Could West Midlands Trains (WMT) extend their London Northwestern Railway (LNR) services to Preston?

[bionic]

I've seen reference on the WMT Wikipedia page to potential future planned Birmingham - Preston services but when you click the reference for it there is no mention of Preston. I'm aware that London Midland applied to run these services in circa 2010 and were denied permission at the time so does anyone know if there is any truth in this reference to LNR/WMT running to Preston in the foreseeable future or it is just Wikipedia fake news? Thanks.

 

[Ibex]

It's not a franchise specificiation set by the DfT to run to Preston so it's highly unlikely. Presumably if TOC's want to run services that are not set out in the franchise spec then they have to apply for it as an open-access style application although I may be wrong. http://maps.dft.gov.uk/west-midlands/

The only confirmed re-routings planned on the LNR side of the franchise is the new hourly Birmingham-Crewe service via Stoke-on-Trent, and the Euston-Crewe services running directly between Stafford and Crewe avoiding Stoke, both starting in December. Anything else is speculation.

 

[nat67]

If they did run to Preston it would 4 coach and pointless. And already on the Euston-Crewe services are full most days between Euston and Rugby and further.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Why pointless? Brum, Stafford and Crewe to the north are not well served, 1 train an hour and when I've been on them well loaded.

Or is it a railway definition of pointless?

 

[Class 170101]

West Midlands Trains are not allowed to operate north of Weaver Junction to Preston by DfT instruction.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Is there a reason for that or simply the dead hand of Whitehall?

 

[pt_mad]

Believe it's due to potential revenue extraction if they did. There has to be enough potential extra business to outweigh that took from other existing services and tocs.

Andi think it's specified in the West Coast Partnership ITT that West Mids Trains will need to be left with 2 paths each way North of Crewe per hour. Which is the existing two only. And west coast bidders will be submitting their bids based on this.


That Wikipedia also said (may still do, not sure) there will be an hourly service from Northampton to Crewe via the Trent Valley. This seems to be pure speculation too with no substance. Doubt there's any source for that either.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Believe it's due to potential revenue extraction if they did. There has to be enough potential extra business to outweigh that took from other existing services and tocs.

Andi think it's specified in the West Coast Partnership ITT that West Mids Trains will need to be left with 2 paths each way North of Vrewe per hour. Which is the existing two only. And west cowest coast bidders will be submitting their bids based on this.


That Wikipedia also said (may still do, not sure) there will be an hourly service from Northampton to Crewe via the Trent Valley. This seems to be pure speculation too with no substance. Doubt there's any source for that either.

I can see there being the necessary paths on the slow line for this in the WCML Trent Valley (as there's only 1tph on these currently). On the bits from Stafford to Crewe and at Rugby it could be a problem, as both are pretty much at capacity currently.

 

[pt_mad]

There's been

I can see there being the necessary paths on the slow line for this in the WCML Trent Valley (as there's only 1tph on these currently). On the bits from Stafford to Crewe and at Rugby it could be a problem, as both are pretty much at capacity currently.

But are WMT even interested in running a second service per hour? Don't think there was anything in the DFT output about it.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A number of years ago there was a proposal put together by front-line staff for Northern to run a new Crewe to at least Lancaster service to restore the 2tph on that section that was lost under Virgin's VHF timetable in the name of speeding up the direct London trains. This was before the Great Rolling Stock Shortage really kicked in and Northern management did carry out an appraisal of the idea. Ultimately it was judged that without subsidy it wasn't worth running ie it will only happen if the DfT wants it. As mentioned upthread it is conspicuous by its absence from any franchise specification. Pre-VHF Central Trains had a one-way service in the shape of a 1651 Birmingham New Street to Preston service operated by a 350. It returned empty.

 

[Agent_Squash]

A number of years ago there was a proposal put together by front-line staff for Northern to run a new Crewe to at least Lancaster service to restore the 2tph on that section that was lost under Virgin's VHF timetable in the name of speeding up the direct London trains. This was before the Great Rolling Stock Shortage really kicked in and Northern management did carry out an appraisal of the idea. Ultimately it was judged that without subsidy it wasn't worth running ie it will only happen if the DfT wants it. As mentioned upthread it is conspicuous by its absence from any franchise specification. Pre-VHF Central Trains had a one-way service in the shape of a 1651 Birmingham New Street to Preston service operated by a 350. It returned empty.

Possible use for 350/2s once they are released from WMT?

 

[Camden]

I've seen reference on the WMT Wikipedia page to potential future planned Birmingham - Preston services but when you click the reference for it there is no mention of Preston. I'm aware that London Midland applied to run these services in circa 2010 and were denied permission at the time so does anyone know if there is any truth in this reference to LNR/WMT running to Preston in the foreseeable future or it is just Wikipedia fake news? Thanks.

Not so much fake news, more just a bit odd. This keeps cropping up time and again, and it's one thing people taking what they've heard or read at face value, which is understandable, but it's another thing when people take the time to edit Wiki to include make-believe or wishful thinking. I think in this age of disinformation Wikipedia et al is another thing that needs to be looked at (generally speaking). Anyway, I researched this a while back, here are my findings:

The last bit I can well imagine, but I think you've got your wires crossed on the rest of it somewhere.

From the RUS:

Option RL2 contained two considered possibilities relating to Preston, both of which were rejected as being non-viable:

Option JT3.1 considered, as a sensitivity, extending the diverted interurban service between London Euston and Crewe to Preston, calling at Winsford,Hartford, Acton Bridge, Warrington Bank Quay and Wigan North Western instead of to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn. This is expected to provide a low value for money business case due to the high operating costs associated with this option. This option is therefore not recommended.

The alternative of diverting one of the two existing Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street trains per hour to Preston if the London Euston to Crewe interurban service is extended to Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn was considered in option RL2.1. This option had a low value for money business case as the disbenefits to passengers travelling between Birmingham New Street and Liverpool Lime Street outweighed the benefits to passengers travelling between Birmingham New Street and Preston and is therefore not recommended.

Extension of the London Midland Crewe - Euston up to Liverpool was mooted in JT4.2 North West Package, but couldn't go ahead until the Stoke issue had been resolved. As that has now been resolved, I expect that the extension will take place at some point in the future assuming that any objections can be overcome.

Therefore, the extension of the London Euston to Crewe service to Liverpool Lime Street cannot be recommended as no value for money way has been identified to replace the connectivity at Stone station and the rest of the Stoke-on-Trent corridor. It is recommended that the Industry Timetable Working Group considers how the connectivity could be replaced on this corridor which would then enable the London Euston to Crewe service to be diverted and extended.

Source Network Rail WCML RUS July 2011.

In summary, LM never applied for Preston. They did apply to run more in to Liverpool, and it was that which got rejected.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Possible use for 350/2s once they are released from WMT?

A lot of other questions would need to be resolved first. Like additional capacity on existing services (still 5-car Voyagers on some services), pathing issues given new freight demand northwards from the Port of Liverpool, DfT interest in non-London operations now that TfN exists. And in the long-term what effect will HS2 have on patterns of demand and consequent changes to infrastructure. IMO if HS2b is built all the way to Golborne/Bamfurlong then a complete rebuild through Wigan North Western will be needed to allow 4 tracks right through to Preston. Right now an additional Birmingham-Preston service is so marginal that the displaced 350s will surely find work elsewhere.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It is all electric, there is loads of rolling stock, albeit not fast. Anyhow if it needs the DfT to pay for a service which isn't in the South-East the rolling stock isn't the issue, it simply won't happen!

In truth if the West Midlands to Scotland trains were never single five car Voyagers that would be a start.

 

[bionic]

I appreciate everyone's input on this. I won't get my hopes up then. I personally think there's a definite call for it. Journeys to the north from Stafford are quite often fiddly... Although I appreciate Stafford is not the centre of the universe and a change at Crewe is hardly a hardship.

 

[whhistle]

Although I appreciate Stafford is not the centre of the universe...

It may not be the centre of the universe but Stafford and Rugby are important being on the triangle junctions to the West Midlands.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Anything local north of Crewe is now a TfN responsibility, if they can find it on the map.
There's also the new London-Blackpool services to fit in (VT and ?GNWR).
I suppose it's possible a 3rd "Virgin" service might appear in the WCP bid.
At some point they have to address the overcrowding on the fast Glasgow services by spreading the load south of Preston.

 

[B&I]

This will never happen for so long as Virgin WC continue to have even the slightest threat to their current cosy situation chased off by the DfT

 

[pt_mad]

Anything local north of Crewe is now a TfN responsibility, if they can find it on the map.
There's also the new London-Blackpool services to fit in (VT and ?GNWR).
I suppose it's possible a 3rd "Virgin" service might appear in the WCP bid.
At some point they have to address the overcrowding on the fast Glasgow services by spreading the load south of Preston.

Suppose it's possible that West Coast Partnership bidders might propose a Preston terminator per hour or per 2 hours. Although where they'd find enough spare stock I don't know but I can't imagine it could be ruled out as impossible.


I would genuinely imagine that the next steps for LNR will be something like 1. December tinetable change, which will see the end of the Trent Valley service going via Stone, and it's been speculated may well see one of the Liverpools starting and terminating at Birmingham International. The other Liverpool possibly being joined to a London Northampton Birmingham service. And the new Birmingham Stone Crewe service which it's speculated may be joined into a London Northampton Birmingham working.

Then there's all the combined changes at Birmingham New St including any changes to the West Midlands Railway timetable.

2. Second step is receipt, fitting, testing, training and diagraming of the new trains. With cascade away from 350/2 once they start being delivered.

That is more than enough to be dealing with for a start off without new routes before they have the new trains.

3. Considering where HS2 fits in to future timetabling including allowing for works at Euston over the next years.

 

[xtradj]

I’m sure not so many years ago that LM used to run Preston to Birmingham?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I’m sure not so many years ago that LM used to run Preston to Birmingham?

Please see the last part of (my) post #10.

 

[paddyb6]

Anyone know when.... the LNWR London --> Preston trains will commence?

 

[matt]

I wasn't aware that they would be any services to Preston

 

[Ianno87]

Are you thinking about the *G*NWR (Alliance Rail) Open Access Euston-Blackpool services?

 

[cle]

There were plans to send one of the Birmingham - Liverpool trains up to Preston. And send the London Trent Valley to Liverpool. Or vice versa. I think it was killed.

There is definitely scope for an electric slower service up the WCML - perhaps Stoke to Blackpool via Crewe and Preston could be interesting - to mop up some local demand and provide good connections to London and Scotland.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Are you thinking about the *G*NWR (Alliance Rail) Open Access Euston-Blackpool services?

No. I think he is referring to the planned extension of Crewe-London services (one via Stoke and Brum and the other via Stafford and Trent Valleys) with one going to Liverpool and the other to Preston. I think it was December 2019.

 

[swt_passenger]

A thread here in May 2018 thought that Prestons were definitely not happening, with nothing in the franchise spec:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...london-northwestern-trains-to-preston.163833/

 

[DarloRich]

Anyone know when.... the LNWR London --> Preston trains will commence?

I don't recall seeing such a service in the franchise documents. It was an aspiration on London Midland at one time but i think it died a death.

 

[pt_mad]

It's been said by numerous posters that LNR are only allowed to run two trains an hour North of Crewe, and that they have to take Weaver Junction and go off to Liverpool. And then the two an hour in the other direction.

The posters reported that it was in the franchise invitation that no trains from the franchise could run north of Crewe other than the 4 Liverpool paths (2 there and 2 from) and nothing could go North on the WCML past Weaver Junction (The Liverpool turn off).

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Removed from Wikipedia from both the WMT page and Crewe railway station page.