Cross Country Routes that never existed, but theoretically could have

[dk1]

I can see why it would be a long trip that might make it undesirable, but I can't see what would make it impossible to go Leeds - Selby - Hull - Selby - York.

It's one of those places that really ought to be on the XC network, but I guess you'd need to figure out what to get rid of in order to do so.

The Newcastle-Reading services operate via Doncaster.

 

[A S Leib]

It's one of those places that really ought to be on the XC network, but I guess you'd need to figure out what to get rid of in order to do so.

An idea I've had in the past is having an hourly CrossCountry service starting / terminating at Leeds to give Leeds passengers more capacity without it being taken by York and Newcastle to Sheffield and south travellers; extending that to Hull probably wouldn't take up all of the space for those joining at Leeds. The problem is that I don't think there's enough space between Leeds and Birmingham (Bristol Parkway or anywhere else it might be useful) to currently run such a service.

 

[Zomboid]

The Newcastle-Reading services operate via Doncaster

Serve more places then and run Doncaster - Goole - Hull - Selby - York.

 

[dk1]

Serve more places then and run Doncaster - Goole - Hull - Selby - York.

Crikey, whatever time would it get to York and what would be the point? Selby punters would change at Donny.

 

[Zomboid]

An idea I've had in the past is having an hourly CrossCountry service starting / terminating at Leeds to give Leeds passengers more capacity without it being taken by York and Newcastle to Sheffield and south travellers; extending that to Hull probably wouldn't take up all of the space for those joining at Leeds. The problem is that I don't think there's enough space between Leeds and Birmingham (Bristol Parkway or anywhere else it might be useful) to currently run such a service.

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

 

[A S Leib]

Serve more places then and run Doncaster - Goole - Hull - Selby - York.

That effectively means Doncaster to York would be 1 tph when that's a more popular flow than anywhere from Hull except Leeds, London and Beverley.

 

[Andyjs247]

A summer dated Hull-Paignton ran for many years out on Friday night back on Saturday.

The daily Bournemouth-York and vice versa via the Great Central ran through to/from Newcastle in summer.

There was a Paddington-Hull for a while in the late 80s which ran via Birmingham and Doncaster.

Bristol (or Exeter/Plymouth) - Liverpool via Birmingham and Crewe.

Penzance to Liverpool was a regular route in the 70s and 80s also. Would often be a Class 50

 

[Zomboid]

Crikey, whatever time would it get to York and what would be the point? Selby punters would change at Donny.

Those probably aren't the people who would use it.
It'd really be two different services, Reading - Birmingham - Hull and Hull - York - Newcastle (- Edinburgh?). The second of which would be more of a TPE undertaking.

 

[dk1]

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

Back in the day when Regional Railways where all about joining up routes, I never understood why the Hull-Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Piccadilly-Cardiff Central services didn’t amalgamate. Maybe times at Piccadilly couldn’t be matched or they just didn’t want to inherit and delays on the Marches onto the Trans-Pennine network.

Those probably aren't the people who would use it.
It'd really be two different services, Reading - Birmingham - Hull and Hull - York - Newcastle (- Edinburgh?). The second of which would be more of a TPE undertaking.

The latter would though be a complete waste of a Voyager. The route is already covered by Northern and no paths exist between York & Newcastle.

 

[Zomboid]

That effectively means Doncaster to York would be 1 tph when that's a more popular flow than anywhere from Hull except Leeds, London and Beverley.

I mean, I fully accept that it's an unworkable crayon suggestion, but Hull - Sheffield - Birmingham is a route that really should exist in some form.

 

[JonathanH]

I mean, I fully accept that it's an unworkable crayon suggestion, but Hull - Sheffield - Birmingham is a route that really should exist in some form.

Hull to Doncaster is one of those routes like Liverpool to Crewe where the calling points aren't really 'Intercity' places but you need a quick regional service. Hull to Sheffield has a regional service, which provides connections for Birmingham. The need is to keep those connections as good as possible.

 

[Magdalia]

There was a Paddington-Hull for a while in the late 80s which ran via Birmingham and Doncaster.

This started in 1984 and also has a Leeds portion. The return working went to Brighton.

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

In the same timetable there was also a Leeds/Hull to Cardiff and return.

Penzance to Liverpool was a regular route in the 70s and 80s also.

This was the descendant of a long standing GWR train that ran Plymouth-Liverpool via Hereford

 

[Topological]

Hull - Cardiff, though I don't know where the space to do such a thing might come from.

Since this is speculative, tag it onto Cardiff to Nottingham with reversal at Nottingham.

 

[JRT]

Leeds to Cambridge is one sometimes considered, but it is obvious why the trains go through to London instead of 'turning off' in the way suggested.

You do wonder whether if there wasn't an avoiding route via the Trent Valley and all trains went through Birmingham whether there would be CrossCountry trains from Manchester to destinations beyond Birmingham.

Mid 1980s I did catch a train from Norwich to Leeds (via East Coast) but it was an "extra" that I found in the timetable supplement

I had that as an idea for an open access operation.

There was during the 1980s a Bradford Interchange to Bournemouth train via Greetland curve, Bradley curve, Penistone and Barnsley (before these routes had a regular service).

I have thought a Bradford – Birmingham New Street via Stockport service (via Denton to eliminate congestion) would be useful

 

[daodao]

I have thought a Bradford – Birmingham New Street via Stockport service (via Denton to eliminate congestion) would be useful

One could operate an hourly service Bradford-Leeds-Birmingham-Reading. Historically, there used to be direct trains from Bradford to Birmingham. I would run another hourly service Edinburgh-Doncaster-Birmingham-Bristol-Plymouth, bypassing Leeds and thus accelerating through journeys by 20-25 minutes.

 

[Indigo Soup]

It's firmly in the what-if territory, but I find the idea of an interworked Midland Cross-Country service with a hub at Derby quite interesting. You'd have 4tph on each of the London, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham legs divided between the various routes:

• 2tph London-Nottingham, avoiding Derby entirely
• 2tph London-Manchester via Derby & the Bakewell route
• 2tph London-Leeds via Sheffield
• 2tph Leeds-Birmingham
  • 1tph to Oxford & Southampton
  • 1tph to Bristol, Exeter & Plymouth
• 2tph Manchester-Birmingham
  • 1tph to Oxford & Southampton
  • 1tph to Bristol, Exeter & Plymouth

I'm not sure it brings an awful lot to the party compared to the service we actually have, but it's fun to imagine!

 

[Magdalia]

There was during the 1980s a Bradford Interchange to Bournemouth train via Greetland curve, Bradley curve, Penistone and Barnsley (before these routes had a regular service).

In the late 1950s/early 1960s Bradford and Bournemouth were linked via 2 different routes.

Midland trains to/from Forster Square ran via Derby to Bath then the Somerset and Dorset to Poole and Bournemouth West.

Great Central trains ran to/from Exchange via Huddersfield, Penistone, Sheffield Victoria and Oxford to Bournemouth Central and Poole.

The 2 trains merged in 1963, when the Somerset and Dorset lost its through traffic, and have a complicated history after that. The 1980s train, which was a portion attached to another train at Sheffield, was its last remnant.

 

[quantinghome]

A logical approach would be to check what pairs of large urban areas have no direct service connecting them and work up from there.

 

[The Ham]

A logical approach would be to check what pairs of large urban areas have no direct service connecting them and work up from there.

Given Liverpool is at number 6, I'd guess that's likely to be one end of a few

 

[AndrewE]

Given Liverpool is at number 6, I'd guess that's likely to be one end of a few

Given the prejudice against serving the city, I wouldn't hold your breath....

 

[A S Leib]

As well as Liverpool, I'd guess there's a lot of potential pairs involving Warrington (beyond the currently-served Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, London, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough, Norwich, Edinburgh, Glasgow) and St. Helens (Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glasgow and I'd guess Manchester at some point).

 

[trainswitheddy]

LD&ECR would probably be a good one. Meant to run west coast to east coast but only ever ran from Chesterfield to Derbyshire, can get a route plan of the unbuilt eastern leg if it's of interest

 

[quantinghome]

OK, so I got bored, and...



Y = direct service at least 2 hourly - 1 point
ish = limited direct service - 1/2 point
N = no direct service

Settlements chosen are GB urban areas above 300,000, from this list. Yes, I've left Birkenhead in for no particular reason. And I've split out Leeds and Bradford, and Southampton and Portsmouth, based on the well-established and completely scientific criterion of Having A Reasonably Large Football Club.

Ignoring locations that don't have a well connected intercity station nearby, or a massive city in between it and the rest of the country, I'd say that the priorities should be Leicester, Teesside, Swansea, Hull.

Reading gets the prize for punching above its weight.

Liverpool isn't actually that badly connected.

 

[A S Leib]

In Teesside's case, I think giving Darlington its pre-Covid service of 3 tph to Leeds, 2 tph to Manchester, Sheffield, Derby and Birmingham, hourly to Reading and semi-hourly to Southampton would probably fulfil demand between those places (and probably be enough for Teesside to southeast Dorset and Portsmouth given the distance between them, unless there's capacity to extend Reading / Southampton services further in summer weekends).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

OK, so I got bored, and...

View attachment 178802

Y = direct service at least 2 hourly - 1 point
ish = limited direct service - 1/2 point
N = no direct service

Settlements chosen are GB urban areas above 300,000, from this list. Yes, I've left Birkenhead in for no particular reason. And I've split out Leeds and Bradford, and Southampton and Portsmouth, based on the well-established and completely scientific criterion of Having A Reasonably Large Football Club.

Ignoring locations that don't have a well connected intercity station nearby, or a massive city in between it and the rest of the country, I'd say that the priorities should be Leicester, Teesside, Swansea, Hull.

Reading gets the prize for punching above its weight.

Liverpool isn't actually that badly connected.

Could you remake that but maybe make the N’s highlighted so they’re clearer? Great work by the way

 

[Zomboid]

Ignoring locations that don't have a well connected intercity station nearby, or a massive city in between it and the rest of the country, I'd say that the priorities should be Leicester, Teesside, Swansea, Hull

Shame there's not really an obvious route that links them all, really.

I guess Hull - Doncaster - Sheffield - Leicester - Nuneaton - Birmingham - Bristol (Parkway) - Swansea might be workable and could avoid being laughed out of the DfT as an open access proposal. Not sure how to get through Birmingham though, New St is probably going to be challenging, and there junctions don't work for getting to Moor St.