Could West Midlands Trains (WMT) extend their London Northwestern Railway (LNR) services to Preston?

[sd0733]

There are no plans nor have LNWR ever planned a route to Preston, LM did but north of Weaver was ruled out in the franchise bid.
The north bound extension of Crewe services will be to Manchester Airport in May now as long as some extra 350/4s have arrived. The latest plan is an 8 car on the trent with a 4 car splitting at Crewe continuing to the airport.
All the paths are agreed and the extra staff are mostly taken on at Crewe now.

 

[pt_mad]

There are no plans nor have LNWR ever planned a route to Preston, LM did but north of Weaver was ruled out in the franchise bid.
The north bound extension of Crewe services will be to Manchester Airport in May now as long as some extra 350/4s have arrived. The latest plan is an 8 car on the trent with a 4 car splitting at Crewe continuing to the airport.
All the paths are agreed and the extra staff are mostly taken on at Crewe now.

Sounds like quite a big change re Manchester Airport. Has it been announced publicly yet or is it purely insider knowledge?

 

[sd0733]

Sounds like quite a big change re Manchester Airport. Has it been announced publicly yet or is it purely insider knowledge?

Not seen it public official but its definitely a go-er

 

[pt_mad]

Not seen it public official but its definitely a go-er

Just did a search for it. Couldn't see anything directly but the WCML London Northwestern route upgrade plan pdf for 2017/18 does hint at 'direct services to Manchester Airport'. That's about the depth of it though and presumably that document could have been produced before the West Mids franchise was even awarded?

 

[sd0733]

Just did a search for it. Couldn't see anything directly but the WCML London Northwestern route upgrade plan pdf for 2017/18 does hint at 'direct services to Manchester Airport'. That's about the depth of it though and presumably that document could have been produced before the West Mids franchise was even awarded?

It was put in the Franchise bid but was rejected by DFT at the time so must be newer than that. They always intended to make change to get it authorised and they obviously have.

 

[The Planner]

Sure its May? I thought it was Dec 19 for the Airport and Im not sure it has got through sale of access rights yet.

 

[sd0733]

Sure its May? I thought it was Dec 19 for the Airport and Im not sure it has got through sale of access rights yet.

That's the plan for our route learning we've been told by senior managers. All the additional staff are in place or In training now.
The way everything else is at the moment though I wouldn't be at all surprised to see it slip to December or even next May. Plenty of spare turns for us if that's the case!

 

[paddyb6]

Can you cram another service into Airports (3?) Platforms?

 

[swt_passenger]

Can you cram another service into Airports (3?) Platforms?

Four platforms since about 2015?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why on earth do they want to serve Manchester Airport? Surely the evidence of First North Western would be that there is no demand for that to/from London whatsoever?

Liverpool Lime St would be the absolute killer - they'd give it a much wanted second London train per hour and wipe the floor with VTWC for those on a budget.

 

[tbtc]

Why on earth do they want to serve Manchester Airport? Surely the evidence of First North Western would be that there is no demand for that to/from London whatsoever?

Liverpool Lime St would be the absolute killer - they'd give it a much wanted second London train per hour and wipe the floor with VTWC for those on a budget.

Dunno (but could be because you can extend a Euston service to Manchester Airport without treading on anyone's toes whilst running to to Liverpool/ Preston etc is going to be more "abstractive", so at least extending it into Greater Manchester gets them a toe in the water without worrying about Virgin's lawyers?).

If there are enough people in Barrow/ Cleethorpes/ Cleveland etc who need regular Manchester Airport trains then why not the West Midlands and even further south?

 

[Ianno87]

Dunno (but could be because you can extend a Euston service to Manchester Airport without treading on anyone's toes whilst running to to Liverpool/ Preston etc is going to be more "abstractive", so at least extending it into Greater Manchester gets them a toe in the water without worrying about Virgin's lawyers?).

If there are enough people in Barrow/ Cleethorpes/ Cleveland etc who need regular Manchester Airport trains then why not the West Midlands and even further south?

-Winsford-Weaver is quite congested; a net extra path (and a potentially abstractive one at that) may not 'cut the cloth'.

-Might be possible if you have a long turnround at Crewe to just poke through to the Airport and back without costing an extra unit, albeit with a short turnround at the Airport. Although that would help with platforming, a quick nip in and out on top of something else, so would work 'on paper'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

-Winsford-Weaver is quite congested; a net extra path (and a potentially abstractive one at that) may not 'cut the cloth'.

-Might be possible if you have a long turnround at Crewe to just poke through to the Airport and back without costing an extra unit, albeit with a short turnround at the Airport. Although that would help with platforming, a quick nip in and out on top of something else, so would work 'on paper'.

Though a "quick nip in and out" would have an adverse effect on punctuality for what gain? I bet nobody uses it.

 

[ys123]

Why on earth do they want to serve Manchester Airport? Surely the evidence of First North Western would be that there is no demand for that to/from London whatsoever?

Liverpool Lime St would be the absolute killer - they'd give it a much wanted second London train per hour and wipe the floor with VTWC for those on a budget.

They could run a 8 carriage Class 350 splitting at Crewe, one half continuing to Manchester Airport, the other half continuing to Liverpool.
The airport could now advertise "direct trains to London" (omitting that it is quicker to change at Crewe or Manchester Piccadilly than to take this direct train)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could run a 8 carriage Class 350 splitting at Crewe, one half continuing to Manchester Airport, the other half continuing to Liverpool.

If they ever run those trains to Liverpool they will need 8 throughout, maybe even 12. I think people underestimate just how popular a service serving Liverpool at the present fare level would be.

 

[ys123]

If they ever run those trains to Liverpool they will need 8 throughout, maybe even 12. I think people underestimate just how popular a service serving Liverpool at the present fare level would be.

They could do it every 2 hrs. One hour the Airport and the other hour Liverpool. Or a 12carriage train with 8 splitting for Liverpool and 4 for the airport (Although this is far fetched as they would have to extend platforms like crazy. Not sure the airports long platforms could accept 12 carriages)

 

[paddyb6]

They could do it every 2 hrs. One hour the Airport and the other hour Liverpool. Or a 12carriage train with 8 splitting for Liverpool and 4 for the airport (Although this is far fetched as they would have to extend platforms like crazy. Not sure the airports long platforms could accept 12 carriages)

Liverpool South Parkway can only fit 5 on the Permanent Plats1-4,however LM ran 8 cars to Liv a few months ago for the giant event and the guard used SDO so cars 6,7,8 wouldn't open doors.

 

[Ianno87]

If they ever run those trains to Liverpool they will need 8 throughout, maybe even 12. I think people underestimate just how popular a service serving Liverpool at the present fare level would be.

It may be difficult to convince the ORR to authorise sale of valuable paths between Winsford and Weaver to continue essentially undercutting existing operators at the current fare level.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Liverpool South Parkway can only fit 5 on the Permanent Plats1-4,however LM ran 8 cars to Liv a few months ago for the giant event and the guard used SDO so cars 6,7,8 wouldn't open doors.

The 350s don't have per-vehicle SDO. They will have used unit deselect, so none of the second unit will have opened.

 

[Philip]

Would it not be better to look at potential direct services between the West Midlands and Wilmslow, Salford, Bolton and Chorley; also incorporating a third Manchester service, now that the Bolton route is electrified?

An hourly Preston-Chorley-Bolton-Salford-Piccadilly-Stockport-Wilmslow-Crewe-Stafford-Wolves-B'ham service using 350s would open up many new connection opportunities and would take a fair bit of pressure off the Cross Country services out of Manchester.

 

[The Planner]

Would need a lot more stock I would imagine, or lots of 8 cars going back to 4. It would be massively abstractive too as well and yet another train the Castlefield corridor doesn't need.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not be better to look at potential direct services between the West Midlands and Wilmslow, Salford, Bolton and Chorley; also incorporating a third Manchester service, now that the Bolton route is electrified?

No, because Castlefield is full!