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Croydon Tram Crash

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Tim R-T-C

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Regarding the comments made by a well-known regular 'reader' of the website, I can't comprehend the sheer callousness of the remarks that he is coming up with.

They seriously need to close the comments on those pages, could be a legal issue if serious allegations are made and not deleted on their site.

Too many websites have comments sections, but make no attempt to moderate them, leading to them very quickly degenerating into fighting and slander.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Asperger's manifests itself in many ways. Offensive online trolling is one such way.

One can be both Aspie and an asshole.

But yes, it does read more that the individual cannot get his head around the fact that mistakes happen and just because it was a bad mistake doesn't mean it was a deliberate one.
 

jopsuk

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I think that chap is banned from here, and many other forums. I had a quick look and he seems to have closed his twitter account.
 

D365

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Did he ever join in here?

I was considering creating a new thread discussing aspergers in relation to train enthusiasts, if there is any interest I will do this now.
 

Robertj21a

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Did he ever join in here?

I was considering creating a new thread discussing aspergers in relation to train enthusiasts, if there is any interest I will do this now.

If you do, it might be worth including autism itself.
 

61653 HTAFC

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One can be both Aspie and an asshole.

Quite...

I think that chap is banned from here, and many other forums. I had a quick look and he seems to have closed his twitter account.

Thought I recognised the name...

Did he ever join in here?

I was considering creating a new thread discussing aspergers in relation to train enthusiasts, if there is any interest I will do this now.

I support this, as an aspie/person with ASD*.

*= Also I concur with Robertj21a . Especially as some clinicians choose not to use the term Aspergers in diagnosis, instead using Autistic Spectrum Disorder/Condition. As far as the professionals I've been involved with are concerned, they're more-or-less the same thing... not that that means much, considering the many different ways being Autistic can manifest in different people.
 

JaJaWa

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Playing out to be a rather similar incident: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/2085320/driver-23-hong-kong-tram-flip-accident-arrested-after-13

Hong Kong police investigate passenger complaint about speeding in tram accident

Source says passenger reported tram was swinging from side to side before toppling over

Police are investigating possible speeding as the cause of Thursday night’s rare tram accident after one of the passengers on board told them that it was swinging from side to side before it tumbled over, according to a source.
Experts and tram drivers said that the experience of the 23-year-old driver, who was arrested *yesterday, could also have been a factor when the tram crashed *onto its side in Central, injuring 14 people.
The driver, who joined operator Hong Kong Tramways last January, was arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving causing grievous bodily harm and later released on bail, pending an investigation. He must report back to police next month.
Firemen and police were called to the scene shortly after midnight on Thursday after the tram No 123, bound for Shek Tong Tsui, derailed and flipped onto its left side on Des Voeux Road Central, near Bank Street, outside the HSBC headquarters. It took an S-shaped bend immediately before it crashed.
A police source said a passenger had complained that the tram was going too fast for most of the journey and swinging from side to side before it crashed. This was one of the factors that led to the driver’s arrest.
The source said a speed recorder installed on board the tram was being examined by the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department, and would be passed on to police next.
Mechanical engineer and veteran traffic accident investigator Lo Kok-keung said it was common for trams to derail but in his decades-long career, he had never heard of a tram toppling over in Hong Kong.

“It looks to be speed-related,” he said, noting the slight slope on the bend. “The high forces of inertia from a [high-speed] turn could have caused it to derail and tip over. Trams are very heavy and can weigh up to 19 tonnes. The bigger the mass, the higher the centrifugal force.”
One tram driver with 20 years of experience said navigating the bend in question was not challenging but it was imperative for drivers to reduce speed before tackling it.
“There is definitely a degree of danger because unlike other vehicles, trams cannot move freely; they rely on the tracks,” he said.
“If I’m going down straight at 20km/h, I would reduce my speed by at least half or more before making a turn. Perhaps the driver did not have enough experience. It was very fortunate that no one was hurt too badly because there are usually a lot of people crossing the road there.”
The last known case of a tram overturning was back in 1983 when a concrete mixer rammed into one in Shau Kei Wan, injuring 21 people. In 1964, a speeding tram overturned and toppled over at a double-bend in Admiralty, injuring 59 and killing one.
The fact that the accident occurred at midnight – when there was less traffic and a higher speeding risk – could have also played a role. A former tram driver said most drivers at that time were on their last legs and rushing to the depot to clock out.
“It’s usually a 10-hour shift with overtime,” she said.
Hong Kong Tramways said it was fully assisting in the investigation. No problems were found during a maintenance check on the tramcar last month.
The 14 victims, including the driver, aged 23 to 64, suffered minor injuries and 11 of them were sent to hospitals for treatment. Most were discharged yesterday.
CCTV footage showed a double decker bus whizzing by at the time of the crash, but no collision was reported.
 
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edwin_m

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"It looks to be speed-related,” he said, noting the slight slope on the bend. “The high forces of inertia from a [high-speed] turn could have caused it to derail and tip over. Trams are very heavy and can weigh up to 19 tonnes. The bigger the mass, the higher the centrifugal force."

True but not relevant, as the weight of the tram that is preventing overturning will also be greater and one cancels out the other. If the position of the centre of mass is the same the overturning speed will also be the same regardless of mass, unless wind force is large enough to be significant.
 

daikilo

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True but not relevant, as the weight of the tram that is preventing overturning will also be greater and one cancels out the other. If the position of the centre of mass is the same the overturning speed will also be the same regardless of mass, unless wind force is large enough to be significant.

Just guessing, but I think that the intent of the comment was to say that the double-deck tram was not empty thus the centre of gravity (hence angular force on the wheel-rim) was different to that of an empty tram. Wether the commenter was suggesting that had the tram been empty it way not have overturned, may be why he states that they regularly have derailments. Note that the forces leading to an overturn may not be acting in the same way as those of a derailment.
 

Taunton

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Trams typically have much shallower flange profiles than mainstream rail vehicles, so must be more susceptible to leaving their tracks on curves.

I still haven't seen any reply to why the Croydon sharp curves were not provided with check rails.
 

daikilo

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Trams typically have much shallower flange profiles than mainstream rail vehicles, so must be more susceptible to leaving their tracks on curves.

I still haven't seen any reply to why the Croydon sharp curves were not provided with check rails.

I think you answered your own question in that a check-rail would not have prevented the turn-over that happened,
 

edwin_m

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I think you answered your own question in that a check-rail would not have prevented the turn-over that happened,

Agreed. This looks as if it was an overturning event, in which case the outer (Correction: inner!) wheels would have simply lifted off the rail and a check rail would make no difference.

A check rail can prevent a flange climbing derailment.
 
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rebmcr

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Trams typically have much shallower flange profiles than mainstream rail vehicles, so must be more susceptible to leaving their tracks on curves.

I still haven't seen any reply to why the Croydon sharp curves were not provided with check rails.

I think you answered your own question in that a check-rail would not have prevented the turn-over that happened,

Agreed. This looks as if it was an overturning event, in which case the outer wheels would have simply lifted off the rail and a check rail would make no difference.

A check rail can prevent a flange climbing derailment.

In fact, if a check rail were to prevent a flange-climb, an overturn then becomes more likely.
 

All Line Rover

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Has this been mentioned on the forum yet?

BBC said:
Four drivers have admitted falling asleep while operating trams in Croydon, where seven people were killed after a tram derailed in November 2016.

Drivers said a safety device, known as "a dead man's handle", failed to activate and stop their trams.

Tram Operations Ltd, which runs the line, said driver fatigue was monitored and controls were "fully functional".

An interim report into November's crash suggested the tram was speeding and the driver may have "lost awareness".

It found there was no emergency braking and the tram had been travelling at 46mph before it crashed in a 13mph zone, near the Sandilands Junction area of Croydon.

However, a BBC investigation for the Victoria Derbyshire programme, has found that at least three trams have been recorded speeding on that same line since the derailment.

One was travelling at 40mph in a 25mph zone. Another is understood to have been speeding near the crash site.

...

Guidance from the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) safety regulator says the driver safety device should activate "in the event of driver collapse".

Further guidance also states the device should be designed "so that it cannot be kept in the operating position other than by a vigilant tram driver".

But six drivers said the device was not "fit for purpose".

One said drivers were afraid to tell management about safety device failures because they feared being sacked over falling asleep.

"You're asking somebody to come forward and admit to something that could cost them their job," he said, adding that he believed most drivers had fallen asleep at some point in the career.

The BBC has uncovered three incidents in the past decade where drivers were incapacitated.
They include a near head-on collision, a collision with buffers, and a driver failing to slow down at the line's Morden Road stop.

On that occasion, the driver was only woken when he was spotted by ticket inspectors on the platform, who radioed his cab.

In November, footage released by the Sun showed a driver who appeared to be asleep for at least 30 seconds continuing to power a tram on the line.

Transport for London told the BBC the driver safety device failed to work because the driver had not completely lost consciousness.

"If he were to completely pass out and lose consciousness then he would relax his grip," director Leon Daniels said when shown the footage.

...

Another driver told the BBC of a dead man's handle failure in May 2016.

He said a spring in the device had broken, causing the alarm and emergency braking to be initially delayed, before failing altogether.

The driver told the BBC he reported it immediately. He said he was told it was safe to continue.

"[I said] if I have a heart attack or become unconscious this tram will go through the buffers at Beckenham junction at 50mph and kill more than likely myself, the majority of people on board and around the tram.

"Only when I said that [did they say], 'Take it out of service straightaway.'"

...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39457148
 

endecotp

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The bit that got my attention was:

One said drivers were afraid to tell management about safety device failures because they feared being sacked over falling asleep

It must always be the case that failing to report an incident is treated more seriously than the incident itself, so that people have the right incentive. I thought this was long established practice in safety-critical jobs.
 

All Line Rover

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I'm not sure which angle you are approaching that from, but I believe it to be a legitimate concern. After all, if they are sacked, there is no guarantee of organisational improvements.
 

Taunton

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"If he were to completely pass out and lose consciousness then he would relax his grip," director Leon Daniels said when shown the footage.
I'm afraid Leon Daniels is showing his lack of a rail industry background with this. There have been multiple occurrences over time around the industry of drivers losing consciousness but still managing to have weight bearing on the relevant control. I know we have moved on from the old Deadman's Pedal, where this could happen only too readily, but a form of "waking subconsciousness" where you almost inadvertently maintain your position on the accelerator is well recognised in road accidents, particularly early morning accidents to heavy goods vehicles which have been driven all night leaving the road at speed.
 

QueensCurve

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It must always be the case that failing to report an incident is treated more seriously than the incident itself, so that people have the right incentive. I thought this was long established practice in safety-critical jobs.

Some employers don't seem to understand that.

Tempted to put in a link to one such non-rail employer but decided not to.
 

Antman

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The bit that got my attention was:



It must always be the case that failing to report an incident is treated more seriously than the incident itself, so that people have the right incentive. I thought this was long established practice in safety-critical jobs.

It would put management in a rather awkward position, I'm assuming there is no suggestion that drivers have been working excessive hours? Imagine an accident did happen due to a driver falling asleep, and he had told management about it previously, the inevitable question would be why was he allowed to carry on driving.
 

theageofthetra

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It doesn't matter what industry you are in, once a culture of fear is established the consequences can be very severe. The NHS whistle blowing cases lead to unnecessary deaths and a fear of reporting safety failings would appear to be a significant factor here. If I was in senior management in that organisation I would be taking a long, hard look at my position.
 
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Antman

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It doesn't matter what industry you are in, once a culture of fear is established the consequences can be very severe. The NHS whistle blowing cases lead to unnecessary deaths and a fear of reporting safety failings would appear to be a significant factor here. If I was in senior management in that organisation I would be taking a long, hard look at my position.

Culture of fear? The issue on Tramlink is with drivers themselves rather than any H&S related problems.
 

AlterEgo

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Culture of fear? The issue on Tramlink is with drivers themselves rather than any H&S related problems.

The issue is with the drivers not feeling able to report issues to their employer.

People have now died, and they'd likely not have died had drivers felt able to raise the issues outlined in the news article beforehand.
 

Antman

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The issue is with the drivers not feeling able to report issues to their employer.

People have now died, and they'd likely not have died had drivers felt able to raise the issues outlined in the news article beforehand.

I would think it would be much the same in any industry, you tell management that you are having difficulty staying awake and they are going to start asking questions about you.

Is there any evidence that driver fatigue was a factor in the fatal accident.
 

AlterEgo

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I would think it would be much the same in any industry, you tell management that you are having difficulty staying awake and they are going to start asking questions about you.

Is there any evidence that driver fatigue was a factor in the fatal accident.

It's not about fatigue.

The issue is that the dead man's handle is allegedly unfit for purpose, as some drivers found after they had fallen asleep. They were not able to report this. Had they been able to, it's likely that the driver in the crash (who we know appears to have been unresponsive for reasons unknown) would have had a dead man's handle which would have functioned properly once he became unresponsive.
 

Tetchytyke

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I would think it would be much the same in any industry, you tell management that you are having difficulty staying awake and they are going to start asking questions about you.

And that is the problem. It should be safe to report fatigue without repercussion. Fatigue is well known as one of the biggest dangers in the aviation industry, to the extent that the EU brought in rules preventing sanctions against pilots who report fatigue and promoting a "Just Culture".

Sure, if you're reporting fatigue on every early there are going to be questions about your health. But it should be safe to occasionally report that "I am too tired to safely drive" without management "asking questions".

And if drivers are not reporting on defective safety equipment because they're scared of the management, then that is absolutely terrifying.
 

Antman

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It's not about fatigue.

The issue is that the dead man's handle is allegedly unfit for purpose, as some drivers found after they had fallen asleep. They were not able to report this. Had they been able to, it's likely that the driver in the crash (who we know appears to have been unresponsive for reasons unknown) would have had a dead man's handle which would have functioned properly once he became unresponsive.

Well that's another issue, if the dead mans handle is not fit for purpose then clearly that should be bought to management attention.

I don't think it's appropriate to speculate about the crash itself but I would imagine it can be a rather monotonous job at time where it is difficult to remain fully focused?
 

Domh245

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Well that's another issue, if the dead mans handle is not fit for purpose then clearly that should be bought to management attention.

I don't think it's appropriate to speculate about the crash itself but I would imagine it can be a rather monotonous job at time where it is difficult to remain fully focused?

But how do you bring that to management's attention without admitting that you were in a position where it should have intervened...
 
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