Cross Country should abolish first class until capacity issues are addressed

[JonathanH]

Not neccesarily. As I said, it's around £20 to £30 for a journey of under 100 miles on National Express.
A rake of 5 MK4s from the SW - Birmingham - Sheffield - ECML - Edinburgh - Glasgow would encompass a lot of NatEx overnight routes, and you've usually got 50 to 60 people per coach.

So does the single Mk4 train replace all the coaches? Why?

 

[778]

A lot of people outside of the major cities don't even have the option of using coach services. I live in a fairly large town with a population of 100,000 and there is just one coach service which is the 707 Heathrow Airport - Birmingham operated by National Express. National Express used to operated other coach services through the town to Oxford and Cambridge, and the Green Line service to London was axed during covid. It is actually cheaper to go by rail than coach to Birmingham from where I live (if you use LNR).

When Cross Country take on the extra voyagers cascaded by the 805s/807s will that improve things? I am lucky to live somewhere where I don't have to rely on Cross Country services but have sympathy for those that do. I have seen how busy there trains get.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When Cross Country take on the extra voyagers cascaded by the 805s/807s will that improve things?

It will a bit - while it's just a vehicle for vehicle replacement for the lost HSTs (I think) they will be able to be diagrammed far more intensively so will bring a fair bit more capacity than the HSTs did. They could do with all of them, really, though.

 

[Topological]

You'd need two platforms if you still wanted to run the service from Bournemouth through to Birmingham, unless you wanted to cut turnaround time to the bone (5 minutes after a journey over 3 hours isn't ideal).

I think I was sending the Bournemouth out to Bristol and vice versa for the voyagers, also working on the idea that the current SW-NE axis could swap with the Bristol-Manchester if it helped to align things better. Either way, a Voyager from the south west would go back to the South East on 1tph and to the York on 1tph. From the South East then 1tph would go South West and 1tph would go to York. I was not having any voyagers terminate in New Street.

The EMU on the other hand would need to go somewhere, which is appreciably the issue here.

I do think terminating all Cross Country at York has the best chance of saving Voyagers using EMUs of all the crayonista thoughts.

 

[AlastairFraser]

So does the single Mk4 train replace all the coaches? Why?

Not all of them, but it would reduce the frequency of overnight coaches. Often there's several from Exeter/Bristol to the Midlands, plus the Midlands towards Sheffield/Leeds.

 

[JonathanH]

Not all of them, but it would reduce the frequency of overnight coaches. Often there's several from Exeter/Bristol to the Midlands, plus the Midlands towards Sheffield/Leeds.

Why do we need to reduce the frequency of coaches? Is this to try and justify more capacity on CrossCountry?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why do we need to reduce the frequency of coaches? Is this to try and justify more capacity on CrossCountry?

It's more about a need to reduce the attractiveness of domestic flights - seated overnight train services are a much more attractive proposition than a noisy coach at the mercy of traffic congestion.

 

[CBlue]

It's more about a need to reduce the attractiveness of domestic flights - seated overnight train services are a much more attractive proposition than a noisy coach at the mercy of traffic congestion.

People travel on the overnight coaches because they are very cheap. Good luck offering rail fares that match without insane levels of subsidy.

Those that fly would continue to do so because it's faster than either mode and doesn't involve travelling overnight in a seat.


What traffic congestion exists on motorways overnight even with closures for roadworks? Your have to divert or amend the rail service for overnight closures too, and good luck if you can't find a diversion that's practical....

Im also not sure where you get "noisy" from. Modern coaches are very, very quiet - probably less noisy than the creaking and squeaking of a MK4 gangway.

 

[AdamWW]

Im also not sure where you get "noisy" from. Modern coaches are very, very quiet - probably less noisy than the creaking and squeaking of a MK4 gangway.

And they turn the lights off at night!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's more about a need to reduce the attractiveness of domestic flights - seated overnight train services are a much more attractive proposition than a noisy coach at the mercy of traffic congestion.

I suspect there is near enough zero overlap between people who would fly from London to Scotland and people who would subject themselves to the unpleasant experience of a seated overnight road coach.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect there is near enough zero overlap between people who would fly from London to Scotland and people who would subject themselves to the unpleasant experience of a seated overnight road coach.

Why? You can easily get flights for about the same price as a coach ticket (£30 ish).

 

[HSTEd]

Why would the interior of a Voyager look like if you removed all the seats?
Would a 185 style large standing area be possible in one of the vehicles, to ease the capacity for comparatively short journeys?

 

[AdamWW]

Why would the interior of a Voyager look like if you removed all the seats?

I'm sure the media would love that!

 

[BrianW]

Why would the interior of a Voyager look like if you removed all the seats?
Would a 185 style large standing area be possible in one of the vehicles, to ease the capacity for comparatively short journeys?

This reminded me of the introduction of London Transport 'standee' Red Arrow buses- nearly 60 years of progress!

Road vehicle; MBA-type AEC single deck standee motor bus fleet No MBA582 registration number AML582H, 1969 | London Transport Museum

road vehicle

www.ltmuseum.co.uk

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In my experience XC 1st class is often full, it certainly doesn't cart fresh air around so I don't see the point in a general declassification.

Agreed. As a regular of first class on XC, please leave it be! There's more than enough of us willing to pay for it.

Completely agreed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? You can easily get flights for about the same price as a coach ticket (£30 ish).

OK, perhaps I worded that wrongly.

People on a budget might fly if it's cheap but are most likely to go by coach.
People not on a budget will probably fly but absolutely will not countenance an overnight coach.

 

[Starmill]

OK, perhaps I worded that wrongly.

People on a budget might fly if it's cheap but are most likely to go by coach.
People not on a budget will probably fly but absolutely will not countenance an overnight coach.

Yes. I think it shows how perverse the market is that the fastest and slowest options can cater for the budget market effectively, but the main intermediate option struggles to.

 

[AlastairFraser]

People travel on the overnight coaches because they are very cheap. Good luck offering rail fares that match without insane levels of subsidy.

Those that fly would continue to do so because it's faster than either mode and doesn't involve travelling overnight in a seat.


What traffic congestion exists on motorways overnight even with closures for roadworks? Your have to divert or amend the rail service for overnight closures too, and good luck if you can't find a diversion that's practical....

Im also not sure where you get "noisy" from. Modern coaches are very, very quiet - probably less noisy than the creaking and squeaking of a MK4 gangway.

They're not very cheap - you're looking at £40pp per direction for an overnight coach end to end.
An all seated no frills overnight train wouldn't necessarily need huge amounts of subsidy.
Traffic congestion happens as a result of the coaches usually needing to leave a large city in the early evening (where there is congestion) to travel long distances.
And, while there are overnight railway closures of course, if you use routes that are kept open most nights for freight services that can be pathed around, the likelihood is significantly reduced.

Modern coaches are noisy not because of the coach itself, more because of the passengers on them. The background noise on an Mk3/Mk4 makes it more difficult to have a phone call at least!

 

[TheGuy77]

Shouldn't first class be declassified altogether? The only reason people travel on first class is because that's where the only seats available are.

 

[Jimini]

Shouldn't first class be declassified altogether? The only reason people travel on first class is because that's where the only seats available are.

An interesting logic (and incorrect).

 

[Killingworth]

An interesting logic (and incorrect).

But not totally incorrect with XC. I've certainly gone for a Seatfrog upgrade to get a seat. I know others who do the same..

In days long gone you paid to reserve a seat on busiest services. I think the fee was £2.

 

[Jimini]

But not totally incorrect with XC. I've certainly gone for a Seatfrog upgrade to get a seat. I know others who do the same..

In days long gone you paid to reserve a seat on busiest services. I think the fee was £2.

That's a fair point -- I was typing that out on an 11-car Avanti service (usual commute), but use XC fairly regularly between Birmingham and Reading and 99% of the time use Seatfrog for that very reason on those oh so cozy four / five car trains.

 

[Meerkat]

Shouldn't first class be declassified altogether? The only reason people travel on first class is because that's where the only seats available are.

Nope, its to get more space and to get away from the 'characters' you find travelling in Standard, particularly at the weekend.