Cross Country Routes that never existed, but theoretically could have

[dk1]

I can see why it would be a long trip that might make it undesirable, but I can't see what would make it impossible to go Leeds - Selby - Hull - Selby - York.

It's one of those places that really ought to be on the XC network, but I guess you'd need to figure out what to get rid of in order to do so.

The Newcastle-Reading services operate via Doncaster.

 

[A S Leib]

It's one of those places that really ought to be on the XC network, but I guess you'd need to figure out what to get rid of in order to do so.

An idea I've had in the past is having an hourly CrossCountry service starting / terminating at Leeds to give Leeds passengers more capacity without it being taken by York and Newcastle to Sheffield and south travellers; extending that to Hull probably wouldn't take up all of the space for those joining at Leeds. The problem is that I don't think there's enough space between Leeds and Birmingham (Bristol Parkway or anywhere else it might be useful) to currently run such a service.

 

[Zomboid]

The Newcastle-Reading services operate via Doncaster

Serve more places then and run Doncaster - Goole - Hull - Selby - York.

 

[dk1]

Serve more places then and run Doncaster - Goole - Hull - Selby - York.

Crikey, whatever time would it get to York and what would be the point? Selby punters would change at Donny.

 

[Zomboid]

An idea I've had in the past is having an hourly CrossCountry service starting / terminating at Leeds to give Leeds passengers more capacity without it being taken by York and Newcastle to Sheffield and south travellers; extending that to Hull probably wouldn't take up all of the space for those joining at Leeds. The problem is that I don't think there's enough space between Leeds and Birmingham (Bristol Parkway or anywhere else it might be useful) to currently run such a service.

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

 

[A S Leib]

Serve more places then and run Doncaster - Goole - Hull - Selby - York.

That effectively means Doncaster to York would be 1 tph when that's a more popular flow than anywhere from Hull except Leeds, London and Beverley.

 

[Andyjs247]

A summer dated Hull-Paignton ran for many years out on Friday night back on Saturday.

The daily Bournemouth-York and vice versa via the Great Central ran through to/from Newcastle in summer.

There was a Paddington-Hull for a while in the late 80s which ran via Birmingham and Doncaster.

Bristol (or Exeter/Plymouth) - Liverpool via Birmingham and Crewe.

Penzance to Liverpool was a regular route in the 70s and 80s also. Would often be a Class 50

 

[Zomboid]

Crikey, whatever time would it get to York and what would be the point? Selby punters would change at Donny.

Those probably aren't the people who would use it.
It'd really be two different services, Reading - Birmingham - Hull and Hull - York - Newcastle (- Edinburgh?). The second of which would be more of a TPE undertaking.

 

[dk1]

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

Back in the day when Regional Railways where all about joining up routes, I never understood why the Hull-Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Piccadilly-Cardiff Central services didn’t amalgamate. Maybe times at Piccadilly couldn’t be matched or they just didn’t want to inherit and delays on the Marches onto the Trans-Pennine network.

Those probably aren't the people who would use it.
It'd really be two different services, Reading - Birmingham - Hull and Hull - York - Newcastle (- Edinburgh?). The second of which would be more of a TPE undertaking.

The latter would though be a complete waste of a Voyager. The route is already covered by Northern and no paths exist between York & Newcastle.

 

[Zomboid]

That effectively means Doncaster to York would be 1 tph when that's a more popular flow than anywhere from Hull except Leeds, London and Beverley.

I mean, I fully accept that it's an unworkable crayon suggestion, but Hull - Sheffield - Birmingham is a route that really should exist in some form.

 

[JonathanH]

I mean, I fully accept that it's an unworkable crayon suggestion, but Hull - Sheffield - Birmingham is a route that really should exist in some form.

Hull to Doncaster is one of those routes like Liverpool to Crewe where the calling points aren't really 'Intercity' places but you need a quick regional service. Hull to Sheffield has a regional service, which provides connections for Birmingham. The need is to keep those connections as good as possible.

 

[Magdalia]

There was a Paddington-Hull for a while in the late 80s which ran via Birmingham and Doncaster.

This started in 1984 and also has a Leeds portion. The return working went to Brighton.

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

In the same timetable there was also a Leeds/Hull to Cardiff and return.

Penzance to Liverpool was a regular route in the 70s and 80s also.

This was the descendant of a long standing GWR train that ran Plymouth-Liverpool via Hereford

 

[Topological]

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

Since this is speculative, tag it onto Cardiff to Nottingham with reversal at Nottingham.

 

[JRT]

Leeds to Cambridge is one sometimes considered, but it is obvious why the trains go through to London instead of 'turning off' in the way suggested.

You do wonder whether if there wasn't an avoiding route via the Trent Valley and all trains went through Birmingham whether there would be CrossCountry trains from Manchester to destinations beyond Birmingham.

Mid 1980s I did catch a train from Norwich to Leeds (via East Coast) but it was an "extra" that I found in the timetable supplement

I had that as an idea for an open access operation.

There was during the 1980s a Bradford Interchange to Bournemouth train via Greetland curve, Bradley curve, Penistone and Barnsley (before these routes had a regular service).

I have thought a Bradford – Birmingham New Street via Stockport service (via Denton to eliminate congestion) would be useful

 

[daodao]

I have thought a Bradford – Birmingham New Street via Stockport service (via Denton to eliminate congestion) would be useful

One could operate an hourly service Bradford-Leeds-Birmingham-Reading. Historically, there used to be direct trains from Bradford to Birmingham. I would run another hourly service Edinburgh-Doncaster-Birmingham-Bristol-Plymouth, bypassing Leeds and thus accelerating through journeys by 20-25 minutes.

 

[Indigo Soup]

It's firmly in the what-if territory, but I find the idea of an interworked Midland Cross-Country service with a hub at Derby quite interesting. You'd have 4tph on each of the London, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham legs divided between the various routes:

• 2tph London-Nottingham, avoiding Derby entirely
• 2tph London-Manchester via Derby & the Bakewell route
• 2tph London-Leeds via Sheffield
• 2tph Leeds-Birmingham
  • 1tph to Oxford & Southampton
  • 1tph to Bristol, Exeter & Plymouth
• 2tph Manchester-Birmingham
  • 1tph to Oxford & Southampton
  • 1tph to Bristol, Exeter & Plymouth

I'm not sure it brings an awful lot to the party compared to the service we actually have, but it's fun to imagine!

 

[Magdalia]

There was during the 1980s a Bradford Interchange to Bournemouth train via Greetland curve, Bradley curve, Penistone and Barnsley (before these routes had a regular service).

In the late 1950s/early 1960s Bradford and Bournemouth were linked via 2 different routes.

Midland trains to/from Forster Square ran via Derby to Bath then the Somerset and Dorset to Poole and Bournemouth West.

Great Central trains ran to/from Exchange via Huddersfield, Penistone, Sheffield Victoria and Oxford to Bournemouth Central and Poole.

The 2 trains merged in 1963, when the Somerset and Dorset lost its through traffic, and have a complicated history after that. The 1980s train, which was a portion attached to another train at Sheffield, was its last remnant.

 

[quantinghome]

A logical approach would be to check what pairs of large urban areas have no direct service connecting them and work up from there.

 

[The Ham]

A logical approach would be to check what pairs of large urban areas have no direct service connecting them and work up from there.

Given Liverpool is at number 6, I'd guess that's likely to be one end of a few

 

[AndrewE]

Given Liverpool is at number 6, I'd guess that's likely to be one end of a few

Given the prejudice against serving the city, I wouldn't hold your breath....

 

[A S Leib]

As well as Liverpool, I'd guess there's a lot of potential pairs involving Warrington (beyond the currently-served Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, London, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough, Norwich, Edinburgh, Glasgow) and St. Helens (Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glasgow and I'd guess Manchester at some point).

 

[trainswitheddy]

LD&ECR would probably be a good one. Meant to run west coast to east coast but only ever ran from Chesterfield to Derbyshire, can get a route plan of the unbuilt eastern leg if it's of interest

 

[quantinghome]

OK, so I got bored, and...



Y = direct service at least 2 hourly - 1 point
ish = limited direct service - 1/2 point
N = no direct service

Settlements chosen are GB urban areas above 300,000, from this list. Yes, I've left Birkenhead in for no particular reason. And I've split out Leeds and Bradford, and Southampton and Portsmouth, based on the well-established and completely scientific criterion of Having A Reasonably Large Football Club.

Ignoring locations that don't have a well connected intercity station nearby, or a massive city in between it and the rest of the country, I'd say that the priorities should be Leicester, Teesside, Swansea, Hull.

Reading gets the prize for punching above its weight.

Liverpool isn't actually that badly connected.

 

[A S Leib]

In Teesside's case, I think giving Darlington its pre-Covid service of 3 tph to Leeds, 2 tph to Manchester, Sheffield, Derby and Birmingham, hourly to Reading and semi-hourly to Southampton would probably fulfil demand between those places (and probably be enough for Teesside to southeast Dorset and Portsmouth given the distance between them, unless there's capacity to extend Reading / Southampton services further in summer weekends).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

OK, so I got bored, and...

View attachment 178802

Y = direct service at least 2 hourly - 1 point
ish = limited direct service - 1/2 point
N = no direct service

Settlements chosen are GB urban areas above 300,000, from this list. Yes, I've left Birkenhead in for no particular reason. And I've split out Leeds and Bradford, and Southampton and Portsmouth, based on the well-established and completely scientific criterion of Having A Reasonably Large Football Club.

Ignoring locations that don't have a well connected intercity station nearby, or a massive city in between it and the rest of the country, I'd say that the priorities should be Leicester, Teesside, Swansea, Hull.

Reading gets the prize for punching above its weight.

Liverpool isn't actually that badly connected.

Could you remake that but maybe make the N’s highlighted so they’re clearer? Great work by the way

 

[Zomboid]

Ignoring locations that don't have a well connected intercity station nearby, or a massive city in between it and the rest of the country, I'd say that the priorities should be Leicester, Teesside, Swansea, Hull

Shame there's not really an obvious route that links them all, really.

I guess Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield - Leicester - Nuneaton - Birmingham - Bristol (Parkway) - Swansea might be workable and could avoid being laughed out of the DfT as an open access proposal. Not sure how to get through Birmingham though, New St is probably going to be challenging, and there junctions don't work for getting to Moor St.

 

[BranstonJnc]

An idea I've had in the past is having an hourly CrossCountry service starting / terminating at Leeds to give Leeds passengers more capacity without it being taken by York and Newcastle to Sheffield and south travellers; extending that to Hull probably wouldn't take up all of the space for those joining at Leeds. The problem is that I don't think there's enough space between Leeds and Birmingham (Bristol Parkway or anywhere else it might be useful) to currently run such a service.

Running the Edinburgh services via Doncaster in order to specifically release capacity for Leeds probably has some merit, but what really needs to happen is certain services having guaranteed longer trains.

There are 34 x 4 car 220s. This is perfectly reasonable, and with a good refurb, they will be fine.

There are 40 x 5 car 221s, and 4 x 4 car 221s. If someone had a bit of sense, we could move to having 20 x 6 car 221s, and 24 x 4 car 221s, which would really help as it would allow you to run some better-length single units, and also have loads of extra 4 car units sprinting about in 8 car formation, which is probably the longest they should be (9 cars don't seem to be accommodated at some stations).

Re-create 7 x 9 car 222s (this should wind people up), and then have a remaining 20 x 4 car 222s. When you consider that the 9 car 222s could be put onto a homogenous route, with First Class of a suitable size but perhaps the reintroduction of a proper, functioning buffet / cafe, you would be able to yield manage people accordingly. The 4 car units, e.g. 220/221/222 could have a limited First Class, and be refurbed more to suit things like trolley service.

With the full fleet in operation, you would be able to have a good switch around of the services.

Put Cardiff onto the 'Voyager' network full-time, and run those services as 6 cars onto the via-Doncaster route. As TPE and LNER need capacity north of York, you could divert this service to Hull via Goole or Selby, in line with the aspirations for a South TransPennine Hull; Hull being still served by express traffic over Huddersfield / Leeds, but this would be the 'new' Sheffield to Hull service.

Amend the Bristol to go to Nottingham, again probably using 6 cars. This would mean stations like Worcestershire Parkway actually get the sensible destination of Bristol for the wider South West, instead of needing a double change at Cheltenham. Amend the stopping pattern north of Birmingham so this one is only Tamworth, Burton, Derby and round to Notts.

Use the 9 car 222s on the Bournemouth to Manchester, so traffic to Birmingham Airport is on the longest possible trains. Diagram other 8 car operation in accordingly. You would have to have a timetable re-jig because of interworking at Piccadilly, but this would actually be a good thing as a delay in Bristol won't cancel a Bournemouth service.

Then overlay the second service (I'm sure the old pattern pre-Covid meant there were extra Southampton trains) with a Southampton / Reading to Liverpool, either via Solihull or Coventry (but if the latter, add in a Solihull stop, it's overdue), so that there is a 'proper' express to Liverpool every hour. This might have to stop at Hartford but that's no bad thing.

This would leave you using lovely 8 car 350s on something like a Birmingham International - Liverpool (every hour) and Manchester via Stoke / Macclesfield (every hour) to pick up the slack. I can't imagine people would be aggrieved at such a thing, especially if doing so would allow Congleton and Stone to go onto the route map.

I can already foresee some of the comments on this. "You can't get from Bristol to Manchester" even though quite frankly when you look at Birmingham's rail map, it makes far more sense for all South West traffic to go straight past University and up to the Derby lines, much the same by reply stuff from the South Coast just going to the North West. It also makes sense from a crew perspective - Manchester crew go to Reading, Derby crew go to Bristol. Having all these extra crew changes at New Street isn't helpful, just run 30-minutely paths across Birmingham and ask people to change.

 

[quantinghome]

In Teesside's case, I think giving Darlington its pre-Covid service of 3 tph to Leeds, 2 tph to Manchester, Sheffield, Derby and Birmingham, hourly to Reading and semi-hourly to Southampton would probably fulfil demand between those places (and probably be enough for Teesside to southeast Dorset and Portsmouth given the distance between them, unless there's capacity to extend Reading / Southampton services further in summer weekends).

It's a fair distance from Teesside to Darlington. Is Nottingham is served well enough by the train service at Derby, or Portsmouth served by Southampton?

 

[A S Leib]

It's a fair distance from Teesside to Darlington. Is Nottingham is served well enough by the train service at Derby, or Portsmouth served by Southampton?

In some cases I'd argue that neither Nottingham nor Derby, or Portsmouth nor Southampton are served well enough (such as Leeds, Manchester and York in the former case and Brighton and Bristol in the latter given the relative distances).

I'd say that all three cases would ideally have a more frequent / reliable service between them, with the focus then being on running services between hubs; if Middlesbrough to Darlington had 4 tph as a relatively self-contained service, it should be more than sufficient for less frequent destinations from Teesside such as Bristol and Plymouth. Overall I'd prioritise more frequent services between larger destinations rather than having direct services between every pair of towns of a third of a million people hundreds of miles apart.

I think alternating destinations might make sense in some cases, but that still wouldn't satisfy everybody because of people unwilling to leave an hour earlier to avoid a change at Northallerton or Chesterfield or Winchester.

 

[Severnia333]

OK, so I got bored, and...

View attachment 178802

Y = direct service at least 2 hourly - 1 point
ish = limited direct service - 1/2 point
N = no direct service

Settlements chosen are GB urban areas above 300,000, from this list. Yes, I've left Birkenhead in for no particular reason. And I've split out Leeds and Bradford, and Southampton and Portsmouth, based on the well-established and completely scientific criterion of Having A Reasonably Large Football Club.

Ignoring locations that don't have a well connected intercity station nearby, or a massive city in between it and the rest of the country, I'd say that the priorities should be Leicester, Teesside, Swansea, Hull.

Reading gets the prize for punching above its weight.

Liverpool isn't actually that badly connected.

Glasgow surprisingly low, for somewhere with such good infrastructure and some CC services.