Could HS2 trains terminate at Old Oak Common?

[edwin_m]

I would expect to catch a direct Euston-Glasgow via HS2 service from OOC, no need to change at Birmingham, which would surely be faster than any current route ?

The post of mine you quoted strongly suggests there will be little if any difference.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would expect to catch a direct Euston-Glasgow via HS2 service from OOC, no need to change at Birmingham, which would surely be faster than any current route ?

When Phase 2 is open:

Oxford to Glasgow via OOC will be around 4h20 time on the trains, plus the interchange / wait time at OOC.

Oxford to Glasgow via International / Interchange will be around 4h10 on trains, plus the interchange / wait time.

On the face of it, via International will be quicker, although depending on the relevant connection timings, either route could be quicker.

 

[BayPaul]

When Phase 2 is open:

Oxford to Glasgow via OOC will be around 4h20 time on the trains, plus the interchange / wait time at OOC.

Oxford to Glasgow via International / Interchange will be around 4h10 on trains, plus the interchange / wait time.

On the face of it, via International will be quicker, although depending on the relevant connection timings, either route could be quicker.

Interesting. OOC would probably be faster overall then, as the connection will be much quicker just over the bridge rather than the (as I recall) people mover at Birmingham, plus more frequent HS2 trains (2tph from OOC, vs 1tph from Interchange)

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting. OOC would probably be faster overall then, as the connection will be much quicker just over the bridge rather than the (as I recall) people mover at Birmingham, plus more frequent HS2 trains (2tph from OOC, vs 1tph from Interchange)

I suspect it will be 50/50 - if you think about it the frequency won’t matter if they are opposite each other in the clockface on both the Oxford service and HS2 service.

 

[Purple Orange]

I don’t see Birmingham as the place to interchange on HS2 at all, and I think many people assume it will because that’s how it’s always been done. If you are travelling from any of the large cities north of Birmingham that will be on the HS2 network, you’ve got a higher frequency to OOC than you do to Birmingham. If your destination is Reading or perhaps even Oxford you will be met with longer, more frequent trains at OOC and a change within the same station, than you will at Birmingham. What the whole HS2 network does is shift the cross country fulcrum away from Birmingham to OOC.

 

[BayPaul]

I don’t see Birmingham as the place to interchange on HS2 at all, and I think many people assume it will because that’s how it’s always been done. If you are travelling from any of the large cities north of Birmingham that will be on the HS2 network, you’ve got a higher frequency to OOC than you do to Birmingham. If your destination is Reading or perhaps even Oxford you will be met with longer, more frequent trains at OOC and a change within the same station, than you will at Birmingham. What the whole HS2 network does is shift the cross country fulcrum away from Birmingham to OOC.

I think it moves the fulcrum away from Birmingham, but only for a fairly small area - basically the Thames Valley. Oxford is probably the point where it is about the same journey time via OOC as in the previous comments, but it will very probably be cheaper via B Interchange. Reading, Didcot, Newbury, probably Swindon and Westbury and the small stations in that area will be quicker via OOC as well. Bristol and the West Country will probably be quicker via Birmingham, especially as their connection will be via Curzon Street which should have a lot more trains to the North than Interchange. Southampton and other SWR region stations will probably depend on how easy it is to get to OOC. If there is a way to fit in a couple of direct train to Basingstoke per hour then it'll probably be quicker via OOC. Otherwise, I'd imagine that going via Euston or Birmingham will be the fastest.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think it moves the fulcrum away from Birmingham, but only for a fairly small area - basically the Thames Valley. Oxford is probably the point where it is about the same journey time via OOC as in the previous comments, but it will very probably be cheaper via B Interchange. Reading, Didcot, Newbury, probably Swindon and Westbury and the small stations in that area will be quicker via OOC as well. Bristol and the West Country will probably be quicker via Birmingham, especially as their connection will be via Curzon Street which should have a lot more trains to the North than Interchange. Southampton and other SWR region stations will probably depend on how easy it is to get to OOC. If there is a way to fit in a couple of direct train to Basingstoke per hour then it'll probably be quicker via OOC. Otherwise, I'd imagine that going via Euston or Birmingham will be the fastest.

And that is why the current Cross Country network will be obsolete once HS2 is up and running. Some of the network may remain, but a XC network that accommodates more stops than it does today will not compete. Perhaps there wilm still be a direct Manchester-Bournemouth, but it will be slower than it is today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that is why the current Cross Country network will be obsolete once HS2 is up and running. Some of the network may remain, but a XC network that accommodates more stops than it does today will not compete.

Unless it goes back to its roots and exists not to provide clockface commuter services that happen to go a long way, but rather a lower number of direct services with a quality on-board environment for those who don't like changing and don't like road coaches.

Might however be more beneficial just to get rid.

 

[edwin_m]

And that is why the current Cross Country network will be obsolete once HS2 is up and running. Some of the network may remain, but a XC network that accommodates more stops than it does today will not compete. Perhaps there wilm still be a direct Manchester-Bournemouth, but it will be slower than it is today.

I think that's almost totally opposite to what the post you quoted is suggesting. XC already calls at most of the major stops on the routes it serves, so there's not much scope to add more. Where would you add stops in a Manchester-Bournemouth for example, it already stops just about anywhere of significance?

I suspect the main change to XC will be terminating the classic route trains at York, assuming HS2 has some kind of NE-SW service via Manchester, a truncated Eastern leg or whatever. There isn't capacity to run everything on to Newcastle.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think that's almost totally opposite to what the post you quoted is suggesting. XC already calls at most of the major stops on the routes it serves, so there's not much scope to add more. Where would you add stops in a Manchester-Bournemouth for example, it already stops just about anywhere of significance?

I suspect the main change to XC will be terminating the classic route trains at York, assuming HS2 has some kind of NE-SW service via Manchester, a truncated Eastern leg or whatever. There isn't capacity to run everything on to Newcastle.

Congleton and Sandwell & Dudley would be two additional stops between Brum & Manc. And by terminating at York, you're fundamentally changing the XC network.

Unless it goes back to its roots and exists not to provide clockface commuter services that happen to go a long way, but rather a lower number of direct services with a quality on-board environment for those who don't like changing and don't like road coaches.

Might however be more beneficial just to get rid.

I doubt it'll go back to a less frequent service with fewer stops. That just eats up capacity in to the big cities for the bigger commuter flows. A through service may still exist, but not for the purpose of having a train to keep those who dont like changing happy. Piccadilly, New Street and Leeds should be seeing the services that accommodates the most passengers and XC with passengers taken away on to HS2 is probably no longer as significant as it is today. At worst it'll be akin to the Cardiff-Manchester TfW service.

 

[Ianno87]

I doubt it'll go back to a less frequent service with fewer stops. That just eats up capacity in to the big cities for the bigger commuter flows. A through service may still exist, but not for the purpose of having a train to keep those who dont like changing happy. Piccadilly, New Street and Leeds should be seeing the services that accommodates the most passengers and XC with passengers taken away on to HS2 is probably no longer as significant as it is today. At worst it'll be akin to the Cardiff-Manchester TfW service.

In anything, it'll go the other way; a 2tph Birmingham "commuter" or inter-urban service on a similar axis for intermediate links:

-2tph Manchester-Stockport-Macc-Stoke-Stafford-Wolves-Brum-Coventry-Leamington-Oxford (e.g. serving places like Congleton more frequently, freed of long distance demand)
-2tph Bristol-Cheltenham-Brum-Tamworth-Burton-Derby

Or something like that

 

[Purple Orange]

In anything, it'll go the other way; a 2tph Birmingham "commuter" or inter-urban service on a similar axis for intermediate links:

-2tph Manchester-Stockport-Macc-Stoke-Stafford-Wolves-Brum-Coventry-Leamington-Oxford (e.g. serving places like Congleton more frequently, freed of long distance demand)
-2tph Bristol-Cheltenham-Brum-Tamworth-Burton-Derby

Or something like that

I would say 1 tph. The Stafford, Stoke, Macc, Stockport angle will also be served by a London WCML service and for Macc and Stockport (Stoke to a smaller degree), a northern service works very well. Wolves doesnt need 2 tph to Manc, but it would want a more frequent stopping service to Brum.

 

[The Planner]

I would say 1 tph. The Stafford, Stoke, Macc, Stockport angle will also be served by a London WCML service and for Macc and Stockport (Stoke to a smaller degree), a northern service works very well. Wolves doesnt need 2 tph to Manc, but it would want a more frequent stopping service to Brum.

We have done this one before though. Wolves to New St has 2tph all stations now. You can only go skip stop without reducing the capacity for faster trains.

 

[Purple Orange]

We have done this one before though. Wolves to New St has 2tph all stations now. You can only go skip stop without reducing the capacity for faster trains.

The faster trains would be getting reduced anyway.

 

[The Planner]

The faster trains would be getting reduced anyway.

Not to the extent of being able to having an increase in all stations.

 

[Bald Rick]

The faster trains would be getting reduced anyway.

They won’t be, though.

 

[Purple Orange]

They won’t be, though.

Of course they will. 9 fasts from Euston are being reduced to four, with more stops.

 

[The Planner]

Of course they will. 9 fasts from Euston are being reduced to four, with more stops.

I thought we were discussing Wolves New St?

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course they will. 9 fasts from Euston are being reduced to four, with more stops.

I thought we were discussing Wolves New St?

I certainly was.

 

[BrianW]

I think that's almost totally opposite to what the post you quoted is suggesting. XC already calls at most of the major stops on the routes it serves, so there's not much scope to add more. Where would you add stops in a Manchester-Bournemouth for example, it already stops just about anywhere of significance?

I suspect the main change to XC will be terminating the classic route trains at York, assuming HS2 has some kind of NE-SW service via Manchester, a truncated Eastern leg or whatever. There isn't capacity to run everything on to Newcastle.

I imagine there will be a large-scale 'review' as HS services build up and people see how best to make their journeys taking account of price, frequency, comfort, changes etc- all the 'usual' considerations.

I guess you could call it Wormwood Scrubs if you really wanted something a bit more known...

There was a thread on this a while back- I recall offering a number of possible names https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/hs2-old-oak-common-station-what-should-it-be-called.212880/

 

[Purple Orange]

I certainly was.

Yes, my confusion. The phase 1a business case has 2 Avanti WC services heading from Brum to Wolves.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, my confusion. The phase 1a business case has 2 Avanti WC services heading from Brum to Wolves.

What's Phase 1a?

There's Phase 1, Phase 2a, but not Phase 1a.

 

[Purple Orange]

What's Phase 1a?

There's Phase 1, Phase 2a, but not Phase 1a.

Yes phase 1. Having a mare here!

 

[Falcon1200]

The post of mine you quoted strongly suggests there will be little if any difference.

My reply was based on not being aware that Euston/Glasgow HS2 services would call at Birmingham Interchange, JamesT clarified that for me. (Although it may still depend on connectional times and convenience !)

 

[Irascible]

And that is why the current Cross Country network will be obsolete once HS2 is up and running. Some of the network may remain, but a XC network that accommodates more stops than it does today will not compete. Perhaps there wilm still be a direct Manchester-Bournemouth, but it will be slower than it is today.

Er, let's not forget XC provides half the service in the SW. Aside from that, Exeter to Paddington is 2h10 on the fast ones, Exeter-New St is around 2h30, so going via OOC is complete non-starter for the west side of the NE-SW service. Is the idea to run Plymouth-Birmingham & get everyone changing to something ex-OOC there?

Not that it's *that* relevant to the futher SW, anything really north we'd fly to.

 

[PTR 444]

Er, let's not forget XC provides half the service in the SW. Aside from that, Exeter to Paddington is 2h10 on the fast ones, Exeter-New St is around 2h30, so going via OOC is complete non-starter for the west side of the NE-SW service. Is the idea to run Plymouth-Birmingham & get everyone changing to something ex-OOC there?

Not that it's *that* relevant to the futher SW, anything really north we'd fly to.

How many people actually travel from Exeter to Birmingham and north on a regular basis? If it’s penny loads, I’d argue all that’s needed post-HS2 is a once-per-day direct train for those who don’t like changing. Intermediate demand can be covered by Exeter - Bristol and Bristol - Derby semi-fasts.

 

[Irascible]

Exeter was just an example location to check journey times. I've no idea how many people from west of Taunton want to go to or past Birmingham, I don't go up there - I can say that an XC service south of Bristol is usually rammed, but that might be people going to Bristol too. ORR figures say just under 2m journeys for 2019-2020 for SW<->West Midlands, 660k to the North West. For scale, the same table gives 2.1m for Wales<->London.

Surely there is no serious suggestion to send people most of the way across the country horizontally so they can then go vertically?

 

[JamesT]

Exeter was just an example location to check journey times. I've no idea how many people from west of Taunton want to go to or past Birmingham, I don't go up there - I can say that an XC service south of Bristol is usually rammed, but that might be people going to Bristol too. ORR figures say just under 2m journeys for 2019-2020 for SW<->West Midlands, 660k to the North West. For scale, the same table gives 2.1m for Wales<->London.

Surely there is no serious suggestion to send people most of the way across the country horizontally so they can then go vertically?

If you're going sufficiently far in the vertical direction, then jumping on a train that does that several times faster than the classic trains is going to be faster. HS2 should also have lots of capacity on Day 1 at least that there would be the a good reason to encourage people onto those services and alleviate crowding on the classics.

In some ways this ends up inverting the usual direction people suggest XC should take. That is, currently it's seen that XC's priority is to provide capacity on its 'core' network for semi-fast regional/long-distance services. Whereas post-HS2 XC would become more useful on the outskirts of its network, acting as a feeder into HS2 services at the nearest point. (It would also do the same within the core network, but some of the pressure on capacity there would have been alleviated by passengers transferring to HS2).

 

[edwin_m]

Taunton to Paddington is about 1hr45, so OOC will be around 1hr40.

OOC to Curzon Street will be 38min, so Taunton to Curzon Street via OOC is roundly 2hr20min plus connection time.

Taunton to New Street is a shade over 2hr on a direct train.

So it is clear that a routeing via HS2 and OOC won't be time-competitive for Taunton-Birmingham journeys. The same applies for all journeys to/from west of Taunton.

Going beyond Birmingham, the routeing via OOC is only competitive for destinations reached more quickly by HS2 if the connection time New Street to Curzon Street is less than 20min longer than the connection time at OOC. I think this is only likely to be the case if the timetables misalign badly or there is no quick means of getting between the two Birmingham stations.

There's also the option of routeing via Birmingham Interchange, but that won't be a very quick connection either (ride on a peoplemover).

 

[Irascible]

If you're going sufficiently far in the vertical direction, then jumping on a train that does that several times faster than the classic trains is going to be faster. HS2 should also have lots of capacity on Day 1 at least that there would be the a good reason to encourage people onto those services and alleviate crowding on the classics.

In some ways this ends up inverting the usual direction people suggest XC should take. That is, currently it's seen that XC's priority is to provide capacity on its 'core' network for semi-fast regional/long-distance services. Whereas post-HS2 XC would become more useful on the outskirts of its network, acting as a feeder into HS2 services at the nearest point. (It would also do the same within the core network, but some of the pressure on capacity there would have been alleviated by passengers transferring to HS2).

I appreciate sending people out of the way to get somewhere faster overall, but in this case it'd be literally 90 degrees out of the way - and slower. If XC stops serving the SW we'll just start flying more rather than going to OOC - Exeter to Manchester is 1h20m flight time & competitive on current price - and it's literally 5 mins and £40 more to Glasgow. Newquay-Manchester is even cheaper ( basically because Exeter was Flybe, so now it's being catered for by a Scottish airline & a Guernsey one - there's plenty of room for more flights ). It'd be horribly ironic if a fancy new railway line increased domestic air travel...