Could Northern run electric stock from Newcastle-Morpeth?

[Esker-pades]

Currently, Northern run MetroCentre to Morpeth services with Pacers and similarly slow DMUs running under the wires for most of the journey.
Given that quite a lot of electric rolling stock is due to be replaced soon, could Northern pick up a small fleet of them and run them from Newcastle to Morpeth and Chathill (possibly even extending Chathill services to Berwick)?
As I see it, the benefits of using longer and faster, electric trains outweigh the cost of having to change in order to get to MetroCentre. Thoughts?

 

[sash5000]

The franchise requirements include the requirement for through trains from Morpeth to the Metro Centre, so those would have to be relaxed first or the line electrified.

 

[daikilo]

or a 769, if you could find sensible diagrams to slot into, which could be a challenge!

 

[DanNCL]

Most Morpeth services now run through to Carlisle (albeit using a different head code beyond Newcastle), so would be quite difficult to shift over to EMUs unless the service was split. The Morpeth turnback siding isn't electrified either, so for EMUs to run the service that'd need to be electrified, or everything would need to work up to Chathill/Berwick/Edinburgh

EMUs operating the Morpeth stoppers is something I'd like to see happen, but unfortunately I can't see it happening any time soon.

 

[HumberSprinter]

Are the current units on the line mostly class 142s or class 156, or something else? (I'm going to Morpeth for first time this weekend).

 

[Esker-pades]

Are the current units on the line mostly class 142s or class 156, or something else? (I'm going to Morpeth for first time this weekend).

They are. 142s or 156s.

 

[HumberSprinter]

Thanks Felix and Dan.

 

[DanNCL]

Are the current units on the line mostly class 142s or class 156, or something else? (I'm going to Morpeth for first time this weekend).

Mostly 156s, with a small number of services worked by 142s.

 

[gordonthemoron]

769s would be ideal

 

[61653 HTAFC]

769s would be ideal

If they ever actually work, that is.

 

[gordonthemoron]

If they ever actually work, that is.

there is that

 

[Class 170101]

I have suggested Class 319s previously as a means of alleviating the DMU crisis on Northern along with a service split at Newcastle.

 

[danielnez1]

In a perfect world the Tyne Valley line would have been electrified by now. It would have been handy as it would also allow for electric East Coast and West Coast diversions too.

 

[Jonny]

Much as I would dearly love it, the normal turnback is as ECS on a short distance on the non-electrified (normally freight only) Blyth and Tyne. Also, there is only a single bay platform available at the east (northbound) end of Newcastle station that is often occupied so anything relying on it would be particularly susceptible to disruption.

Although something might have to happen at Newcastle, as platform 8 (with the current signalling arrangements) is too short for anything on bogies with 2 cars from the west (southbound/Carlisle-bound end).
Edit: A 2-car pacer will fit. But that isn't on bogies.

 

[alangla]

The best chance would be if the often mooted stations in East Lothian & the eastern Borders ever happen - the logical thing then would be to merge the Chathill & Morpeth services into an Edinburgh - Newcastle stopper calling everywhere south of Drem.

 

[tbtc]

Much as I would dearly love it, the normal turnback is as ECS on a short distance on the non-electrified (normally freight only) Blyth and Tyne

One of the daftest bits of BR-era penny-pinching?

As we've see with other upgrades, you either do a job properly/ fully at the time or you wait a generation or two until you are allowed the funds to fill in gaps that weren't addressed when you made other other improvements (e.g. it took a long time from wiring the WCML to wiring the short section from Stoke to Crewe)

The best chance would be if the often mooted stations in East Lothian & the eastern Borders ever happen - the logical thing then would be to merge the Chathill & Morpeth services into an Edinburgh - Newcastle stopper calling everywhere south of Drem.

Sounds good, but it currently takes seventy minutes to do the forty six miles from Chathill to Newcastle on the existing stopper, (07:10 - 08:20) compared to around half an hour on a non-stop Long Distance High Speed (LDHS) service (passing through Chathill en route from Edinburgh etc).

I accept that an EMU should run slightly faster than the forty miles per hour average speed of the Chathill - Newcastle DMU but even any Chathill - Newcastle service is going to have to be very carefully timed to get a path that doesn't disrupt the existing LDHS services. Extending that 100mph EMU to stop at Drem/ Dunbar/ Berwick is going to be even more awkward, without adding in the villages of Reston etc (and cramming it into the congested line through Mussleburgh).

I'm sympathetic to the problem of poor local services in Northumberland (e.g. there's only one arrival at Morpeth from Alnmouth in over twelve hours between 06:38 and 16:48 - the 12:57 - that's little use for local travel) - but I don't think that running a local train from Edinburgh to Newcastle with a dozen intermediate stops is going to be feasible any time soon (without building loads more passing loops, insisting that Reston etc are built as four track stations, solving the problem of the flat crossing at Dunbar...).

 

[InOban]

The flat crossing at Dunbar will be solved within two years. A second, northbound platform is being built on the main line.

But I agree with everything else. The ECML electrification was built down to a price, otherwise it wouldn't have happened at all.

 

[swt_passenger]

...even any Chathill - Newcastle service is going to have to be very carefully timed to get a path that doesn't disrupt the existing LDHS services. Extending that 100mph EMU to stop at Drem/ Dunbar/ Berwick is going to be even more awkward, without adding in the villages of Reston etc (and cramming it into the congested line through Mussleburgh).

...probably almost impossible already, and gets much worse than that when all the extra services already announced, ie TPE hourly Edinburgh, LNER Edinburgh extras and First Open Access are also in place.

 

[tbtc]

The flat crossing at Dunbar will be solved within two years. A second, northbound platform is being built on the main line.

But I agree with everything else. The ECML electrification was built down to a price, otherwise it wouldn't have happened at all.

Cheers.

Without trying to turn this into another "nationalisation" debate, the ECML electrification could have been done a little better (for just a few dollars more we could have had electrification to the Metro Centre/ Sunderland/ tiny spur at Morpeth...)

...probably almost impossible already, and gets much worse than that when all the extra services already announced, ie TPE hourly Edinburgh, LNER Edinburgh extras and First Open Access are also in place.

True!

I can see why people like the idea of an all-stops service, I can see why some people may want a regular service for stations like Chathil, I can definitely see that the current timetable is little use for regular travel between East Lothian - Berwick - Alnmouth - Morpeth (given how random the intermediate stopping pattern is on the LDHS services from Edinburgh to Newcastle), but any stopper is probably going to take over a couple of hours to provide the end-to-end journey that LDHS can do in ninety minutes. No space for such a service (which is why I'm underwhelmed by the plans to build stations at more villages - we are just creating more stations that'll be awkward to serve).

As for Metro Centre - Morpeth... if only 769s worked....

 

[geoffk]

I can see why people like the idea of an all-stops service, I can see why some people may want a regular service for stations like Chathil, I can definitely see that the current timetable is little use for regular travel between East Lothian - Berwick - Alnmouth - Morpeth (given how random the intermediate stopping pattern is on the LDHS services from Edinburgh to Newcastle), but any stopper is probably going to take over a couple of hours to provide the end-to-end journey that LDHS can do in ninety minutes. No space for such a service (which is why I'm underwhelmed by the plans to build stations at more villages - we are just creating more stations that'll be awkward to serve).
As for Metro Centre - Morpeth... if only 769s worked....

Also a new station at Killingworth. The ORR seems fixated on open-access operations and this London - Edinburgh service proposed by First fails the "not primarily abstractive" test as it is wholly abstractive. Alnwick would have been the logical terminus of the local service from Newcastle, leaving Chathill to be served by the odd Cross-Country or TPE service.

 

[MetroCar4058]

Without trying to turn this into another "nationalisation" debate, the ECML electrification could have been done a little better (for just a few dollars more we could have had electrification to the Metro Centre/ Sunderland/ tiny spur at Morpeth...)

Electrification to Sunderland would've caused problems with the expansion of the T&W Metro in the 2000s. Its arguably better that the stopper service along that line is now a part of the local Metro network instead of being in Northerns remit. This is due to a lack of ticket integration with the Metro, thus the current arrangements are both cheaper and more accessible in terms of frequency for passengers.

 

[swt_passenger]

Alnwick would have been the logical terminus of the local service from Newcastle, leaving Chathill to be served by the odd Cross-Country or TPE service.

Easy to say with hindsight, but the Alnwick branch closed (some time after Beeching) because not enough people used it...

 

[tbtc]

Also a new station at Killingworth. The ORR seems fixated on open-access operations and this London - Edinburgh service proposed by First fails the "not primarily abstractive" test as it is wholly abstractive. Alnwick would have been the logical terminus of the local service from Newcastle, leaving Chathill to be served by the odd Cross-Country or TPE service.

The rules for Open Access seem to be a case of making-it-up-as-they-go-along... London to Blackpool/ Edinburgh/ Southampton seem to all follow existing services, albeit with a couple of different intermediate stations to look marginally different... the Southampton service was seen as "abstractive", but the Blackpool and Edinburgh services are apparently different enough to get paths agreed - makes little sense to me...

I'm not sure about XC stopping at Chathill - it was bad enough when they stopped at Dronfield and Chester-le-Street. We'd be better off closing the stations between Morpeth and Berwick (with the exception of Alnmouth) - they are too insignificant to try to accommodate on such a busy fast line.

Electrification to Sunderland would've caused problems with the expansion of the T&W Metro in the 2000s. Its arguably better that the stopper service along that line is now a part of the local Metro network instead of being in Northerns remit. This is due to a lack of ticket integration with the Metro, thus the current arrangements are both cheaper and more accessible in terms of frequency for passengers.

I'm talking about when the ECML electrification was being planned/ costed in the 1980s - Sunderland to Newcastle had four trains per hour for as long as I can remember (before the Metro came along), broadly similar number of trains to the Metro Centre - there were fairly high frequency urban services in Tyne & Wear - but apparently not worth of electrification - if they'd wired them (and that piddly little spur north of Morpeth station) then there'd have been a critical mass of electrified lines (with plenty of "expired" ex-London stock available in the short term, like the 305/308s that came to Airedale/ Wharfdale/ North Berwick due to other spurs off the ECML being done - with newer EMUs ordered later on once the improvements were seen to pay off). Spilt milk now but I'd rather have had four proper EMUs from Sunderland to Newcastle per hour than five Metros plus one Pacer.

 

[xotGD]

The rules for Open Access seem to be a case of making-it-up-as-they-go-along... London to Blackpool/ Edinburgh/ Southampton seem to all follow existing services, albeit with a couple of different intermediate stations to look marginally different... the Southampton service was seen as "abstractive", but the Blackpool and Edinburgh services are apparently different enough to get paths agreed - makes little sense to me...

I'm not sure about XC stopping at Chathill - it was bad enough when they stopped at Dronfield and Chester-le-Street. We'd be better off closing the stations between Morpeth and Berwick (with the exception of Alnmouth) - they are too insignificant to try to accommodate on such a busy fast line.



I'm talking about when the ECML electrification was being planned/ costed in the 1980s - Sunderland to Newcastle had four trains per hour for as long as I can remember (before the Metro came along), broadly similar number of trains to the Metro Centre - there were fairly high frequency urban services in Tyne & Wear - but apparently not worth of electrification - if they'd wired them (and that piddly little spur north of Morpeth station) then there'd have been a critical mass of electrified lines (with plenty of "expired" ex-London stock available in the short term, like the 305/308s that came to Airedale/ Wharfdale/ North Berwick due to other spurs off the ECML being done - with newer EMUs ordered later on once the improvements were seen to pay off). Spilt milk now but I'd rather have had four proper EMUs from Sunderland to Newcastle per hour than five Metros plus one Pacer.

You wouldn't have 4 emus an hour from Sunderland as one of them comes from Middlesbrough. So then you have to extend the wires down the Durham coast, and that was never likely.

 

[tbtc]

You wouldn't have 4 emus an hour from Sunderland as one of them comes from Middlesbrough. So then you have to extend the wires down the Durham coast, and that was never likely.

The point I'm trying to make is that Sunderland - Newcastle and Newcastle - Metro Centre had fairly frequent train services, compared to the frequencies at the time on services like Leeds - Ilkley and Edinburgh - North Berwick (which were both electrified as part of the ECML scheme).

But BR didn't do a proper job at the time (also with the lack of electrified spur at Morpeth), so the opportunity was lost. If you don't do these things properly in the first place then it can take a very long time before you get a second chance (if ever).

Water under the bridge now, but it's a reason why the plans discussed on this thread can't realistically happen (EMUs can't terminate at Morpeth and the other "local" lines around Newcastle weren't wired when the electrification teams were in town).

 

[Killingworth]

Also a new station at Killingworth.

Killingworth, memories, memories. A station that was closed in 1958 and where I first went to photograph moving trains. Even if the stop could be fit into timetables it might be difficult to recreate a station, especially one with parking, although there are fields to the north of the old station by White House Farm. As a park and ride it might actually work!

 

[IanXC]

I'm fairly certain it's possible to turn back in Morpeth loop which I believe is electrified...

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm fairly certain it's possible to turn back in Morpeth loop which I believe is electrified...

Yes it is wired, I remember checking the wiring was present in these and other loops in the area when we last had this discussion; that was back in March, you mentioned it in the middle of the “all 323s to Northern” thread.
Belford and Alnmouth are other locations with up and down electrified loops. No idea if they are cleared for passenger use for overtaking stoppers though. Will it be in the SA?

Noting of course, as we did before, that the Morpeth trains interwork with Carlisle services at the moment...

 

[gnolife]

I'm not sure about XC stopping at Chathill - it was bad enough when they stopped at Dronfield and Chester-le-Street. We'd be better off closing the stations between Morpeth and Berwick (with the exception of Alnmouth) - they are too insignificant to try to accommodate on such a busy fast line.

Acklington and Chathill serve practically nothing, but I feel like Pegswood and Widdrington would probably justify getting some kind of better service

 

[EveningStar]

Passenger growth north of Morpeth is going to be patchy. Alnwick is well served by Alnmouth, although getting a space in the extended car park after 8 o'clock is a lottery, so clearly a lot of people are driving some distance. My understanding as to closure of the Alnwick branch was not passenger numbers as such and more a faustian bargain to avoid building a bridge over the then proposed A1 bypass. Housing development in Pegswood and Widdrington since then must surely represent potential demand by replacing the twice daily 'rattler' with an hourly electric.

How much to extend the wires to MetroHell?

Belford and Alnmouth are other locations with up and down electrified loops.

Chevington loops as well. Been sidelined there one windy class 91 speed restricted morning to allow diesels to pass at line speed.