding them.

Just as we see in my world (aviation engineering) where we’ve learnt we have to accept errors and mistakes and thus people have the confidence to come forward with them. Hnece we have a better idea of what actually happens and goes wrong and can do something about it and be safer for it. Doing elsewise drives people to lengths to cover up and lie and then whilst the stats lool better we are actually ignorant and unsafe.

That is not our national way however and certainly not in the Govt-Media arena.

 

[DB]

Whilst I admire the Swedes, the massive discrepancy in their deaths vs Denmark and Norway suggest Sweden’s response might not be all that some (including I) hoped it was.

From what I've read, their biggest mistake seems to have been not to have strict access control and testing for care homes and the like - a failing also seen in this country.

 

[takno]

Hmmm, their death rate is vast vs that of neighbours - population adjusted.

They have 10million and over 5000 deaths.

Norway, Finland and Denmark have 15 million and 1000deaths.

So nothing other than “care homes” then as a reason. I read that amounts to half their deaths.

So why then still 2 1/2 times greater than their comparable neighbours who have 50% more population?

And that doesnt sccount for many of their deaths having been care homes - knocking say 30% off their figures leaves you a four fold difference and still only 2/3rds equivalent population.

And the point of a strategy is to minimise deaths.

Again I like their strategy but the numbers are not bearing it out.

Deaths outside of nursing homes so far are possibly 3x the average rate of neighbouring economies (whilst still much better than ours) and dropping steadily. If there is a second wave then other countries are likely to catch up. Meanwhile they haven't taken the same reckless risks with their entire populations futures, and the massive global recession we are entering may well kill more people in Norway and Sweden than the lockdown which caused it save.

You say that the point of a strategy is to minimise deaths, but frankly that isn't and shouldn't be the only point of a strategy. The deaths in Sweden are, as in most other countries, overwhelmingly focused on the over 80s, and even they have an 80% survival rate if they get sick with Covid there.

We shouldn't be throwing all our own chances of getting to 80 away to give the current 80 year olds a slightly better chance of another couple of years.

 

[corfield]

From what I've read, their biggest mistake seems to have been not to have strict access control and testing for care homes and the like - a failing also seen in this country.

My father is in a care home and they locked down very early. No access at all until very recently and their self imposed measures were extremely tight. We cynically commented it was because they didnt want to lose their golden geese

 

[corfield]

Deaths outside of nursing homes so far are possibly 3x the average rate of neighbouring economies (whilst still much better than ours) and dropping steadily. If there is a second wave then other countries are likely to catch up. Meanwhile they haven't taken the same reckless risks with their entire populations futures, and the massive global recession we are entering may well kill more people in Norway and Sweden than the lockdown which caused it save.

You say that the point of a strategy is to minimise deaths, but frankly that isn't and shouldn't be the only point of a strategy. The deaths in Sweden are, as in most other countries, overwhelmingly focused on the over 80s, and even they have an 80% survival rate if they get sick with Covid there.

We shouldn't be throwing all our own chances of getting to 80 away to give the current 80 year olds a slightly better chance of another couple of years.

Any link to the threefold stat? Evidence for those coming down? Evidence for the assertion they wont have a spike (no-one yet knows how that will happen - notwithstanding lots of opinions).

When you discuss the economy it comes across awfully like an attempt to distract from the basic premise that their approach has led to a hell of a lot more dead people than their neighbours.

Whilst you suggest it might level out a bit in the future, that has ‘t happened, and any covid spikes will be against the context of potential treatments, care facilities and possobly even a vaccine.
Equally the economic damage is going to be severe for all - Sweden is not a sandpit and so loses from other nations losses.

So taking your death hit early but reducing the economic hit might not be as good as it sounds when the economy is still hit by association and the “later” deaths elsewhere are ameliorated by improved care/treatment etc.

 

[DB]

Sweden is still doing better than a number of countries (including this one) that adopted more stringent measures:

COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista

COVID deaths worldwide were highest in Peru, topping a list that compares deaths per million in 210 countries worldwide.

www.statista.com

	Deaths per million
Belgium	851.51
United Kingdom	650.18
Spain	606.27
Italy	573.84
Sweden	513.59

 

[HSTEd]

When you discuss the economy it comes across awfully like an attempt to distract from the basic premise that their approach has led to a hell of a lot more dead people than their neighbours.

A bad economy kills people.
People don't like to accept this premise, but it is true.
The economy is not just a line on a graph like a lot of, largely rich people safe at home on furlough, like to claim.

Locking down buys the old a couple more years of life on average, at the expense of huge damage to the young.

EDIT:
It's hard to get good stats, but from what I can tell, so far Finland is looking at economic damage comparable to ours, which is drastically worse than Sweden.
Swedens economy is getting hit by the global depression that has started, but the other economies will get smashed by the lockdown, then hit by the same depression.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone else have any contributions regarding the thread title, Coronavirus precautions: Has the world gone mad?

If anyone wishes to post on any other subject, please use an existing alternative thread (if there is one) or create a new one (if there isn't). Thank you

 

[island]

Exactly. I've seen pubs asking for photo ID to verify your details before signing the 'register' (GDPR anyone?) and then being shown to your seat etc. This is for going for a quiet drink with friends. FFS!

GDPR is often cited as a reason to not do something. But it does not prevent this particular data use, as it will qualify as processing personal data to protect the vital interests of the data subject and other persons.

Copies of the ID should not, of course, be kept, and the personal data given should not be visible to other patrons unnecessarily.

 

[45107]

GDPR is often cited as a reason to not do something. But it does not prevent this particular data use, as it will qualify as processing personal data to protect the vital interests of the data subject and other persons.

Copies of the ID should not, of course, be kept, and the personal data given should not be visible to other patrons unnecessarily.

Having spoken to the landlord of my local pub today when collecting a takeaway, he advises that the guidelines they have are to keep the details for 21 days and dispose of them.
GDPR apparently does not apply for data held for less than 28 days.