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Could HS2 trains terminate at Old Oak Common?

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The Planner

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Also in the statement
"increase the number of trains that Old Oak Common station can serve from 3 to 6 trains per hour whilst it acts as the temporary London terminus."
Would this allow Old Oak Common terminators once the line is extended to Euston?
Yes, but not sure you would do it.
 

Bald Rick

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Also in the statement
"increase the number of trains that Old Oak Common station can serve from 3 to 6 trains per hour whilst it acts as the temporary London terminus."
Would this allow Old Oak Common terminators once the line is extended to Euston?

Physically yes, but not timetable-able. And you wouldn’t want to do it for commercial or operational reasons either, except when the route is closed east of OOC.
 

telstarbox

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Is "Old Oak Common" confirmed as a station name? I don't think it's particularly well known as an area of London compared to "Park Royal" or "Willesden", although that was probably true for Canary Wharf back in the day...
 

Irascible

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Is "Old Oak Common" confirmed as a station name? I don't think it's particularly well known as an area of London compared to "Park Royal" or "Willesden", although that was probably true for Canary Wharf back in the day...
I guess you could call it Wormwood Scrubs if you really wanted something a bit more known...
 

adamedwards

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Terminating at Old Oak Common would be like terminating LNER at Finsbury Park. Why would it be a good idea? I'm confused.
 

NSE

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Whilst Finsbury Park is not badly connected, Old Oak Common will be a huge hub. I’d say it would be more like, terminating at Stratford. And I do sort of see the logic, as a lot of people will get off at Old Oak for local and other London connections.
 

edwin_m

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Whilst Finsbury Park is not badly connected, Old Oak Common will be a huge hub. I’d say it would be more like, terminating at Stratford. And I do sort of see the logic, as a lot of people will get off at Old Oak for local and other London connections.
There's Crossrail, but other than that only the GW suburban service , Heathrow and various Overground routes and the Central line involving a walk of several hundred metres through the streets (unless the ideas for better integration actually happen). Passengers for central London have a different selection of onward connections from Euston, which also provides better links north and south. Old Oak on its own has far less connectivity than Old Oak plus Euston.

If HS2 somehow approached from the east and terminated at Stratford, it would have connectivity north (Overground), south (Jubilee/DLR), east (Crossrail and GE) and west (Crossrail and Central Line). In that case pushing on to terminate in the the Liverpool Street area wouldn't add much, but if it continued to the Kings Cross or Euston area it would still improve connections northwards.
 

NSE

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Oh I’m not saying Old Oak serves everyone. Just that there are a lot of local connections that will be well used and so if a train only ran as far as there then it wouldn’t be a totally useless service.
 

Ianno87

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Oh I’m not saying Old Oak serves everyone. Just that there are a lot of local connections that will be well used and so if a train only ran as far as there then it wouldn’t be a totally useless service.

But why wouldn't you just make use of the same path to carry on to Euston while you're at it?
 

coppercapped

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Oh I’m not saying Old Oak serves everyone. Just that there are a lot of local connections that will be well used and so if a train only ran as far as there then it wouldn’t be a totally useless service.
Why do you think the connections would be well used? Are there that number of people travelling from Birmingham or Manchester who want to go to Hanwell or Iver? Some passengers may want to get to Heathrow but I note that both these cities also have their own airports.

I agree that there will probably a greater number who will connect to Crossrail travelling east towards central London, but would the sum of all these flows make an economic load for an HS2 train?
 

adamedwards

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Also from Euston there are several things within walking distance of the station, for example, the University of London, the British Library and St Pancras (Eur0star) which are places people would want to go to.
The other issue with terminating short is how you change crews, clean the train and supply the buffet. Adding all this to OOC adds cost. I sincerely hope the answer is an emergency connection into the rest of Euston for those times when the service gets in a muddle. Clearly Grant Shapps has never been on late train if he thinks 10 platforms is ok!
 

NSE

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But why wouldn't you just make use of the same path to carry on to Euston while you're at it?
Personally, I would. I’m just saying there are connections so in response to the poster that likened it to LNER terminating at Finsbury Park, I’m simply pointing out I think there would be more merit or logic in terminating at Old Oak Common than LNER at Finsbury Park. Assuming GWR stop some long distance stuff there (I don’t know the details), you’ll have people getting on to crossrail, services to Reading, Bristol, Exeter etc. Enough that if for whatever reason there was a path to OOC that couldn’t continue to Euston, I don’t think the train would be 100% empty.
 

swt_passenger

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Personally, I would. I’m just saying there are connections so in response to the poster that likened it to LNER terminating at Finsbury Park, I’m simply pointing out I think there would be more merit or logic in terminating at Old Oak Common than LNER at Finsbury Park. Assuming GWR stop some long distance stuff there (I don’t know the details), you’ll have people getting on to crossrail, services to Reading, Bristol, Exeter etc. Enough that if for whatever reason there was a path to OOC that couldn’t continue to Euston, I don’t think the train would be 100% empty.
It’s been said in the Western route strategies that all GWR services will call, which is why they are getting an 8 platform station, 4 main and 4 relief.
 

swt_passenger

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Which for a journey such as one I make regularly, Oxford/Glasgow, makes changing at OOC onto HS2 a very attractive alternative to going via Birmingham.
If you assume Oxford to Glasgow via OOC will be a permitted route? It’s not going to be that direct.
 

Ianno87

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If you assume Oxford to Glasgow via OOC will be a permitted route? It’s not going to be that direct.

Could buy two seperate tickets if it's fastest. As quite a few ticket retailers would offer anyway.

Assuming the notion of "Permitted Routes" (And the whole BR-legacy ticketing system as we know it) is even still a thing by the end of this decade when HS2 is up and running.
 

swt_passenger

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Could buy two seperate tickets if it's fastest. As quite a few ticket retailers would offer anyway.

Assuming the notion of "Permitted Routes" is even still a thing by the end of this decade when HS2 is up and running.
I’m sure there‘ll have to be something to deal with questionable routes, even if it’s just the guard‘s opinion. Pre-privatisation BR had the concept of ‘reasonable routes’ didn’t they?
 

edwin_m

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Which for a journey such as one I make regularly, Oxford/Glasgow, makes changing at OOC onto HS2 a very attractive alternative to going via Birmingham.
Oxford to Paddington is about 20min less than Oxford to Birmingham, so OOC will be about 25min less. OOC to Birmingham is 38min. Assuming they make the Curzon Street to New Street transfer reasonably slick, the only reason Oxford to Glasgow might be much quicker is by catching a London-Glasgow train with fewer stops than a Birmingham-Glasgow. Even then that might be possible at Birmingham Interchange.
 

Bletchleyite

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If you assume Oxford to Glasgow via OOC will be a permitted route? It’s not going to be that direct.

It is looking likely that HS2 will be compulsory reservation and airline-style ticketing very much like TGV, this being the case you'd split if you wanted to do that.

Even if we assume the ticketing system is exactly the same as now, it is inconceivable that there wouldn't be a "route Old Oak Common" ticket, possibly at a higher price, just as there are tickets from Watford Junction to Edinburgh via London, you don't have to go north using Avanti.

Edit: there is already a +ANY PERMITTED ticket to Edinburgh from Oxford, which is clearly intended to involve going via Kings Cross on LNER (the others are NOT LONDON which I guess implies XC at least as far as Brum). So that's no different, and if HS2 did use the existing ticketing system would be valid without any alterations at all.

Edit edit: for Glasgow you have YORK, BANBURY PRESTON and +ANY PERMITTED, so the same there. The former is clearly intended for XC, the middle one changing to Avanti at Brum, and the latter to go via Euston but assuming no fares system change would also be valid on HS2.
 

BayPaul

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Also from Euston there are several things within walking distance of the station, for example, the University of London, the British Library and St Pancras (Eur0star) which are places people would want to go to.
The other issue with terminating short is how you change crews, clean the train and supply the buffet. Adding all this to OOC adds cost. I sincerely hope the answer is an emergency connection into the rest of Euston for those times when the service gets in a muddle. Clearly Grant Shapps has never been on late train if he thinks 10 platforms is ok!
The HS2 and WCML sections of Euston are at very different vertical levels, and the platforms are different lengths. I therefore think it is very unlikely that a useful emergency connection could be provided. Much more likely is simply terminating a few trains short at OOC when they are so far out of sequence that they can't recover in time to go back out again. Considering how frequent trains will be from OOC to Euston, and that it should be pretty unusual for them to be that delayed, I don't think that it will cause a monstrous inconvenience to passengers or staff, and in fact should work much better than an 11th platform to help HS2 as a whole recover from delays, as the 11th platform only solves what to do with a delayed inbound train, not how to sort its return journey. As I recall OOC has 6 platforms for HS2, of which only 4 are needed for the regular service. Personally I would keep a spare train in one of the other platforms, which could run into Euston in the path of any badly delayed train, ready to take up the northbound journey, with the delayed train terminating at OOC and taking over the spare train slot.
 

swt_passenger

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It is looking likely that HS2 will be compulsory reservation and airline-style ticketing very much like TGV, this being the case you'd split if you wanted to do that.

Even if we assume the ticketing system is exactly the same as now, it is inconceivable that there wouldn't be a "route Old Oak Common" ticket, possibly at a higher price, just as there are tickets from Watford Junction to Edinburgh via London, you don't have to go north using Avanti.

Edit: there is already a +ANY PERMITTED ticket to Edinburgh from Oxford, which is clearly intended to involve going via Kings Cross on LNER (the others are NOT LONDON which I guess implies XC at least as far as Brum). So that's no different, and if HS2 did use the existing ticketing system would be valid without any alterations at all.

Edit edit: for Glasgow you have YORK, BANBURY PRESTON and +ANY PERMITTED, so the same there. The former is clearly intended for XC, the middle one changing to Avanti at Brum, and the latter to go via Euston but assuming no fares system change would also be valid on HS2.
I reckon (as others have suggested in previous threads) there’ll be no time advantage going from Oxford via OOC to an HS2 destination compared to going via Birmingham international and Interchange.
 

Bletchleyite

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I reckon (as others have suggested in previous threads) there’ll be no time advantage going from Oxford via OOC to an HS2 destination compared to going via Birmingham international and Interchange.

And (again assuming no change to ticketing) the existing NOT LONDON/BANBURY PRESTON tickets would be valid that way.
 

Purple Orange

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I often think that OOC will be the more useful station to disembark at, in many cases. The best route to many areas of central London will be to change on to crossrail rather theb continue from there.
 

Falcon1200

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Oxford to Paddington is about 20min less than Oxford to Birmingham, so OOC will be about 25min less. OOC to Birmingham is 38min. Assuming they make the Curzon Street to New Street transfer reasonably slick, the only reason Oxford to Glasgow might be much quicker is by catching a London-Glasgow train with fewer stops than a Birmingham-Glasgow. Even then that might be possible at Birmingham Interchange.

I would expect to catch a direct Euston-Glasgow via HS2 service from OOC, no need to change at Birmingham, which would surely be faster than any current route ?

(And hopefully it will change but at present Avanti have totally withdrawn their Birmingham/Glasgow trains !
 
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JamesT

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I would expect to catch a direct Euston-Glasgow via HS2 service from OOC, no need to change at Birmingham, which would surely be faster than any current route ?

(And hopefully it will change but at present Avanti have totally withdrawn their Birmingham/Glasgow trains !)

If you want to go between somewhere near London and Glasgow, then that will be the natural route you'd take. The question here is that Oxford is sufficiently far from London that it may continue to be faster to travel to Birmingham and change to HS2 there (either at Interchange or Curzon Street), or whether the speed of HS2 makes it faster to add the extra distance of going via London to get between Oxford and Glasgow. The if the latter is faster whether the ticketing system will allow that without excessive hoop jumping/
 

Falcon1200

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The question here is that Oxford is sufficiently far from London that it may continue to be faster to travel to Birmingham and change to HS2 there (either at Interchange or Curzon Street),

That is a possibility, but will Euston/Glasgow HS2 trains actually stop anywhere in Birmingham; The current Avanti Euston/Glasgow trains are, mostly, non-stop between Euston and Warrington.
 

JamesT

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That is a possibility, but will Euston/Glasgow HS2 trains actually stop anywhere in Birmingham; The current Avanti Euston/Glasgow trains are, mostly, non-stop between Euston and Warrington.

The currently proposed post-Phase 2 service pattern has 1tph Euston/Glasgow stopping at Interchange and 1tp2h doing Birmingham/Glasgow
 
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